Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • DwayneDwayne New York City
    Posts: 2,848
    Getafix wrote: »
    Nice. A good best supporting actor line up as well. What happened to Kevin Kline? He was a good comic actor.

    He’s married to lovely Phoebe Cates. So, I imagine that he’s quite happy! 😊
  • Posts: 11,425
    Never heard of her
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Getafix wrote: »
    Never heard of her

    Watch Fast Times at Ridgemont High.

    That’s all I’m going to say.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Of all the Bonds those two were the only ones that were friends with each other, before and after Bond. When Connery was in the early part of his career, Moore basically showed him the ropes on show business. Then when Connery vacated the role a second time after DAF he recommended EON look into Moore as his replacement.

    That’s a kind of dedication I’ve never seen between any of the other Bonds, even though they’ve all supported each other through media. Except maybe Lazenby, who never seemed to get along with any of the actors, even having a feud with Brosnan.

    Surprised to hear Connery was having conversations with EON about his replacement
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,438
    I might be off but I think Sean maintained good relationship with Harry. Albert not so much. After reading Dick Van Dyke's autobiography and his re-telling of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang it would appear that Albert was a bit of an a-hole. I think Harry was the balance to Albert, almost a good cop bad cop vibe to them.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Of all the Bonds those two were the only ones that were friends with each other, before and after Bond. When Connery was in the early part of his career, Moore basically showed him the ropes on show business. Then when Connery vacated the role a second time after DAF he recommended EON look into Moore as his replacement.

    That’s a kind of dedication I’ve never seen between any of the other Bonds, even though they’ve all supported each other through media. Except maybe Lazenby, who never seemed to get along with any of the actors, even having a feud with Brosnan.

    Roger Moore once mentioned that he and George would exchange jokes by e-mail.
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 3,327
    Had Dalton been in GE, I am convinced the movie would continue in the same vain as the first 2 films, only perhaps toning down the darker and more violent elements of LTK a tad, due to the criticism it received at that time. It would probably have ended up more like TLD in tone, which would have pleased most fans.

    I'm also certain had Dalton been in GE, there would still have been a few unused Fleming scenes tossed in there for good measure too, due to Dalton's (and probably Cubby's) desire for wanting to keep it in line with the books.

    I think the outcome would be quite a different film to the one we eventually got with Brosnan.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    Had Dalton been in GE, I am convinced the movie would continue in the same vain as the first 2 films, only perhaps toning down the darker and more violent elements of LTK a tad, due to the criticism it received at that time. It would probably have ended up more like TLD in tone, which would have pleased most fans.

    I'm also certain had Dalton been in GE, there would still have been a few unused Fleming scenes tossed in there for good measure too, due to Dalton's (and probably Cubby's) desire for wanting to keep it in line with the books.

    I think the outcome would be quite a different film to the one we eventually got with Brosnan.

    Agree. That being said though I think had we got the film we did with Dalton, I think he would've carried it quite well. Yes, they would've probably tapered back the innuendos, but I feel that the narrative of Goldeneye would've fallen straight into the wheelhouse of Dalton. I would've loved to have seen the relationship between Dalton/Bean which I believe would've been a real highlight.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    GE has always felt like a Dalton film slightly nudged more towards cinematic Bond, which is where a third Dalton film was always going to go given the many drafts for Bond 17. Dalton would have absolutely relished the 006/007 dynamic.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    GE has always felt like a Dalton film slightly nudged more towards cinematic Bond, which is where a third Dalton film was always going to go given the many drafts for Bond 17. Dalton would have absolutely relished the 006/007 dynamic.

    Wholeheartedly agree.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Octopussy wrote: »
    Had Dalton been in GE, I am convinced the movie would continue in the same vain as the first 2 films, only perhaps toning down the darker and more violent elements of LTK a tad, due to the criticism it received at that time. It would probably have ended up more like TLD in tone, which would have pleased most fans.

    I'm also certain had Dalton been in GE, there would still have been a few unused Fleming scenes tossed in there for good measure too, due to Dalton's (and probably Cubby's) desire for wanting to keep it in line with the books.

    I think the outcome would be quite a different film to the one we eventually got with Brosnan.

