Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    Mallory wrote: »
    I believe Waltz is on record as not having a good time working on Spectre with Mendes, and preferred Fukunaga’s approach with NTTD. If the two of them (Waltz and Mendes) weren’t on the same page, that makes brining a character to life, who was poorly defined on the page, much more difficult.

    I agree. If the director and actor don't see eye to eye on what they're doing it's likely to show in the finished film. On the point of the character being poorly defined in the film script if only they'd used the Thunderball novel as their starting point (drawing from OHMSS and YOLT as well if they so wished) as the character of Blofeld certainly wasn't poorly defined by Fleming. Yet again it was another missed opportunity to bring laregely unused Fleming material to the screen. The Spectre meeting is clearly based on the one in the novel and the 1965 film version of Thunderball so it's a shame more from Fleming wasn't adapted. When the writers are stuck for inspiration with their original ideas they should always return to the Fleming novels.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    If I recall correctly, the stakes are Spectre getting access to the data of nine intelligence services and Bond's girlfriend blowing up.
    You're not wrong, @ProfJoeButcher. More so, Spectre had infiltrated and held important government positions to assist perpetrating their crimes.

    To me it plays into real world efforts to undercut intelligence services, the military, and more recently the police. So it struck a chord, sure, and remains relevant. Works as well as struggling to prevent a bomb from going off. And being successful. Then it doesn't go off.

    Also I didn't want harm to come to Madeleine. Like that character.

  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    If I recall correctly, the stakes are Spectre getting access to the data of nine intelligence services and Bond's girlfriend blowing up.
    You're not wrong, @ProfJoeButcher. More so, Spectre had infiltrated and held important government positions to assist perpetrating their crimes.

    To me it plays into real world efforts to undercut intelligence services, the military, and more recently the police. So it struck a chord, sure, and remains relevant. Works as well as struggling to prevent a bomb from going off. And being successful. Then it doesn't go off.

    Also I didn't want harm to come to Madeleine. Like that character.

    I also love M, and wanted him to get his position back.
  • Posts: 2,402
    Ok but why did they HAVE to stop Nine Eyes before the launch? Why would one minute after not have been fine? Isn't surveillance only useful over time?
  • edited May 2021 Posts: 1,469
    About the Nine Eyes launch, the script says "The system goes online at midnight. If that happens, SPECTRE will have control of everything". So presumably they'd be locked out of the system and unable to shut it down after that time.
  • Dragonpol wrote: »
    I feel the same way about some of the incongruous elements in Octopussy though it's one of my favourite Bond films. It has that feeling of two Bond film stories combined into one film. The classic adventure film feel of the India-set parts of the plot combined with the Cold War thriller Russian and Berlin parts of the plot. The plot doesn't gel as well together as it ought to despite the fact that I still love the film very much.

    Totally agree with you. While I take obvious delight in watching this movie, it's clear that the two plots weaken each other: as the film becomes a Cold War thriller, the character of Octopussy for exemple changes from a mysterious figure to a dupe, a victim, even though she was until now a mastermind criminal that could have been the main antagonist. These two narrative perspectives would have greatly benefited from being the subject of two separate films.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Thrasos wrote: »
    About the Nine Eyes launch, the script says "The system goes online at midnight. If that happens, SPECTRE will have control of everything". So presumably they'd be locked out of the system and unable to shut it down after that time.

    It's just an awfully dull concept. We don't have any tangible relationship with the Nine Eyes system as a maguffin because we've only had verbal confirmation of it. We've never seen what it can do nor do we know what SPECTRE's immediate plans are once it has been initiated (beyond now "being everywhere", which they already are anyway!). If they needed the system to go online in order to carry out a specific attack, the countdown would have more weight.

    As is, it's about as exciting as waiting for a Youtube live video to premiere and as a result, our focus is pushed towards the personal aspects of the film's finale which are unfortunately also flawed.

  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    Thrasos wrote: »
    About the Nine Eyes launch, the script says "The system goes online at midnight. If that happens, SPECTRE will have control of everything". So presumably they'd be locked out of the system and unable to shut it down after that time.

    It's just an awfully dull concept. We don't have any tangible relationship with the Nine Eyes system as a maguffin because we've only had verbal confirmation of it. We've never seen what it can do nor do we know what SPECTRE's immediate plans are once it has been initiated (beyond now "being everywhere", which they already are anyway!). If they needed the system to go online in order to carry out a specific attack, the countdown would have more weight.

    As is, it's about as exciting as waiting for a Youtube live video to premiere and as a result, our focus is pushed towards the personal aspects of the film's finale which are unfortunately also flawed.

