Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • edited November 2012 Posts: 11,425
    acoppola wrote:
    Like when he makes his heart stop?:) The problem is that the material was insulting. There was nothing in the film that you could really bite into with the Bond character.

    Bond looked very nice but was bland and lifeless. He became an image and those involved should be ashamed of almost destroying 40 years of legacy.
    Bond stopping his heart is a result of the writer's work, not the actors. I think Brosnan gave a good performance inside of a bad movie, meaning I think he did what he could with some relatively weak material.

    Brozza's performance is all over the place in DAD. Yes the material is awful, but so is his acting. Saw the first half the other day and I really don't get why people rave about the PTS or Cuba scenes. He looks like a Florida pensioner on holiday. Great scene when he's letching over Jinx through binoculars...
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Thats exactly what Graham Rye said:

    Caricature is the tribute that mediocrity pays to genius.”–this Oscar Wilde quote just about sums up the current state of affairs for me. Anyone reading my article in OO7 Magazine (#41) will know exactly what I thought about Die Another Day, which I don’t want to labour here—but for me it’s still the worst movie in the series!

    I like Pierce Brosnan as James Bond. He’s got all the right qualities a good Bond should have: he’s tall dark and handsome, he handles the humour well, he’s believable in the action scenes—and the cinema-going public love him! Unfortunately I don’t think the films measure up to his ability as an actor to do something more with the role than he’s been allowed to show to date. In GoldenEye, a colourless drab looking film, he was given little to do except react to the other characters and situations around him. Tomorrow Never Dies was his finest hour as Bond, and I do mean hour. The first half of the movie is the best Brosnan/Bond to date, with some nice Bondian touches, up until the model of his BMW crashes off the hotel roof through a flurry of polystyrene bricks, then the film just simply rambles until it falls apart. I thoroughly enjoyed The World Is Not Enough, which had the best narrative structure of all the Brosnan/Bond films, and the story unfolded much more in the style of a Sixties’ Bond. Although the film is uneven, it’s about 200% better than the dire Die Another Day—quasi science fiction badly executed and acted by everyone but Brosnan.

    Had EON moulded Brosnan more into the kind of man he is in The Fourth Protocol, he could have stayed on for seven films.

    Martin Campbell did not like moody Bond at the time. But Pierce suits moody and truly pissed. In The Fourth Protocol his moments where he is alone are fascinating. Like when he has washed his hair and is drinking whilst he is watching tv.



  • acoppola wrote:
    With LTK it is documented that it was handled poorly by the studio.

    I just gave an example of what John Glen mentions in his book. And him being a 5 time Bond director knew something was not right in terms of promotional effort.

    And of course there are no guarantees with a film's box office. But Bond needs a huge campaign rather than complacency that the fans will see it anyway which was the case with LTK.
    Again, not disagreeing, just thinking there was more to that movie not doing well than just marketing. There are other things going on in with that film that might have had something to do with its lack of success.

  • edited November 2012 Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote:
    acoppola wrote:
    Like when he makes his heart stop?:) The problem is that the material was insulting. There was nothing in the film that you could really bite into with the Bond character.

    Bond looked very nice but was bland and lifeless. He became an image and those involved should be ashamed of almost destroying 40 years of legacy.
    Bond stopping his heart is a result of the writer's work, not the actors. I think Brosnan gave a good performance inside of a bad movie, meaning I think he did what he could with some relatively weak material.

    Brozza's performance is all over the place in DAD. Yes the material is awful, but so is his acting. Saw the first half the other day and I really don't get why people rave about the PTS or Cuba scenes. He looks like a Florida pensioner on holiday. Great scene when he's letching over Jinx through binoculars...

    I think he looks fine. Why is his acting bad in the PTS or the Cuba scenes (ok I admit he went a bit overboard with the Jinx stuff but during his scenes with Raoul I thought he worked well).