    Agree. That being said though I think had we got the film we did with Dalton, I think he would've carried it quite well. Yes, they would've probably tapered back the innuendos, but I feel that the narrative of Goldeneye would've fallen straight into the wheelhouse of Dalton. I would've loved to have seen the relationship between Dalton/Bean which I believe would've been a real highlight.

    Dalton and Hopkins was mooted at one point wasn't it? That would have been amazing.
  • Posts: 15,127
    Dalton/Hopkins yes, Dalton/Bean would not have worked imo.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I don’t see why Dalton/Bean wouldn’t have worked.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited April 2020 Posts: 4,247
    Dalton's GE would have been a return to TLD's style, maybe Barry might have scored it too....and Dalton's Bond triumphs even better, when the plot involves Russians. And the Black Military outfit Brosnan wears in GE's PTS, easily reminds me of Dalton's outfit in TLD's PTS.
  • Posts: 15,127
    I don’t see why Dalton/Bean wouldn’t have worked.

    Dalton looked too seasoned. Bean was at the time a very young Bond villain, against Dalton he would have appeared rather youthful and would lack a certain menace. Against a younger looking Brosnan (even though Brosnan was already in his forties at the time), he is more menacing in comparison.

    Now Dalton against Hopkins would have been interesting, especially if Trevelyan had remained Bond's former mentor, as I understand he was meant to be in earlier drafts. Something that Bean could not have been with Dalton.

    (That said whatever I said regarding Dalton being more menacing than Brosnan, as a fighter I always found Dalton-Bond to be extremely frustrating.)
  • Posts: 11,425
    Yes I agree Dalton was not super convincing in a fight. It's a shame as he's physically imposing and I am sure could have pulled it off with the right training.

    I might be imagining this but wasn't his dad in the SAS/SOE during WW2 as well? His dad was basically a Bond type character.
  • Posts: 15,127
    Getafix wrote: »
    Yes I agree Dalton was not super convincing in a fight. It's a shame as he's physically imposing and I am sure could have pulled it off with the right training.

    I might be imagining this but wasn't his dad in the SAS/SOE during WW2 as well? His dad was basically a Bond type character.

    I think it was an approach they took for the character at that point. Dalton was very convincing as a fighter in The Rocketeer. It was also a terrible decision detrimental to Dalton's tenure. Especially in the 80s, a time literally filled with action heroes of all sorts, all of them capable fighters. Even Daniel Larusso could hold his ground! Heck the elderly Mr Miyagi could fight a dozen men without breaking a swept.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    I think if Campbell was going to direct GE with Dalton, it means Dalton's Fisticuffs would have been different. Coz like Peter Hunt, Martin Campbell likes Creating tense Fisticuffs....GE might have shown us a different Dalton, because of the Hiatus & all. At the end of the Day....like Lazenby, it seems Dalton was his own enemy. There are lots of casual Bond fans who don't know Lazenby & Dalton.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I seem to remember Campbell was quite dismissive of Dalton. I doubt he'd have accepted the job with Dalton still in the role.
  • Posts: 628
    Dalton always came off as a guy people wouldn't want to mess with, particularly in his second movie. Maybe he's not as convincing in fisticuffs, but he'll never look as ridiculous as Craig's floating head on the stuntmen in SKYFALL and SPECTRE.

    It's not like in the character in the novels was a highly skilled bruiser anyway.
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 11,425
    Yes I almost prefer the older films where you can tell it's a stuntman but they try and conceal it as best they can. Craig's CGI face in SF and SP is really not very convincing either.
  • Although I don't think Campbell would have directed Goldeneye if Dalton had returned, let's not forget that one of the favorites to helm Bond 17 around 1990 was Ted Kotcheff (First Blood, Uncommon Valor). We can therefore safely assume that from the beginning of the 1990s, there was talk of having a more physical Bond and it could have been beneficial to Dalton's image.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    At one Point, John Woo was also offered GE.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Although I don't think Campbell would have directed Goldeneye if Dalton had returned, let's not forget that one of the favorites to helm Bond 17 around 1990 was Ted Kotcheff (First Blood, Uncommon Valor). We can therefore safely assume that from the beginning of the 1990s, there was talk of having a more physical Bond and it could have been beneficial to Dalton's image.