    That's the weirdest thing in that entire plan: Oberhauser shows pretty comprehensively that they have full surveillance capabilities long before the system goes online. There is no explanation, that I am aware of, of what they would be able to do, that they aren't when Bond and Madeleine are in the crater base (which Bond blows up by the way, which should set that entire plan back a tiny bit...).
    On a more political bend: Do we know whether M is against Nine Eyes on principal or mainly because it is C's brainchild and could/would fall into SPECTRE's hands? After all, he is supposed to be the Head of the Secret Intelligence Service. Intelligence gathering and sharing should kind of be in his interest, shouldn't it?
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    I think there's a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B with regards to M, @ImpertinentGoon

    He certainly doesn't trust C, but he also still prefers the more "hands on" approach to intelligence gathering that the 00 section represents and that Nine Eyes would make redundant. It's just a further extension of the "old ways are the best" theme that Mendes infused into SF.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Spectre doesn't enjoy total surveillance capabilities at the start of the film. The woman at the meeting talks about how once they've completed their project to get access to intelligence networks, it will be time for "aggressive expansion". So the threat seems clear to me.

    And the idea that their schemes would be less likely to be foiled by the intelligence community were they to have complete access to everything seems at the forefront. It's suggested as well when M wants the smart blood files deleted.

    It's a shame they didn't do more with that smart blood thing. There must have been more in an earlier version. C knowing exactly where Bond is could have been fun.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Plus also it’s blood: they could have used that in some way. Blood spots, spatter, transfusion.. I dunno.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    The smart blood tech will return in NTTD, with an injecting machine for Bond and Nomi, so perhaps they may expand on its use/effects seen in SP.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    QBranch wrote: »
    The smart blood tech will return in NTTD, with an injecting machine for Bond and Nomi, so perhaps they may expand on its use/effects seen in SP.
    Maybe that's how Nomi is able to locate Bond in Norway.
  • Posts: 1,917
    Thrasos wrote: »
    About the Nine Eyes launch, the script says "The system goes online at midnight. If that happens, SPECTRE will have control of everything". So presumably they'd be locked out of the system and unable to shut it down after that time.

    It's just an awfully dull concept. We don't have any tangible relationship with the Nine Eyes system as a maguffin because we've only had verbal confirmation of it. We've never seen what it can do nor do we know what SPECTRE's immediate plans are once it has been initiated (beyond now "being everywhere", which they already are anyway!). If they needed the system to go online in order to carry out a specific attack, the countdown would have more weight.

    As is, it's about as exciting as waiting for a Youtube live video to premiere and as a result, our focus is pushed towards the personal aspects of the film's finale which are unfortunately also flawed.
    Doesn't all of that smack of the climax of a Mission Impossible film with Ethan Hunt trying to get some key or computer function to stop the launch of the program as the clock counts down as the rest of the team fights the others? And although he's with SPECTRE, C himself is like the shadowy CIA director who is against the IMF's reckless activities all film until the climax when they're convinced of the threat.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Maybe that's how Nomi is able to locate Bond in Norway.
    Good point! I was just wondering the other day, about how she found him.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Spectre doesn't enjoy total surveillance capabilities at the start of the film. The woman at the meeting talks about how once they've completed their project to get access to intelligence networks, it will be time for "aggressive expansion". So the threat seems clear to me.

    And the idea that their schemes would be less likely to be foiled by the intelligence community were they to have complete access to everything seems at the forefront. It's suggested as well when M wants the smart blood files deleted.

    I don t understand how SPECTRE is any worse than the gang who is already in control. Doesn t make much difference to the rest of us, does it?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited May 2021 Posts: 18,270
    Spectre doesn't enjoy total surveillance capabilities at the start of the film. The woman at the meeting talks about how once they've completed their project to get access to intelligence networks, it will be time for "aggressive expansion". So the threat seems clear to me.

    And the idea that their schemes would be less likely to be foiled by the intelligence community were they to have complete access to everything seems at the forefront. It's suggested as well when M wants the smart blood files deleted.

    I don t understand how SPECTRE is any worse than the gang who is already in control. Doesn t make much difference to the rest of us, does it?

    That recalls QoS and Gregg Beam sarcastically saying we should do business just with good guys all the time. That's not how the real world works as (for just one example) all of the dictators armed by the Western powers could attest. However, this level of introspection and self-doubt about how British Intelligence is no better than those it works against is not to be found in the patriotic works of Fleming but rather in those of Le Carré, Deighton et al. It does feature in the Bond films though from time to time.
  • Bentley007Bentley007 Manitoba, Canada
    Posts: 575
    Denbigh wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    The smart blood tech will return in NTTD, with an injecting machine for Bond and Nomi, so perhaps they may expand on its use/effects seen in SP.
    Maybe that's how Nomi is able to locate Bond in Norway.
    This would be another excellent way to provide some redemption to Spectre. Not that I believe its needed but would be nice for more to see Spectre for the fun, over the top Bond adventure it is.
  • Posts: 15,116
    Ok but why did they HAVE to stop Nine Eyes before the launch? Why would one minute after not have been fine? Isn't surveillance only useful over time?