    I liked his "I don't care" attitude in the film.
  • Getafix wrote:
    Brozza's performance is all over the place in DAD. Yes the material is awful, but so is his acting. Saw the first half the other day and I really don't get why people rave about the PTS or Cuba scenes. He looks like a Florida pensioner on holiday. Great scene when he's letching over Jinx through binoculars...
    Eh, I just didn't see it that way. I thought he gave a performance that was consistent with his earlier interpretation of the character.

  • 002002
    Posts: 581
    Yeah, but Pierce would have floundered in LTK. What is weird is what Dalton had pierce Lacked, and what Pierce had Dalton lacked. The 2 of them combined would have been perfect- Then Again that was Connery. lol

    Pierce Dalton

    Timothy Brosnan
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2012 Posts: 1,243
    acoppola wrote:
    Like when he makes his heart stop?:) The problem is that the material was insulting. There was nothing in the film that you could really bite into with the Bond character.

    Bond looked very nice but was bland and lifeless. He became an image and those involved should be ashamed of almost destroying 40 years of legacy.
    Bond stopping his heart is a result of the writer's work, not the actors. I think Brosnan gave a good performance inside of a bad movie, meaning I think he did what he could with some relatively weak material.

    Yes, but the film is such a piece of trash. Style over substance. He had few moments where we see his real talents as an actor. But it could not have been a worse exit for him from the series.

    The wit of Bond is tacky. Brosnan is too laid back in most the movie. I do not see any stretching of himself. The scene where he meets Jinx is sh*te and hardly what you call good acting.

    In the Connery days those scenes were powerful. Even his scene in the PTS of DAF where he strangles a woman with a bra though not PC is a tour de force of how Connery could command the situation in seconds.

    Connery is laid back but with an intensity that is out there.



  • Posts: 11,189
    acoppola wrote:
    acoppola wrote:
    Like when he makes his heart stop?:) The problem is that the material was insulting. There was nothing in the film that you could really bite into with the Bond character.

    Bond looked very nice but was bland and lifeless. He became an image and those involved should be ashamed of almost destroying 40 years of legacy.
    Bond stopping his heart is a result of the writer's work, not the actors. I think Brosnan gave a good performance inside of a bad movie, meaning I think he did what he could with some relatively weak material.

    Yes, but the film is such a piece of trash. Style over substance. He had few moments where we see his real talents as an actor. But it could not have been a worse exit for him from the series.

    The wit of Bond is tacky. Brosnan is too laid back in most the movie. I do not see any stretching of himself. The scene where he meets Jinx is sh*te and hardly what you call good acting.

    In the Connery days those scenes were powerful. Even his scene in the PTS of DAF where he strangles a woman with a bra though not PC is a tour de force of how Connery could command the situation in seconds.

    Connery is laid back but with an intensity that is out there.



    I liked his scene with M:

    "Abandoned station...for abandoned agents. Your calling card!"
  • 002002
    Posts: 581
    Getafix wrote:
    acoppola wrote:

    Brozza's performance is all over the place in DAD. Yes the material is awful, but so is his acting. Saw the first half the other day and I really don't get why people rave about the PTS or Cuba scenes. He looks like a Florida pensioner on holiday. Great scene when he's letching over Jinx through binoculars...

    you cant judge any actor based on the material DAD's Material was awful but you cant blame Brosnan he did a very consistant performance- lets look at the scene with M in the medical room is really good stuff especially the line about him going after Zao with that bitter voice filled with hatred just felt like Bond is back..

    the scene with Bond punching the annoying australian "i dont need a wheelchair, No? you do now!" is one of the funniest (intentional) moments in the movie
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    acoppola wrote:
    With LTK it is documented that it was handled poorly by the studio.

    I just gave an example of what John Glen mentions in his book. And him being a 5 time Bond director knew something was not right in terms of promotional effort.

    And of course there are no guarantees with a film's box office. But Bond needs a huge campaign rather than complacency that the fans will see it anyway which was the case with LTK.
    Again, not disagreeing, just thinking there was more to that movie not doing well than just marketing. There are other things going on in with that film that might have had something to do with its lack of success.

