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Sure, I talked about all of it. I also said I was generally confident in EON to do things well, though I could see why others were more concerned. And I would have brought up Asian stereotypes in Rogue One as an example, absolutely. But "you said that you couldn't imagine Nomi being humiliated by Bond in NTTD because of diversity and all that" is well-poisoning and inaccurate.
Sure? But you're advocating contrivance for appearance's sake. YOLT would have been better off without the wedding scene anyway! I understand that LALD has no nice Black people except for the nice Black people that are in it, but I'm not sure why the film should have a third and possibly fourth funeral procession involving nice or neutral people.
I suspect that if all of LALD were set in Harlem, you'd have had more of what you get in YOLT. I see that difference. But YOLT has more "show the country for the sake of it" than LALD does, and I generally wouldn't want too much of that in any movie for any location. (I don't care for YOLT)
Your actual phrasing was: "Or put it this way: if instead of Nomi, the new 00 was a guy called Norman, and he acted like a jerkoff in the trailer, nobody would have any doubt that Bond can humiliate the living daylights out of him in the film. With Nomi, that's extremely unlikely." In direct reply to a post about 'the concept of "woke agenda"'.
I don't know if you think I'm trying to improve the movie by adding bits: I'm not talking about whether it's good or bad, simply whether the film creates a bit of a racist atmosphere around the black community.
I don't find YOLT to be contrived in the way it manages not to portray an entire culture as bad.
Well it's obviously fine to not like some qualities of YOLT, but I'm not sure that's massively connected to whether LALD is a bit racist or not and you brought up YOLT in the debate in the first place. I think it's choices LALD chooses to make rather than things it decides to leave out which gives that impression, as I've already explained. I think 007HallY put it well in his post above. Look, either you see it or you don't, we're going around in circles now.
Including a quote from what I was replying to is more well-poisoning, well done. But I stand by my quote absolutely. It is reasonable to expect that Norman would fair game to a greater extent than Nomi would on the basis of other films. Again, The Guardian anticipated the same thing. (Edit: notice my quote doesn't refer to Nomi's or "Norman's" race. It's wasn't the point)
I definitely do not think you are trying to improve movies, no. Adding unneeded scenes doesn't improve movies, generally. Had they added such scenes, we could be debating how offensive those were, in retrospect! ;-)
I guess fundamentally we disagree that it's racist to have a sinister funeral scene without showing a neutral/noble funeral scene. Or beneficial on any level. That's okay.
In any case, if anything in LALD gets me a little squirmy, it's the faux Haiti stuff!
This sounds good to me, and if it makes the movie better, great!
It's what the conversation was about. You were talking about "blandly noble or hypercompetent women and PoC". You decided what was unlikely to happen with Nomi, you got it wrong.
I don't know what you're talking about now. I never suggested adding any scenes. I said what the scene wasn't.
This is strawmanning now, so I think it's time to wrap it up.
I also stand by my full quote you edited:
And
Of course nothing in that thread is really relevant to this.
1. Bach is rather wooden as Anya.
2. I think TMWTGG is underrated, but maybe not the most.
3. I've never been a FYEO fan, but it dominates AVTAK.
4. LALD should've aged quickly soon after 1973. I'm surprised by the love it gets from a lot of fans today.
5. Can't say whether that scene is the most consequential or no.
6. Dalton isn't overly physically convincing, but he comes off with a toughness and aggressiveness that helps his case and that Moore didn't display. Besides that, many of Moore's physical scenes seemed slow and overly choreographed.
7. Dalton didn't have star power, no. What he did have was the air of a convincing Fleming-influenced Bond.
8. I could take TLD as a template, although I do like some of the over-the-top films too.
9. The Miami sequence is fine as is. If any Craig era action scene needed trimmed it was the video game-like infiltration of Saffin's base in NTTD.
10. Lazenby is just fine and the screenplay, direction and actors surrounding him help make it all great.
11. The Piz Gloria escape is far and away the best snow action sequence in a Bond film and among the best action scenes, but don't know it was the tip top.
12. Agree, GE was important but it is overrated. I've just never seen the greatness others do.
13. I've never understood why so many think Brosnan deserved another film and the belief it would've necessarily been the fitting end to his tenure they think it would be. It would've likely been along the lines of DAD.
