Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Fir me the parahawk chase simply looked very lacklustre. Not a patch on previous ski chases.
  • Posts: 15,116
    I'm not a fan of TWINE anymore, I find it a frustrating film and a gigantic wasted opportunity, but it's vastly superior to DAD. Any Bond is.

    My four year old's controversial opinion: Brosnan best ever role is the narrator in Thomas the Tank Engine.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 16,382
    Mallory wrote: »
    Alexander Witt is a far better second unit director than Vic Armstrong. The action in the Craig era (apart from QoS which he didnt do, sadly), is far better than the PB era.

    Yes, he’s not great. Seemed to have a thing about shooting stuff from really far away too.
    I’d probably include the hovercraft chase from DAD in his ‘worst of’ too (although not quite as bad as the parahawk chase)- the hovercraft are slow and it’s just a bit dull on that big expanse of waste ground and looks more like an activity day you’d go to on a stag weekend than a thrilling spy chase. Some really obvious stunt doubles/mannequins too.
    Fir me the parahawk chase simply looked very lacklustre. Not a patch on previous ski chases.

    Indeed, it’s just rubbish. Even David Arnold’s score sounds bored.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited May 2021 Posts: 8,183
    Armstrong’s sequences always had a very stagey feel to them, the biggest example being the caviar factory sequence that feels like one of those live shows at an amusement park. Also there was way too much reliance on having Bond get into machine gun fire, which had been used only sparingly with all the other Bonds.

    This was likely due to trying to compete with other action films that were popular in the 90s like Schwarzenegger films. By CR, that kind of action had faded out of style.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 16,382
    Armstrong’s sequences always had a very stagey feel to them, the biggest example being the caviar factory sequence that feels like one of those live shows at an amusement park. Also there was way too much reliance on having Bond get into machine gun fire, which had been used only sparingly with all the other Bonds.

    Interesting thought; yes, now you say it there hasn't been much in the way of machine guns spraying bullets everywhere like they did for Pierce. A bit at the end of Skyfall and not much else really. And I can only think of Craig's Bond using an automatic rifle at the crater base escape in Spectre, and I actually quite like that scene because he uses it in a way I can believe he is a professional rather than just waggling it around from the hip. That bit where he just calmly aims and picks off those guys from far away is exactly how James Bond should do it if you ask me.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Once again I find myself in agreement Craig's use of the rifle at the end of SPECTRE
    is How I imagine a professional would use it. Also his wardrobe of black trousers and white shirt for me at least is very reminiscent of those 60s spy movies.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    mtm wrote: »
    Armstrong’s sequences always had a very stagey feel to them, the biggest example being the caviar factory sequence that feels like one of those live shows at an amusement park. Also there was way too much reliance on having Bond get into machine gun fire, which had been used only sparingly with all the other Bonds.

    Interesting thought; yes, now you say it there hasn't been much in the way of machine guns spraying bullets everywhere like they did for Pierce. A bit at the end of Skyfall and not much else really. And I can only think of Craig's Bond using an automatic rifle at the crater base escape in Spectre, and I actually quite like that scene because he uses it in a way I can believe he is a professional rather than just waggling it around from the hip. That bit where he just calmly aims and picks off those guys from far away is exactly how James Bond should do it if you ask me.

    I love the crater base escape. I'm sure a gun fetishist could point out some issue with what he's doing, but it's nice to see Bond aiming a weapon carefully and skillfully like that.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 16,382
    mtm wrote: »
    Armstrong’s sequences always had a very stagey feel to them, the biggest example being the caviar factory sequence that feels like one of those live shows at an amusement park. Also there was way too much reliance on having Bond get into machine gun fire, which had been used only sparingly with all the other Bonds.

    Interesting thought; yes, now you say it there hasn't been much in the way of machine guns spraying bullets everywhere like they did for Pierce. A bit at the end of Skyfall and not much else really. And I can only think of Craig's Bond using an automatic rifle at the crater base escape in Spectre, and I actually quite like that scene because he uses it in a way I can believe he is a professional rather than just waggling it around from the hip. That bit where he just calmly aims and picks off those guys from far away is exactly how James Bond should do it if you ask me.

