Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    TSWLM is definitely the quintessential/most iconic of Moore's tenure, but I hold OP in regard right up there with it. There's certainly more Fleming in OP, and despite his age Moore's performance is arguably better and more rounded/nuanced as well. Add to that a leading lady that actually has a sense of genuine chemistry and feels as though she'd make a longterm partner for Bond and you've got a recipe for a super underrated film in my book.

    Not to mention OP has some of the best stunts in the series. I think the only thing from TSWLM that could measure up is the Union Jack parachute moment.
  • Posts: 207
    Agreed. There should be a spin-off thread.

    Back to controversy: Is Octopussy one of the “serious” Bond films? Or one of the fantastical, over the top ones?

    I think it balances both, and that's why it's one of my favorite.
  • Posts: 1,917
    Does this make Octopussy the quintessential Moore film then?
    A yes from me. I know TSWLM for many years was considered the standard for the Moore era. Having not seen it on release has brought it down in my rankings and I saw MR first. Beyond that, though, it's very much a remake of YOLT and, as author John Brosnan of The James Bond in the Cinema said, a collection of greatest hits as far as the action set pieces. Stromberg also gets my vote for weakest main villain in the series.

    LALD seems to be getting a lot more love these days too.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    Bond's clown costume is the fulcrum that perfectly balances the disparate tones of the movie.

    It's essential to OP.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    In my humble opinion, there are two types of Moore Bond films. One is the "fantasy-adventure-anything goes" type (the non-Glen Bonds), the other is the "real world" type (the Glen Bonds). I think TSWLM is the essential Moore Bond of the first type, while OP is the essential Moore Bond of the second, even more so than FYEO in fact, because OP, like Moore, treats Bond more tongue-in-cheek.

    The funny thing is that my favourite Bonds of both types would be MR and FYEO respectively.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    I think Moore's films, and indeed his performances, can be quite easily split into three with his directors. The first two Hamilton films are lower key with Roger being made to play it with a bit too much Connery in the mix leading to a slightly uncomfortable portrayal; then we have the big and colourful Gilberts with Roger at his most laid back and comfortable; then we have the Glens which kind of hit a mid point of the two and go more real-world to some extent, with Roger's characterisation going a bit more serious when needed too.
  • Posts: 1,630
    It is ironic that Hamilton directed the two lower-key films, considering his first Bond film was GF ! GF brought on the big, spectacular flashy Bond films -- though, on reflection, moreso in spirit. At any rate, moving on, Gilbert directed YOLT so he was a natural for TSWLM, and it is greatly appreciated that he improved on it the second time, and was the beneficiary of having a more enthusiastic actor on just his 3rd Bond film. Unfortunately, by the time the original crew made YOLT there was a distracting amount of media attention during production, a thin script, a rather non-threatening -- albeit iconic in his own way -- Blofeld, a relatively tapped out Connery on his fifth film, made in a very brief time and with filming periods getting longer and longer...I've never understood, btw, why he looked so greasy/sweaty in portions of YOLT, but not in any of the other films. Was it a bit of cinema verite, even in such an over-the-top (literally) film ? But for TSWLM the dynamics were much more positive.
  • Posts: 631
    I’m not convinced there actually is a quintessential Moore film. By choosing one you miss the nuances that he brought in the others. TSWLM is probably the closest to a Greatest-Hits thing but you don’t really get the hard-edged Moore that you see in FYEO or in the race to the circus in OP.

    There isn’t a single film that captures everything Moore brought to the series, IMO.
    BT3366 wrote: »
    LALD seems to be getting a lot more love these days too.

    That’s because it’s great!!

    Personally I think Kananga is the best villain of the entire Moore era.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    I’m not convinced there actually is a quintessential Moore film. By choosing one you miss the nuances that he brought in the others. TSWLM is probably the closest to a Greatest-Hits thing but you don’t really get the hard-edged Moore that you see in FYEO or in the race to the circus in OP.