    It did brilliantly in Europe. In fact regarding your point that with the things going on in the film here is an interesting observation.

    LTK at the time scored very highly with test audiences in the USA. It got very favourable responses and I can only assume that the studio thought the film would be fine and did rested on their laurels.

    So they liked the film before release.

    With Bond, you need to hammer hard with the advertising. Nothing less will do.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Surely the fact its a JAMES BOND film though would have been marketing in itself.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2012 Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote:
    acoppola wrote:
    acoppola wrote:
    Like when he makes his heart stop?:) The problem is that the material was insulting. There was nothing in the film that you could really bite into with the Bond character.

    Bond looked very nice but was bland and lifeless. He became an image and those involved should be ashamed of almost destroying 40 years of legacy.
    Bond stopping his heart is a result of the writer's work, not the actors. I think Brosnan gave a good performance inside of a bad movie, meaning I think he did what he could with some relatively weak material.

    Yes, but the film is such a piece of trash. Style over substance. He had few moments where we see his real talents as an actor. But it could not have been a worse exit for him from the series.

    The wit of Bond is tacky. Brosnan is too laid back in most the movie. I do not see any stretching of himself. The scene where he meets Jinx is sh*te and hardly what you call good acting.

    In the Connery days those scenes were powerful. Even his scene in the PTS of DAF where he strangles a woman with a bra though not PC is a tour de force of how Connery could command the situation in seconds.

    Connery is laid back but with an intensity that is out there.



    I liked his scene with M:

    "Abandoned station...for abandoned agents. Your calling card!"

    Brosnan's era should have been outstanding and not serviceable. The money spent and support means it is a black mark against the don't dare mess with the formula attitude.
    Old Bond was risky and pushed the boundaries.

    Lazenby too had exceptional scenes.

  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Surely the fact its a JAMES BOND film though would have been marketing in itself.

    If you cut the promotional budget and assume just fans will see it then Box Office will come short. You need to gain new audience with each film.

    Bond in the late 80's was under promoted. The attitude of the studio was exactly what your above statement says. It was complacent.

    In even Connery's day they would put up huge billboards despite the fact he was a huge success. Even in those circumstances, marketing was not underestimated.

  • edited November 2012 Posts: 11,189
    acoppola wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Surely the fact its a JAMES BOND film though would have been marketing in itself.

    If you cut the promotional budget and assume just fans will see it then Box Office will come short. You need to gain new audience with each film.

    Bond in the late 80's was under promoted. The attitude of the studio was exactly what your above statement says. It was complacent.

    In even Connery's day they would put up huge billboards despite the fact he was a huge success. Even in those circumstances, marketing was not underestimated.

    Hmm...good point. I get the feeling TLD was fairly well promoted across the world though and still, according to BO Mojo sadly didn't make it to the top 10 that year in the US (although in fairness it still did pretty well). I recall PB saying - after the deal with Bond fell through - that he saw big billboards of Tim when driving along the road.

    http://boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?yr=1987&p=.htm

    LTK seemed to be the deal breaker. I remember having to scroll down to find it in the 1989 box office figures - at #36. Shame that a Bond movie was that low. Even if marketing was poor 36 is just sad.

    http://boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?yr=1989&p=.htm
  • edited November 2012 Posts: 803


    I feel I should point out I enjoyed License To Kill, but that doesn't mean I don't think there are some parts of the movie where I find my eyes rolling up and don't think what they were attempting worked. The scene with Bond avoiding the LAW rocket in the semi jumpes to mind.

    I know of no amount of advertising that would have changed that reaction.

  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote:
    acoppola wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Surely the fact its a JAMES BOND film though would have been marketing in itself.

    If you cut the promotional budget and assume just fans will see it then Box Office will come short. You need to gain new audience with each film.

    Bond in the late 80's was under promoted. The attitude of the studio was exactly what your above statement says. It was complacent.

    In even Connery's day they would put up huge billboards despite the fact he was a huge success. Even in those circumstances, marketing was not underestimated.