    I love the crater base escape. I'm sure a gun fetishist could point out some issue with what he's doing, but it's nice to see Bond aiming a weapon carefully and skillfully like that.

    Yes I know what you mean: I carefully phrased it as 'he uses it in a way I can believe he is a professional' because I expected some gun nerd to appear and tell me he actually puts his little finger in the wrong place or something :D
    This isn't my first time on the internet! :)
  • Posts: 15,116
    Regarding the crater base escape and destruction, while it's pretty far fetched how little did Bond need to destroy the whole place, it doesn't bother me too much because almost every villain headquarter in Bond movies is easily destroyed.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Regarding the crater base escape and destruction, while it's pretty far fetched how little did Bond need to destroy the whole place, it doesn't bother me too much because almost every villain headquarter in Bond movies is easily destroyed.

    If Bond left a lair intact, we'd be complaining too.
  • Posts: 15,116
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Regarding the crater base escape and destruction, while it's pretty far fetched how little did Bond need to destroy the whole place, it doesn't bother me too much because almost every villain headquarter in Bond movies is easily destroyed.

    If Bond left a lair intact, we'd be complaining too.

    How often did it happen? Off the bat I can think of FYEO and TWINE. I guess Silva's lair too, as far as we know,but it was already ruins.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Ludovico wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Regarding the crater base escape and destruction, while it's pretty far fetched how little did Bond need to destroy the whole place, it doesn't bother me too much because almost every villain headquarter in Bond movies is easily destroyed.

    If Bond left a lair intact, we'd be complaining too.

    How often did it happen? Off the bat I can think of FYEO and TWINE. I guess Silva's lair too, as far as we know,but it was already ruins.

    FRWL, GF, TB, AVTAK.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    Armstrong’s sequences always had a very stagey feel to them, the biggest example being the caviar factory sequence that feels like one of those live shows at an amusement park. Also there was way too much reliance on having Bond get into machine gun fire, which had been used only sparingly with all the other Bonds.

    This was likely due to trying to compete with other action films that were popular in the 90s like Schwarzenegger films. By CR, that kind of action had faded out of style.

    Compare the caviar factory to the archives escape in GE. In the latter, you really do feel like Bond is in a real place.
  • Posts: 1,630
    Bond: And then I'll blow the entire place up. That will keep it out of the hands of evil-doers.

    M: Actually, 007, we would prefer if you kindly would kill the evil mastermind, but leave the lair intact. Her Majesty's gov'mint estimates it would cost billions to build something like that, and they would like, verymuchifyoudon'tmind, to enter afterward, dispose of the remains of the villain, and then to use that facility. In fact, if you could avoid killing or injuring the villain's minions, we think we could get them to work for us afterward. Offer them decent wages and health care and they'd be good to have working for us. They already know the facility and have been maintaining it an so on.

    Bond: (Silent for a long moment) Bean-counters !
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Since62 wrote: »
    Bond: And then I'll blow the entire place up. That will keep it out of the hands of evil-doers.

    M: Actually, 007, we would prefer if you kindly would kill the evil mastermind, but leave the lair intact. Her Majesty's gov'mint estimates it would cost billions to build something like that, and they would like, verymuchifyoudon'tmind, to enter afterward, dispose of the remains of the villain, and then to use that facility. In fact, if you could avoid killing or injuring the villain's minions, we think we could get them to work for us afterward. Offer them decent wages and health care and they'd be good to have working for us. They already know the facility and have been maintaining it an so on.

    Bond: (Silent for a long moment) Bean-counters !

    It might be a bit sinister for the UK Government to be running an enormous covert satellite dish in Cuba, for example! :)
  • Posts: 2,163
    Does make you wonder, what happens to the evil organisation after Bond has killed the main villain. Like what happens to Drax Industries, Carver Media Group, King Oil, etc. Where they are legal entities as businesses with likely hundreds of thousands of employees and multi-million pound value?
  • Posts: 15,116
    Ludovico wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Regarding the crater base escape and destruction, while it's pretty far fetched how little did Bond need to destroy the whole place, it doesn't bother me too much because almost every villain headquarter in Bond movies is easily destroyed.