    I don't think there's an enormous world of difference to him slapping his tie away from Sandor on the edge of that building to kicking the car over the cliff in FYEO. He also shoots Stromberg about five times in cold blood, and no quip after.
  • Posts: 631
    Yes that’s a good point, I had forgotten about him shooting Stromberg.
  • Posts: 1,596
    @mtm That is an insightful point about Moore's performances. I'm not sure "low key" is accurate, but there's certainly different flavors with all three directors, as there should be. The films are very interesting when you look at them from directorial influence. I mean, just look at Young directed Connery vs. Hamilton directed Connery.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited June 2021 Posts: 6,296
    mtm wrote: »
    I’m not convinced there actually is a quintessential Moore film. By choosing one you miss the nuances that he brought in the others. TSWLM is probably the closest to a Greatest-Hits thing but you don’t really get the hard-edged Moore that you see in FYEO or in the race to the circus in OP.

    I don't think there's an enormous world of difference to him slapping his tie away from Sandor on the edge of that building to kicking the car over the cliff in FYEO. He also shoots Stromberg about five times in cold blood, and no quip after.

    I've always found Stromberg's an odd death, as if emotionally it is meant for Blofeld and is a holdover from the many drafts.

    We also get a strangely bloodthirsty Bond in GE and TND, but I chalk that up to the '90s action hero tropes of the time.
  • Posts: 1,917
    Since62 wrote: »
    It is ironic that Hamilton directed the two lower-key films, considering his first Bond film was GF ! GF brought on the big, spectacular flashy Bond films -- though, on reflection, moreso in spirit. At any rate, moving on, Gilbert directed YOLT so he was a natural for TSWLM, and it is greatly appreciated that he improved on it the second time, and was the beneficiary of having a more enthusiastic actor on just his 3rd Bond film. Unfortunately, by the time the original crew made YOLT there was a distracting amount of media attention during production, a thin script, a rather non-threatening -- albeit iconic in his own way -- Blofeld, a relatively tapped out Connery on his fifth film, made in a very brief time and with filming periods getting longer and longer...I've never understood, btw, why he looked so greasy/sweaty in portions of YOLT, but not in any of the other films. Was it a bit of cinema verite, even in such an over-the-top (literally) film ? But for TSWLM the dynamics were much more positive.

    Good observations. Maibaum being back for TSWLM and Wood worked better than Dahl. YOLT just seems the most off of the classic '60s era.

    You're right about Connery looking less than his best in YOLT and that only adds to my frustration with the film. There's a nice shot of him sweating after defeating the assassin in Osato's office as he's breaking into the safe that makes sense. But you can tell he's gained weight and the clothing he wears throughout isn't especially flattering. The best look he has is the Naval officer's outfit in his briefing with M. The heat of Japan couldn't have helped.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2021 Posts: 16,382
    @mtm That is an insightful point about Moore's performances. I'm not sure "low key" is accurate, but there's certainly different flavors with all three directors, as there should be. The films are very interesting when you look at them from directorial influence. I mean, just look at Young directed Connery vs. Hamilton directed Connery.

    Yeah 'low key' isn't quite right but I couldn't think of a good way of summing it up! :)
    You're right about Connery of course but I must admit I find the differences in Roger's Bond between directors more stark. He even gets a little more cuddly and 'new man'-ish with Glen.

    It also puts pay to the lie that Roger Moore could only act in one way: he didn't even play Bond in only one way.
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I’m not convinced there actually is a quintessential Moore film. By choosing one you miss the nuances that he brought in the others. TSWLM is probably the closest to a Greatest-Hits thing but you don’t really get the hard-edged Moore that you see in FYEO or in the race to the circus in OP.

    I don't think there's an enormous world of difference to him slapping his tie away from Sandor on the edge of that building to kicking the car over the cliff in FYEO. He also shoots Stromberg about five times in cold blood, and no quip after.

    I've always found Stromberg's an odd death, as if emotionally it is meant for Blofeld and is a holdover from the many drafts.

    Yes, agreed; it is a bit out of nowhere. Bond seems genuinely angry with him (which is fine of course, he tried to blow up the world) but it almost feels personal, and yet for no reason.
    echo wrote: »
    We also get a strangely bloodthirsty Bond in GE and TND, but I chalk that up to the '90s action hero tropes of the time.

    Yeah, Bond murdering all of those innocent Russian soldiers in St Petersburg in GE is a hard one to reconcile. Imagine all of the years of diplomatic talks needed after that.