    Hmm...good point. I get the feeling TLD was fairly well promoted across the world though and still, according to BO Mojo sadly didn't make it to the top 10 that year in the US (although in fairness it still did pretty well). I recall PB saying - after the deal with Bond fell through - that he saw big billboards of Tim when driving along the road.

    http://boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?yr=1987&p=.htm

    LTK seemed to be the deal breaker. I remember having to scroll down to find it in the 1989 box office figures - at #36. Shame that a Bond movie was that low. Even if marketing was poor 36 is just sad.

    http://boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?yr=1989&p=.htm

    LTK did great in Europe and in the UK it did very well even with the 15 certificate.

    Releasing LTK at the same time as Batman which at the time was the biggest movie ever was idiotic of the studio and shows how they really did not think through.

    No Bond film after LTK would ever be released in the summer. The industry had changed but the studio thought they were in the Octopussy days.

    I mean when Roger had a Bond film, it would always be released when it had no real competition. It was the main thing at the cinema.

    What competition did FYEO or Octopussy have? Hardly any compared to the late 80's market. Cubby even said in his book that it was harder to compete than before at the time of LTK and then on top of that a weak advertising campaign with money saving attitude.



  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2012 Posts: 1,243

    I feel I should point out I enjoyed License To Kill, but that doesn't mean I don't think there are some parts of the movie where I find my eyes rolling up and don't think what they were attempting worked. The scene with Bond avoiding the LAW rocket in the semi jumpes to mind.

    I know of no amount of advertising that would have changed that reaction.

    Yes but look what a turkey DAD was and people still went to see it in greater numbers. The promotion sold the film. And it was a heavy campaign. I am talking only about getting people to see the film before they see those scenes.

    The advertising got people to see it, and we all know that they were in for a shock.

    Yes, LTK has some bad scenes which were rushed because John Glen was pushed for time and under immense pressure.

    LTK could have made way more money in the USA with a heavy and hard push of advertising.

    But LTK's truck action is not what makes the film a great one for me. It is amazing but the story is the star and so is Bond's vendetta.

  • edited November 2012 Posts: 803
    acoppola wrote:
    Yes but look what a turkey DAD was and people still went to see it in greater numbers. The promotion sold the film. And it was a heavy campaign. I am talking only about getting people to see the film before they see those scenes.

    The advertising got people to see it, and we all know that they were in for a shock.

    Yes, LTK has some bad scenes which were rushed because John Glen was pushed for time and under immense pressure.

    LTK could have made way more money in the USA with a heavy and hard push of advertising.

    But LTK's truck action is not what makes the film a great one for me. It is amazing but the story is the star and so is Bond's vendetta.
    Advertising gets people into the theater; it doesn't get them to go see a movie again, which clearly happened with Die Another Day and didn't happen (at least in the states) with License To Kill.

  • edited November 2012 Posts: 11,189
    I was talking about this with Wizard some time back and he felt the reason for LTK's under-performance (especially in the US) was because:

    1. Dalton is just too serious in this film.
    2. The production values are really poor and it looks like a made for TV film. It might not sound a lot but it just lacks that wow factor.
    3. The score is such a far cry from John Barry and because the plot and characterisation is so far from the norm we really need something familiar to hang onto. Hence how when Q shows up I've heard that loads of audicences cheered.

    Where CR treads a similar serious path it does so with panache. The Astons, the suits the locations its all there and is beautifully shot. It feels like a Bond film. LTKs biggest problem is it lacks all sense of being a Bond film.


    Perhaps there's an element of truth to this.

    I'd apply the last statement to SF too.
  • BAIN123 wrote:
    I was talking about this with Wizard some time back and he felt the reason for LTK's under-performance was because:

    1. Dalton is just too serious in this film.
    2. The production values are really poor and it looks like a made for TV film. It might not sound a lot but it just lacks that wow factor.
    3. The score is such a far cry from John Barry and because the plot and characterisation is so far from the norm we really need something familiar to hang onto. Hence how when Q shows up I've heard that loads of audicences cheered.