    I work in cybersecurity (recent position, but still) and I can tell you why: it is vital to be be proactive and not reactive. You predict and prevent. A minute after there's a breach of security and it's already too late: someone can do terrible damages to your organisation(s).
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ok but why did they HAVE to stop Nine Eyes before the launch? Why would one minute after not have been fine? Isn't surveillance only useful over time?

    I work in cybersecurity (recent position, but still) and I can tell you why: it is vital to be be proactive and not reactive. You predict and prevent. A minute after there's a breach of security and it's already too late: someone can do terrible damages to your organisation(s).

    Exactly. Being alert and on attack mode is better than being defensive after the fact of the security breach and reacting to events rather than anticipating and preventing them occurring in the first place. It all comes down to the old thriller staple of the ticking clock of the bomb going off or the nefarious deed occurring be it an assassination or something else. You can't put the genie back in the bottle once it's gotten out.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 16,382
    Also whereas C had corrupted the U.K.’s security, presumably the other countries which signed up to Nine Eyes hadn’t been compromised yet but would have been once the system went online..?
    To be honest I do find it a tangible enough threat: the idea that a network like Spectre could gain that additional power is a good enough objective for MI6 to battle, I think.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    I don't work in cybersecurity, but I'd just say that if you're in charge of an intelligence agency, zero minutes is about the amount of time you want the world's biggest baddies to have access to your data.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited May 2021 Posts: 8,216
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Thrasos wrote: »
    About the Nine Eyes launch, the script says "The system goes online at midnight. If that happens, SPECTRE will have control of everything". So presumably they'd be locked out of the system and unable to shut it down after that time.

    It's just an awfully dull concept. We don't have any tangible relationship with the Nine Eyes system as a maguffin because we've only had verbal confirmation of it. We've never seen what it can do nor do we know what SPECTRE's immediate plans are once it has been initiated (beyond now "being everywhere", which they already are anyway!). If they needed the system to go online in order to carry out a specific attack, the countdown would have more weight.

    As is, it's about as exciting as waiting for a Youtube live video to premiere and as a result, our focus is pushed towards the personal aspects of the film's finale which are unfortunately also flawed.
    Doesn't all of that smack of the climax of a Mission Impossible film with Ethan Hunt trying to get some key or computer function to stop the launch of the program as the clock counts down as the rest of the team fights the others? And although he's with SPECTRE, C himself is like the shadowy CIA director who is against the IMF's reckless activities all film until the climax when they're convinced of the threat.

    You're not far off, @BT3366! If I'm not mistaken, both Ghost Protocol and Fallout utilise the scenario you describe there, but both countdowns were serving a naturally more immediate nuclear threat rather than a computer programme/system.

    It's a pity that they chose to go with such a bland and underdeveloped not-a-maguffin in SP, especially after the hacking stuff in SF was all so stylish in comparison.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Thrasos wrote: »
    About the Nine Eyes launch, the script says "The system goes online at midnight. If that happens, SPECTRE will have control of everything". So presumably they'd be locked out of the system and unable to shut it down after that time.

    It's just an awfully dull concept. We don't have any tangible relationship with the Nine Eyes system as a maguffin because we've only had verbal confirmation of it. We've never seen what it can do nor do we know what SPECTRE's immediate plans are once it has been initiated (beyond now "being everywhere", which they already are anyway!). If they needed the system to go online in order to carry out a specific attack, the countdown would have more weight.

    As is, it's about as exciting as waiting for a Youtube live video to premiere and as a result, our focus is pushed towards the personal aspects of the film's finale which are unfortunately also flawed.
    Doesn't all of that smack of the climax of a Mission Impossible film with Ethan Hunt trying to get some key or computer function to stop the launch of the program as the clock counts down as the rest of the team fights the others? And although he's with SPECTRE, C himself is like the shadowy CIA director who is against the IMF's reckless activities all film until the climax when they're convinced of the threat.
    It's a pity that they chose to go with a fairly bland and underdeveloped computer programme maguffin in SP, especially after the hacking stuff in SF was all so stylish in comparison.
    +1
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Spectre doesn't really have a MacGuffin at all.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    Spectre doesn't really have a MacGuffin at all.

    No, I agree. That's not what a MacGuffin is defined as.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited May 2021 Posts: 8,216
    Fair enough. The driving force behind the villainous plot, then. You know what I meant either way, I'm sure! :)
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    Fair enough. The driving force behind the villainous plot, then. You know what I meant either way, I'm sure! :)

    Of course.
  • Posts: 15,116
    I just read this article below and my reaction: Hell no!

    https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/amazon-reportedly-james-bond-scifi/amp/
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I just read this article below and my reaction: Hell no!

    https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/amazon-reportedly-james-bond-scifi/amp/

    I wouldn't worry to much about that one, considering the publication, @Ludovico. They are well known for creating fiction.
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