    Consider if Roger's Bond had breezed through the streets of San Francisco in AVTAK happily mowing down police officers with a machine gun- it would be no different! :)
  • Posts: 1,630
    Proposal: Stromberg should have been portrayed by Patrick Duffy....Discuss ?
  • Posts: 1,469
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    The funny thing is that my favourite Bonds of both types would be MR and FYEO respectively.
    I respect your choices here...two fine and exciting films that I like a lot too.
  • Posts: 1,394
    LALD looks like a low budget TV movie compared to the previous couple of entries.The “ action climax “ takes place on a small set and Kanangas death is just silly.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I don't agree that it feels like a low budget TV movie, but I do agree regarding the climax. They spent so much of the budget on the boat chase that it ended up leaving very little for the actual climax, which is a very truncated version of what Fleming wrote. We wouldn't even get a proper adaptation of that sequence until FYEO.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Do we know why the aspect ratio got narrower for those first two Rogers? It certainly doesn't help the feeling that they've got a bit less grand and cinematic.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    mtm wrote: »
    Do we know why the aspect ratio got narrower for those first two Rogers? It certainly doesn't help the feeling that they've got a bit less grand and cinematic.

    I think it was about dialing things back to an extent after DAF had Blofeld hijacking a space laser satellite. They wanted to start off Moore on a smaller scale mission no different than how Connery originally did with his first films. The aspect ratio reflected that scale. So once they got to TSWLM it felt right to finally give Moore a mission that broadened the scales, thus returned to a wider aspect ratio.


    Personally, I don't think wider aspect ratios really make things more "epic". It doesn't matter what aspect ratio a film is so long as the filmmakers can still make it feel grand. After all, are all the square aspect ratio films from the first 50 years of cinema are "less" cinematic?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2021 Posts: 16,382
    mtm wrote: »
    Do we know why the aspect ratio got narrower for those first two Rogers? It certainly doesn't help the feeling that they've got a bit less grand and cinematic.

    I think it was about dialing things back to an extent after DAF had Blofeld hijacking a space laser satellite. They wanted to start off Moore on a smaller scale mission no different than how Connery originally did with his first films. The aspect ratio reflected that scale. So once they got to TSWLM it felt right to finally give Moore a mission that broadened the scales, thus returned to a wider aspect ratio.

    Is that what they've said? Seems a bit mad and not really like the Bond producers to think that way. Their mindset over the years has always seemed to be to make the next Bond film like it might be the last and throw everything at it. 'Biggest Bond Ever' and all that.
    It would seem odd if they actually planned some stepping stones films before big ones. I thought Spy was bigger than its predecessors because that's the one where Cubby got sole control and he made it like he thought it should be made.

    Personally, I don't think wider aspect ratios really make things more "epic". It doesn't matter what aspect ratio a film is so long as the filmmakers can still make it feel grand. After all, are all the square aspect ratio films from the first 50 years of cinema are "less" cinematic?

    Well yeah, I think they are a bit.

    Depends on how strict you're keeping your definition of 'cinematic' I guess.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Do we know why the aspect ratio got narrower for those first two Rogers? It certainly doesn't help the feeling that they've got a bit less grand and cinematic.

    I think it was about dialing things back to an extent after DAF had Blofeld hijacking a space laser satellite. They wanted to start off Moore on a smaller scale mission no different than how Connery originally did with his first films. The aspect ratio reflected that scale. So once they got to TSWLM it felt right to finally give Moore a mission that broadened the scales, thus returned to a wider aspect ratio.

    Is that what they've said? Seems a bit mad and not really like the Bond producers to think that way. Their mindset over the years has always seemed to be to make the next Bond film like it might be the last and throw everything at it. 'Biggest Bond Ever' and all that.
    It would seem odd if they actually planned some stepping stones films before big ones. I thought Spy was bigger than its predecessors because that's the one where Cubby got sole control and he made it like he thought it should be made.