    Where CR treads a similar serious path it does so with panache. The Astons, the suits the locations its all there and is beautifully shot. It feels like a Bond film. LTKs biggest problem is it lacks all sense of being a Bond film.


    Perhaps there's an element of truth to this.

    Very much agreed!
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2012 Posts: 1,243
    acoppola wrote:
    Yes but look what a turkey DAD was and people still went to see it in greater numbers. The promotion sold the film. And it was a heavy campaign. I am talking only about getting people to see the film before they see those scenes.

    The advertising got people to see it, and we all know that they were in for a shock.

    Yes, LTK has some bad scenes which were rushed because John Glen was pushed for time and under immense pressure.

    LTK could have made way more money in the USA with a heavy and hard push of advertising.

    But LTK's truck action is not what makes the film a great one for me. It is amazing but the story is the star and so is Bond's vendetta.
    Advertising gets people into the theater; it doesn't get them to go see a movie again, which clearly happened with Die Another Day and didn't happen (at least in the states) with License To Kill.

    LTK's advertising barely got people into theatres which is why it hauled a measly $25 million in the USA.

    It's a no brainer, but the studio messed up. DAD being poor did not matter. Ironically it did more business than the previous three. I went to see it based on an impressive advertising and thinking I was in for a masterpiece. Bond being captured made me think we were in for a serious study of the character and a development for the series.

    DAD is the bottom of the barrel for the series yet got a warmer public reception at the box office. But it came at the expense of the goodwill of Bond fans and a break of trust with the franchise.

    The hype won the day for DAD at the expense of the series survival.

  • acoppola wrote:
    LTK's advertising barely got people into theatres which is why it hauled a measly $25 million in the USA.

    It's a no brainer, but the studio messed up. DAD being poor did not matter. Ironically it did more business than the previous three. I went to see it based on an impressive advertising and thinking I was in for a masterpiece. Bond being captured made me think we were in for a serious study of the character and a development for the series.

    DAD is the bottom of the barrel for the series yet got a warmer public reception at the box office. But it came at the expense of the goodwill of Bond fans and a break of trust with the franchise.

    The hype won the day for DAD at the expense of the series survival.
    Hype doesn't really explain why so many people went to more than one viewing of Die Another Day, though.

  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2012 Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I was talking about this with Wizard some time back and he felt the reason for LTK's under-performance (especially in the US) was because:

    1. Dalton is just too serious in this film.
    2. The production values are really poor and it looks like a made for TV film. It might not sound a lot but it just lacks that wow factor.
    3. The score is such a far cry from John Barry and because the plot and characterisation is so far from the norm we really need something familiar to hang onto. Hence how when Q shows up I've heard that loads of audicences cheered.

    Where CR treads a similar serious path it does so with panache. The Astons, the suits the locations its all there and is beautifully shot. It feels like a Bond film. LTKs biggest problem is it lacks all sense of being a Bond film.


    Perhaps there's an element of truth to this.

    I'd apply the last statement to SF too.

    Yes Dalton is serious but it is contextual to the story. It does not look like a tv movie but at best an Americanised movie.

    Yes, the score is not a John Barry one. And neither is TSWLM which is poor in my opinion and tacky sounding apart from the PTS. Yet the film is highly ranked anyway.

    In fact LTK does look like an 80's Bond film. I never thought for a second it is not Bond.

    The problem is @Bain123 is that we sometimes take a critics word as a fact. Yesterday you said LTK looks like Miami Vice but you also admitted you never saw Miami Vice. That underlines my points of how sometimes we use others opinions to form our argument against.

    So sometimes opinions I hear about LTK are taken from other peoples assessments.

    I pay no attention to critics any more than those who still to this day think Craig is not right for Bond. And they also put in strong arguments why they think so.

    At the end of the day Bond is subjective. If I was to follow popular opinion, then I would not watch TMWTGG. It is seen as a poor entry yet has some wonderful moments to be discovered.