    Interesting. Although John Glen was a terrific action director. I think the area where Bond had often (not always) underperformed was in the hand to hand fight sequences. Although TLD has that rather good fight with Necros in the kitchen of the safe house. Just a shame it doesn't involve Bond.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    Getafix wrote: »
    Although I don't think Campbell would have directed Goldeneye if Dalton had returned, let's not forget that one of the favorites to helm Bond 17 around 1990 was Ted Kotcheff (First Blood, Uncommon Valor). We can therefore safely assume that from the beginning of the 1990s, there was talk of having a more physical Bond and it could have been beneficial to Dalton's image.

    Interesting. Although John Glen was a terrific action director. I think the area where Bond had often (not always) underperformed was in the hand to hand fight sequences. Although TLD has that rather good fight with Necros in the kitchen of the safe house. Just a shame it doesn't involve Bond.

    Yeah, the kitchen fight is thrilling, What about the Cargo Plane fight?....Bond & Necros were reeling, but I thought that was thrilling & suspenseful too.
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 910
    Getafix wrote: »
    Although TLD has that rather good fight with Necros in the kitchen of the safe house. Just a shame it doesn't involve Bond.
    While I understand what Glen wanted to do, the absence of a build up to Bond and Necros's confrontation is indeed more than a shame. By not making them fight each other for the first time during this sequence, Glen clearly missed something.

    I also understand the loyalty that united Broccoli to him, although it appears to have deteriorated in the late 1980s and Glen was never expected to return for a third Dalton film, but I would have preferred to see a new director for the new Bond that was Dalton, even if both The Living Daylights and Licence to Kill stand among my favorites. Ted Kotcheff would certainly have been an interesting choice for Bond 17, although not necessarily obvious at first.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Speaking of head CGI replacements, I can’t say I’ve ever been bothered by them because I never actually noticed them, aside from one shot in SF with Patrice looking back at Bond on the rooftops.

    Certainly preferable to how the stuntmen in AVTAK didn’t even look like Moore. It’s like they didn’t even try.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Getafix wrote: »
    Although TLD has that rather good fight with Necros in the kitchen of the safe house. Just a shame it doesn't involve Bond.
    While I understand what Glen wanted to do, the absence of a build up to Bond and Necros's confrontation is indeed more than a shame. By not making them fight each other for the first time during this sequence, Glen clearly missed something.

    I also understand the loyalty that united Broccoli to him, although it appears to have deteriorated in the late 1980s and Glen was never expected to return for a third Dalton film, but I would have preferred to see a new director for the new Bond that was Dalton, even if both The Living Daylights and Licence to Kill stand among my favorites. Ted Kotcheff would certainly have been an interesting choice for Bond 17, although not necessarily obvious at first.

    Not only a new director was needed for Dalton but it needed a younger DP. Alec Mills’ photography/lighting looks like it belongs in the 1960s. Its something that partly made Dalton’s films look antiquated compared to contemporary films.

    Imagine if Jan de Bont had been the DP for LTK, it would have been GORGEOUS looking rather than cheap.
  • Imagine if Jan de Bont had been the DP for LTK, it would have been GORGEOUS looking rather than cheap.
    Gosh, now I can't imagine what could have been... It would have been magnificent; de Bont is all the more an excellent proposition since he was the DP for Ridley Scott's Black Rain. Knowing that Bond 17 was set in the Far East, him in charge of the photography with Kotcheff or John McTiernan directing could have offered something incredible.
  • Posts: 15,127
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    Dalton always came off as a guy people wouldn't want to mess with, particularly in his second movie. Maybe he's not as convincing in fisticuffs, but he'll never look as ridiculous as Craig's floating head on the stuntmen in SKYFALL and SPECTRE.

    It's not like in the character in the novels was a highly skilled bruiser anyway.

    Dalton didn't exactly live up to his menace when he was going mano a mano against someone. He never seemed to truly have the upper hand. Wasn't Bond in the novel a boxing champion at uni or something of the sort? In any case an operative should be a capable fighter.
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