    We see that with Bond all the time through the years. Whenever the series gets too big we see it scale down. Like MR to FYEO. DAD to CR. In the instance of DAF to LALD, they returned to the narrower aspect ratio, and didn't go back to the wider one until it was called for.
  • Posts: 1,630
    It was a stupid death for Mr Big -- who finally did get "big" -- because he was somehow inflated AND elevated, and exploded because he hit the ceiling so hard with his stretched out body...a whole movie just to get to that ?!? That wasn't anything but compressed air, as I recall. Even a toy balloon, filled with air, does not float up to the ceiling. You need helium for that. And shoving it in his mouth -- does that make it open wide somehow, such that all the air comes out ? And if it does, doesn't it come out the man's mouth ? It was stupid from the moment it first was screened, and not just something I reflected upon later. Not the only stupid moment, either. In OHMSS Bond does not bother to go check that Blofeld is dead, or injured and needs more "help" to attain a fine state of deaaaad. Nope.
    As with so many stooopid things in these (and other films), a quick and easy revision of the script would take care of it.
    LALD -- give Bond a high pressure hose, with helium (for whatever reason but say so along the way), which he gets into the villain (one end or the other) and it does the rest. Could even show it work on a shark first, and then two guys battle it out for who gets to blow up -- literally -- the other.
    OHMSS -- if Bond goes back and sees Blofeld is not there, you'd need some reason that Bond leaves regardless of not seeing Blofeld's body. That's not easy. He cared about getting the guy. Could have Bond see the body drop from the branch, quite dead-looking, perhaps sees a spray of blood. Bond gets swept away by a pair of emergency medical folks into an ambulance to be checked. Maybe even have Bond ask the medical people "what about that guy ?" and a med person kneeling over the fallen body of Blofeld shakes his head, as if to say, "too late for this guy."
    SP -- Bond is using a boat left by other MI6 folks. Have the boat equipped with a powerful automatic fire rifle of very large caliber -- and have that set up and described earlier. So THEN when he shoots a helicopter down, with both the chopper and his own vehicle in motion, from a distance, he gets off more than a shot or two, and not from a handgun.
    Of course, I also would ensure each film ends on or in the water, as they did at first -- including GF which messed that up !
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Do we know why the aspect ratio got narrower for those first two Rogers? It certainly doesn't help the feeling that they've got a bit less grand and cinematic.

    I think it was about dialing things back to an extent after DAF had Blofeld hijacking a space laser satellite. They wanted to start off Moore on a smaller scale mission no different than how Connery originally did with his first films. The aspect ratio reflected that scale. So once they got to TSWLM it felt right to finally give Moore a mission that broadened the scales, thus returned to a wider aspect ratio.

    Is that what they've said? Seems a bit mad and not really like the Bond producers to think that way. Their mindset over the years has always seemed to be to make the next Bond film like it might be the last and throw everything at it. 'Biggest Bond Ever' and all that.
    It would seem odd if they actually planned some stepping stones films before big ones. I thought Spy was bigger than its predecessors because that's the one where Cubby got sole control and he made it like he thought it should be made.

    We see that with Bond all the time through the years. Whenever the series gets too big we see it scale down. Like MR to FYEO. DAD to CR. In the instance of DAF to LALD, they returned to the narrower aspect ratio, and didn't go back to the wider one until it was called for.

    Those ones aren’t really smaller scale though, just different in tone. There is something about those first two Rogers which feels slightly less ambitious at times. The rather small and unpopulated villains’ lairs for example, both having Bond-less PTS…
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,118
    There are two PTS's I absolutely love that I don't see too much popping up in best ofs.

    TMWTGG and AVTAK.

    The first one is really atmospherical and introduces the villain and his weapon expertly. Also love the blatant Tabasco ad that's been squeezed in :)).