    LTK had a lot of work put in and let's take it for what it wanted to do, which is show a darker side of Bond at a time when people still were so used to the Roger Moore style.

    The film was ahead of it's time.

  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2012 Posts: 1,243
    acoppola wrote:
    LTK's advertising barely got people into theatres which is why it hauled a measly $25 million in the USA.

    It's a no brainer, but the studio messed up. DAD being poor did not matter. Ironically it did more business than the previous three. I went to see it based on an impressive advertising and thinking I was in for a masterpiece. Bond being captured made me think we were in for a serious study of the character and a development for the series.

    DAD is the bottom of the barrel for the series yet got a warmer public reception at the box office. But it came at the expense of the goodwill of Bond fans and a break of trust with the franchise.

    The hype won the day for DAD at the expense of the series survival.
    Hype doesn't really explain why so many people went to more than one viewing of Die Another Day, though.

    At the time of DAD most lapped it up like a kitten and were smitten with the 40th anniversary bug. But the film got the real knife in the back with the release of CR.

    No one I knew said a bad word about DAD. It was liked for it's homages a lot.

    Only then with CR, did many see the difference of how good Bond can be.

    I saw DAD three times at the cinema despite not liking it on first viewing. It still is a toilet of a film. My going three times was not a reflection of it's quality. I thought maybe it is me and not the film. I thought I needed to get used to the style change.



  • edited November 2012 Posts: 11,189
    I'm watching LTK as I type this. It does have a very "TV" style manner to it at times. As I said in one of my earlier posts Murder She Wrote (something I have seen) comes to mind during some of the early scenes in the house. It just has that "look" to it.

    The film has a grubby feel all round. I actually think I prefer OP (a film that seems to be mangled a lot too) overall. True it has its silly moments but its got a sense of espionage and style to it that is lacking in Kill.

    Kill has got some strong points though - namely Robert Davi who is superb.

    DAD is much worse though - I admit that.
  • acoppola wrote:
    At the time of DAD most lapped it up like a kitten and were smitten with the 40th anniversary bug. But the film got the real knife in the back with the release of CR.

    No one I knew said a bad word about DAD. It was liked for it's homages a lot.

    Only then with CR, did many see the difference of how good Bond can be.

    I saw DAD three times at the cinema despite not liking it on first viewing. It still is a toilet of a film. My going three times was not a reflection of it's quality. I thought maybe it is me and not the film. I thought I needed to get used to the style change.
    LOL! You are a better man than I; I saw the film once in the theater, and while I enjoyed it for what it was, I didn't find it to be one of the stronger entries into the Bond franchise even when it first came out. Certainly didn't enjoy it enough to spend more money on it.

  • BAIN123 wrote:
    I'm watching LTK as I type this. It does have a very "TV" style manner to it at times. As I said in one of my earlier posts Murder She Wrote (something I have seen) comes to mind during some of the early scenes in the house. It just has that "look" to it.

    The film has a grubby feel all round. I actually think I prefer OP (a film that seems to be mangled a lot too) overall. True it has its silly moments but its got a sense of espionage and style to it that is lacking in Kill.

    Kill has got some strong points though - namely Robert Davi who is superb.
    And Dalton, who is very good in the role, I thought.

  • edited November 2012 Posts: 11,189
    Dalton's alright. Has some good moments but Davi steals the show.
  • edited November 2012 Posts: 803
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Dalton's alright. Has some good moments but Davi steals the show.
    I'm not trying to take away anything from Davi; he was excellent in the film, too. But I think saying Dalton was just all right is short-changing Dalton quite a bit. His portrayal of Bond was one of the better one's in the series, I thought.

    There were a lot of technical issues I thought hindered License To Kill; Dalton's performance wasn't one of them. I think he's one of the stand-outs of the movie.

  • edited November 2012 Posts: 11,189
    He did well, he has some good scenes but I just don't feel wowed by him.

    I don't know what it is but I just feel a bit...meh about him.

    I still feel he has a very "TV/stage" feel about him.
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