    If Bond left a lair intact, we'd be complaining too.

    How often did it happen? Off the bat I can think of FYEO and TWINE. I guess Silva's lair too, as far as we know,but it was already ruins.

    FRWL, GF, TB, AVTAK.

    Yes but in at least some of them, there's a "big setting" that is destroyed or damaged in lieu of the villains hq: the Disco Volante, the blimp, even the Soviet Embassy.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    Mallory wrote: »
    Does make you wonder, what happens to the evil organisation after Bond has killed the main villain. Like what happens to Drax Industries, Carver Media Group, King Oil, etc. Where they are legal entities as businesses with likely hundreds of thousands of employees and multi-million pound value?
    I'm surprised SNL haven't thought about this one haha
  • Posts: 15,116
    Mallory wrote: »
    Does make you wonder, what happens to the evil organisation after Bond has killed the main villain. Like what happens to Drax Industries, Carver Media Group, King Oil, etc. Where they are legal entities as businesses with likely hundreds of thousands of employees and multi-million pound value?

    That's for the question thread, but we do have examples of how it goes in real life. For the James Bond universe, many of these entities are legal with only a fraction of their employees, close to the CEO, is doing anything illegal (and covertly). When said CEO dies (when the circumstances are not made public), what happens to the company is no different than what it would happen if the owner had suddenly died in an accident.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    Does make you wonder, what happens to the evil organisation after Bond has killed the main villain. Like what happens to Drax Industries, Carver Media Group, King Oil, etc. Where they are legal entities as businesses with likely hundreds of thousands of employees and multi-million pound value?
    I'm surprised SNL haven't thought about this one haha

    I feel like Austin Powers has kind of done this...
  • Posts: 1,917
    Armstrong’s sequences always had a very stagey feel to them, the biggest example being the caviar factory sequence that feels like one of those live shows at an amusement park. Also there was way too much reliance on having Bond get into machine gun fire, which had been used only sparingly with all the other Bonds.
    Perfect description of that sequence. There really doesn't even feel like much tension or excitement, more emphasis on humor than anything else, something Moore would've been more comfortable doing. Those blades seem so unwieldy and not too difficult to escape also.

    Same applies to the Parahawk ski scene as far as the staginess. Every time Bond skis by you can almost hear production assistant calling for an explosion that isn't even close. There's no spontaneity in it. TWINE definitely has maybe the least creative, interesting action in the series.
  • Posts: 1,630
    The para-hawks themselves would be problematic for such use, wouldn't they ? If you're flying one, and fire a pistol, rifle or machine gun, I don't think it would disturb its flight. But firing a rocket ? My point -- anything with strong recoil might set that para-hawk spinning or rocking ! Ha ! Funny for an Austin Powers spoof moment, but they're just not worthy for this TWINE scene. Too slow. Too vague in the controls. It would have been a fine moment for an homage to earlier Bond scenes, with a half-dozen or so armed Autogyros -- as Bond himself used in YOLT. They would have been faster, quicker, more of a threat and more exciting ! Of course -- you still need a good action director. Here's the thing -- armed auogyros coming after Bond, thereby flipping the homage scenario -- still could be used in a future film. Just the right line from Bond in the moment could be witty and provide some self-acknowledging humor. Something like "Autogyros ! I've seen THESE before !"
  • Posts: 15,116
    As much as the parahawk sequence is flawed.... The goons look creepy and menacing as hell with their face completely covered. They should have abandoned the parachute idea in preprod and just have them attack Bond and Elektra in snowmobiles. Basically redo the sequence from the ground up.
  • Posts: 1,630
    Snowmobiles ! On the surface ! "from the ground up" !!! Superb pun, Ludovico !
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    The whole sequence is crap...where the parahawks are when they collide makes no visual sense.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    My problem with that sequence is the kinetics of it all. I accept that parahawks are no F16 fighters, but the rhythm of this sequence is disappointingly low. Even Arnold struggles with that. Listen to that track. The beat is stretched and stretched just to make sure the music doesn't run faster than the people skiing or the parahawk baddies shooting their generic firearms. I love the scenery, I appreciate certain shots, like Bond jumping up while an explosion is happening behind him or Brosnan changing his victory face to an angry face. My problem is simply that this sequence aspires to be some kind of fast action scene, and fast, it ain't.