    The second one is Bond behind enemy lines, which is always a treat. Great stunts and score. Love the Iceberg sub too. Wouldn't mind taking that one for a spin, or uhm float/dive.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    Since62 wrote: »
    It was a stupid death for Mr Big -- who finally did get "big" -- because he was somehow inflated AND elevated, and exploded because he hit the ceiling so hard with his stretched out body...a whole movie just to get to that ?!? That wasn't anything but compressed air, as I recall. Even a toy balloon, filled with air, does not float up to the ceiling. You need helium for that. And shoving it in his mouth -- does that make it open wide somehow, such that all the air comes out ? And if it does, doesn't it come out the man's mouth ? It was stupid from the moment it first was screened, and not just something I reflected upon later. Not the only stupid moment, either. In OHMSS Bond does not bother to go check that Blofeld is dead, or injured and needs more "help" to attain a fine state of deaaaad. Nope.
    As with so many stooopid things in these (and other films), a quick and easy revision of the script would take care of it.
    LALD -- give Bond a high pressure hose, with helium (for whatever reason but say so along the way), which he gets into the villain (one end or the other) and it does the rest. Could even show it work on a shark first, and then two guys battle it out for who gets to blow up -- literally -- the other.
    OHMSS -- if Bond goes back and sees Blofeld is not there, you'd need some reason that Bond leaves regardless of not seeing Blofeld's body. That's not easy. He cared about getting the guy. Could have Bond see the body drop from the branch, quite dead-looking, perhaps sees a spray of blood. Bond gets swept away by a pair of emergency medical folks into an ambulance to be checked. Maybe even have Bond ask the medical people "what about that guy ?" and a med person kneeling over the fallen body of Blofeld shakes his head, as if to say, "too late for this guy."
    SP -- Bond is using a boat left by other MI6 folks. Have the boat equipped with a powerful automatic fire rifle of very large caliber -- and have that set up and described earlier. So THEN when he shoots a helicopter down, with both the chopper and his own vehicle in motion, from a distance, he gets off more than a shot or two, and not from a handgun.
    Of course, I also would ensure each film ends on or in the water, as they did at first -- including GF which messed that up !

    Yes, the LALD Mr Big death is genuinely the only moment in the series that I am embarrassed by. (Maybe also the scene in OP - which I otherwise love - when Bond points the camera at the lady's cleavage. Horrible). Big's death is cartoonish, and doesn't go with the rest of the film. It completely takes the viewer out of the narrative and looks quite frankly f****** stupid and completely incompetent from a filmmaking perspective. When I saw this on the big screen people burst out laughing, and not in a good way. Embarrassing is the only word I can use. The nonsense science behind why he elevates is the least of the problem!

    With OHMSS I suppose they wanted the surprise of the post wedding attack. If we had seen Blofeld had escaped audiences would have anticipated the attack. When I saw this on the big screen those people who hadn't seen the film previously were completely shocked and silenced by the ending. It really had an impact. But yes, it doesn't make sense for nobody to check the lack of body.

    As for the end of SP, it's always been utter rubbish. And as has been stated many many times, Bond's small calibre bullets would have been lucky to even touch the helicopter, let alone shoot it down.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    There are two PTS's I absolutely love that I don't see too much popping up in best ofs.

    TMWTGG and AVTAK.

    The first one is really atmospherical and introduces the villain and his weapon expertly. Also love the blatant Tabasco ad that's been squeezed in :)).

    The second one is Bond behind enemy lines, which is always a treat. Great stunts and score. Love the Iceberg sub too. Wouldn't mind taking that one for a spin, or uhm float/dive.

    That actually is fairly controversial liking the AVTAK opening, but I’m absolutely with you! I think it’s brilliant fun.
  • mtm wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    There are two PTS's I absolutely love that I don't see too much popping up in best ofs.

    TMWTGG and AVTAK.

    The first one is really atmospherical and introduces the villain and his weapon expertly. Also love the blatant Tabasco ad that's been squeezed in :)).

    The second one is Bond behind enemy lines, which is always a treat. Great stunts and score. Love the Iceberg sub too. Wouldn't mind taking that one for a spin, or uhm float/dive.

    That actually is fairly controversial liking the AVTAK opening, but I’m absolutely with you! I think it’s brilliant fun.

    I like the AVTAK PTS. I feel like if the original score was edited in and the California Girls music was removed, it would be appreciated a lot more.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    mtm wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    There are two PTS's I absolutely love that I don't see too much popping up in best ofs.

    TMWTGG and AVTAK.

    The first one is really atmospherical and introduces the villain and his weapon expertly. Also love the blatant Tabasco ad that's been squeezed in :)).

    The second one is Bond behind enemy lines, which is always a treat. Great stunts and score. Love the Iceberg sub too. Wouldn't mind taking that one for a spin, or uhm float/dive.

    That actually is fairly controversial liking the AVTAK opening, but I’m absolutely with you! I think it’s brilliant fun.

    I like the AVTAK PTS. I feel like if the original score was edited in and the California Girls music was removed, it would be appreciated a lot more.

    Yes because the score is great other than that. I think it's a really great PTS personally.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    I’ve never seen a James Bond PTS that I didn’t like. That includes video games.
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