14. I'd need to have examples of said elements the Brosnan era tackled first and better to weigh in.
15. Possibly, although LTK may nip it.
16. Agree. With TND, I thought Arnold recaptured the Barry feel, but his admission he put everything into that score in case he'd never get another shot made the others rather disappointing to me as they never recaptured TND's freshness with a few exceptions, especially in CR/QoS.
17. I like Gray, especially when he seems more serious, not sure why.
18. DAF is witty and enjoyable, but sometimes at the expense of action and suspense. I rather like the sharp wit of TB, which doesn't lose those qualities by making humor the bigger focus.
19. OP is the better and more entertaining movie. NSNA is a disappointment with some entertaining sequences, but I can't imagine it being influential as it repeats so much from TB and the Eon series.
20. I don't see how 1995-2002 was a peak of any kind. It seems more like a placeholder, one that tries to introduce new things and take minor chances while clinging to the formula, while the Craig era took the real chances, was more memorable and will age better.
It is so influential that sometimes it seems like a parody of future films.
I wouldn’t say weak link. Not the best acting from a Bond girl, but I think it works for the character’s more by the book manner, so I can forgive the stilted line readings at points. I think the story is effective enough to keep me engaged with the character.
With MR/OHMSS being embraced, TMWTGG is the most underrated
I think TMWTGG is one of the weaker Bond films, but it has its moments. I wouldn’t call it underrated though.
FYEO is Moore’s weakest, not AVTAK
I’d agree actually.
LALD hasn’t aged well
In many ways yes. Apart from the racial depictions just discussed, it’s like most of Guy Hamilton’s Bond films in the sense that I think it comes off as less cinematic than other Bond films.
QoS’s deleted final scene is the most consequential in the series
I think it involved White dying? I don’t know…
Dalton wasn’t any more physically convincing than Roger
I’d actually argue Moore was a more convincing fighter in his early films than many make him out to be. I don’t think he had Connery, Craig, or even Lazenby’s physicality, but I find him convincing in the dressing room fight in TMWTGG. Or the rooftop one in TSWLM.
Dalton was fine. Like Moore I don’t think he was the most physical Bond actor, but he was younger and could jump/run around for a lot of sequences, which was obviously a contrast to Moore’s later tenure.
Dalton is a great actor but lacks star power
I agree.
TLD is the ideal template for James Bond films
I don’t know about ideal template… I like the film, but it has its flaws. I don’t think any of the villains stand out overly well, especially when you compare them to the multiple villains in FRWL (in fact I’d argue TLD takes some of its story aspects from FRWL). But I wouldn’t be disappointed if certain ideas in it were revisited for a later Bond film.
The Miami Airport sequence in CR should’ve been trimmed or removed
Story wise, it’s what makes Le Chiffre turn to gambling in order to get the money he’s lost back. So no. It’s one of the most important bits of the story.
OHMSS is great because of Lazenby, not despite him
I would disagree.
The Piz Gloria ski escape remains the best action sequence
I don’t know about best, but I’d say one of the best.
GE is important, and I still like it, but overrated
Depends on what you mean by overrated. I think it’s one of the best Bond films. It has its flaws I suppose (every film does).
Brosnan was a popular Bond who deserved five films
I don’t think a fifth Brosnan film would have been better than CR. So I disagree.
The Brosnan era tackled certain Craig era elements first and better
I wouldn’t say better, but a lot of TWINE is in SF.
NTTD is the best final film for a Bond actor
I prefer LTK, but it’s definitely one of the better ones!
Despite good work on CR/QoS, Arnold never topped his TND score
I have no opinion on that.
Charles Gray had the best demeanour for Blofeld
I think he’s fitting for DAF, but I prefer Savalas.
DAF has the wittiest script in the series
It’s very witty, yes. I guess I’d agree.
OP is the better movie but NSNA is entertaining and influential
I don’t enjoy NSNA much. I don’t know about influential either (if we’re going by what film did what first, you may as well argue CR ‘67 influenced NTTD, but I don’t think that’s the case in practice).