    For the record, that's a problem I have with most of the action in this film. I'm a "fast" kinda guy, even if it means doing the hard editing like in OHMSS's PTS. The Thames scene is barely "fast", the raid on the Kaviar Factory too. Whatever is going on in the sub is slow and spatially compacted, ... None of these things are negatives as such. It's just not my thing, is all. ;-)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 16,382
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    My problem with that sequence is the kinetics of it all. I accept that parahawks are no F16 fighters, but the rhythm of this sequence is disappointingly low. Even Arnold struggles with that. Listen to that track. The beat is stretched and stretched just to make sure the music doesn't run faster than the people skiing or the parahawk baddies shooting their generic firearms.

    Yes I mentioned that too, I think it's a dreadful piece of music I'm afraid. A Bond action cue shouldn't be boring, and somehow the main melody actually sounds bored itself! It kind of drifts off like it's distracted.. :)
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    For the record, that's a problem I have with most of the action in this film. I'm a "fast" kinda guy, even if it means doing the hard editing like in OHMSS's PTS. The Thames scene is barely "fast", the raid on the Kaviar Factory too. Whatever is going on in the sub is slow and spatially compacted, ... None of these things are negatives as such. It's just not my thing, is all. ;-)

    I think it's weird that the film before had two of, what I think are, the very best action scenes in the whole Bond series: the Arms Bazaar pre-titles and the BMW car park chase. They're punchy and well-shaped and have a very neat little story with inventive ideas. But then I guess you have the bike chase which does sow the seeds of the rather drawn-out and shapeless action we get in TWINE: the boat chase in TWINE in particular is really episodic (this thing happens, then they go a bit further and this thing happens etc.) and just sort of long and flat rather than the tight and punchy action of something like the remote control BMW chase.
    You can kind of spot it in the music in fact: Backseat Driver is a proper track which builds to a climax; Bike Chase and Come in 007 sort of amble along, trying to keep up the energy with a dance beat which sort of joins up the separate bits of the track.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    I do love that bike chase music, though. Big, brassy, muscular action scoring with an unironic love of the title theme devoted to its main character.

    Criticisms of the scene itself? Yeah, I can understand them.
  • Posts: 1,917
    It's interesting: Although TND is a basic Bond has to stop megalomaniac to avert WWIII scenario, it moves so fast and has fun action sequences it makes up for that, whereas TWINE tries to do something fresh in its story approach but ends up missing the mark in several ways and doesn't even have memorable action to fall back on.
  • Posts: 113
    Once I realized my issues were with Armstrong as a 2nd unit director my feelings about the action in TND/TWINE/DAD made so much more sense. The stunts are still great it's just the direction isn't really doing anything. One of the secret weapons of the later films was Arthur Wooster as 2nd unit director who really knew how to both stage action AND make the scenes play. He did do a unit on GE and some work on TWINE/DAD. The other thing no one ever realizes is that in spite of the digital changeover in effects and the terrible derided CG in DAD-model usage was still in effect for some things.

    TWINE really sticks out because there's little to no cohesion between 1st and 2nd units. intense character bit-pause for ACTION scene-character bit-ACTION-character bit-Explosion. That's where you most feel Apted's inexperience with big budget films and effects work but it does predate the modern Marvel scenario where they merely slot in a new to big franchise talent as director into the well oiled machine.

    But you may say TND still works well! And you'd be right-but that's because it's edited on a dime and under two hours as a Bond film should be...of course when you hire Peckinpah's former editor as director and really put him under the gun with little to no time and a near nonexistent post schedule that's what happens. TWINE is more relaxed and this also shows off all the flaws baked into the Purvis and Wade (who always seem to come up with cool ideas but cannot develop them) original script which Bruce Feirstein was brought into develop and polish. The scripting process really needed more time but they were locked into a film per two years at MGM's insistence and had to get it out before the millennium.


    One more opinion: GE, TND and DAD all have great sound mixes. TWINE sadly does not.
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