Bond will always be popular, but 1995-2002 was the modern peak
For me I’d say no (objectively Craig’s films were more financially/critically successful). But we’re all different. If someone prefers that era, that’s what they prefer.
I'm curious what they mean by some of that too: the NSNA being influential is an odd one. I guess Max Largo would seem to have influenced Max Zorin a fair bit, beyond that I'm not sure.
I think AVTAK could possibly have taken some more pointers even, I wouldn't have minded if it had actually addressed Bond's age and retirement as NSNA did (not that it dwelled on it). But then maybe that would have been two Bonds in a row being a bit too similar.
I have ten more to chew on:
Vehicle gadgets are more exciting than field gadgets
Jack Wade is better than most Felix Leiters
Films should now embrace continuation content more strongly
The films require some degree of camp/silliness
Horror elements are their most effective in MR
Few Bond girls match Kara Milovy and her chemistry with Dalton
Sean Connery will always be the standard
Despite other issues, QoS is the most stylish/dynamic Craig film
Lighter films are not detrimental and grow the franchise more
The low key, detective elements of DN should be used more often
I agree about the vehicle gadgets typically being better than field gadgets. They tend to be more realistic.
Jack Wade feels more Texan than the others. That is one of the best reasons.
I fully agree with EON using more things from the continuation material. They own those rights to other continuation novels. They should use it more often now. Some of it has aged better than Fleming's material that has been used.
I agree about a bit of camp and silliness. Just don't overdo it as much as the Guy Hamilton/Tom Mankiewicz movies. Not so much a cynical approach.
LALD also uses horror elements very well, but MR does have some truly horror moments.
QOS is almost too art-house for me, I blame Marc Forster for that. He still did as well as he could, given the circumstances. I think that this was the first and arguably worst time that EON let DC have too much creative control. Marc Forster wasn't a Bond fan and it shows.
I agree the lighter films help balance of what's a typically dark character.
DN is often overlooked in this respect. It's one of the few movies that proves that Bond is truly a spy, not an action hero.
A few of my own.
While I won't change any Bond film as it is. I do wish I didn't know that Anthony Hopkins was basically cast as Elliot Carver. He honestly would have been perfect casting.
Judi Dench was spoiled by EON as much as Daniel Craig. Her death in SF was more of a tribute to her career, than M's itself. It's hard to be sympathetic with a character like M, when we've seen a lot of her bad choices over the years.
If Ralph Fiennes wins the Oscar, EON is going to fight to keep him around. Expect M to continue a bigger role if that happens. Hopefully, he will be written to be more neutral, with less of the trust issues, and not accidentally creating villains.
I think GE also draws inspiration from it, mainly Xenia from Fatima, and of course the laser watch.
And a new and more bureaucratic M.
They're often more dynamic just because of the nature of them (usually being used in some sort of battle situation, in fast motion of course!), but I don't know if they're always more exciting, and it depends what you're excited by. I enjoy the cleverness of some of the ones he carries, I enjoy the wit of them.
Jack Wade is better than most Felix Leiters
Than a great deal of them, yeah. He's more charismatic, and even in their brief scene together in TND I buy that Bond has become fond of him, if not exactly good mates.
Films should now embrace continuation content more strongly
Nah, no point. There's nothing in them they can't write better themselves, and I don't think there are any killer ideas in them which demand to be filmed.
The films require some degree of camp/silliness
yeah.
Horror elements are their most effective in MR
Maybe, it's possible.
Few Bond girls match Kara Milovy and her chemistry with Dalton
She's right up there.
Sean Connery will always be the standard
I don't know about always; I think new actors will be judging themselves against Craig.
Despite other issues, QoS is the most stylish/dynamic Craig film
Not most stylish, most dynamic maybe. But, y'know, it's short! :)
Lighter films are not detrimental and grow the franchise more
Yeah sure.
The low key, detective elements of DN should be used more often
I'n not desperate about that. I like big thrilling Bond adventures.
Do they own it? I'm not sure, I think they'd have to pay the writers and IFP.
No I don't see that.
Fiennes is already a very valued, veteran screen actor, an Oscar won't suddenly make everyone realise that. I think it's possible they'll keep him on as a new version of M, but I don't think the Oscar would change that.