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Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited January 2015 Posts: 17,795
    The thing about fight scenes is that unless the two combatants are nearly PRECISELY matched in skill and/or strength, any scene lasting over 30 seconds doesn't make sense, unless it's part of a running chase/battle (Jackie Chan's favourite), or it's a basic gratuitous fight movie.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    The thing about fight scenes is that unless the two combatants are nearly PRECISELY matched in skill and/or strength, any scene lasting over 30 seconds doesn't make sense, unless it's part of a running chase/battle (Jackie Chan's favourite), or it's a basic gratuitous fight movie.

    That could be why I find the Bond/Greene battle at the end of QoS disappointing. I thought Bond could have finished it with one punch at any time, even with Greene having the axe.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    bondjames wrote: »
    That could be why I find the Bond/Greene battle at the end of QoS disappointing. I thought Bond could have finished it with one punch at any time, even with Greene having the axe.
    Green was an adrenaline-fueled maniac... I sort of bought the battle.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    That could be why I find the Bond/Greene battle at the end of QoS disappointing. I thought Bond could have finished it with one punch at any time, even with Greene having the axe.
    Green was an adrenaline-fueled maniac... I sort of bought the battle.

    True enough. There was a bit of the crazy in him during that encounter.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,117
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    That could be why I find the Bond/Greene battle at the end of QoS disappointing. I thought Bond could have finished it with one punch at any time, even with Greene having the axe.
    Green was an adrenaline-fueled maniac... I sort of bought the battle.

    So did I. Greene was the kind of otherwise worthless adversary you need to be wary of because of circumstances (in this instance, his weapon and his state of mind). It is like a skinny junky threaening you with a needle: he may be a skinny junky, you sure don't want to risk being prickled!
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    Green for me was a scared man, scared because he knew who was hunting him and how much damage had been done already by that person. He knew he stood little chance of besting 007 in a direct confrontation, but he was due to circumstances forced in that situation and fought like crazy to stay alive.
    For me one of the better and realistic scenes from QoB, as the villain was by no means in the same league as the trained MI6 officer.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    edited February 2015 Posts: 15,117
    Like I said, take Greene as a skinny, sickly looking junky menacing you with a needle. Sure, you can probably beat him. But will you take the chance?
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    chrisisall wrote: »
    The thing about fight scenes is that unless the two combatants are nearly PRECISELY matched in skill and/or strength, any scene lasting over 30 seconds doesn't make sense, unless it's part of a running chase/battle (Jackie Chan's favourite), or it's a basic gratuitous fight movie.

    Yes, I saw that in Goldfinger... ;)
  • PG1985PG1985
    Posts: 5
    Hopefully this may put to rest the question of whether Dalton was forced out of the role or not-- This is from a recent interview w/Dalton as he talks about Penny Dreadful, but also goes into detail on what occurred when his 3rd planned 007 film got derailed, and what came next in the process of staying or leaving the role.. -- I highly doubt Cubby would have asked him to commit to 4 or 5 more if Cubby didn't think he could get the blessing from the studio at the time... Ironic people thought he was fired from doing GE but unless Dalton is lying here (why would he at this point), he not only wasn't canned but asked to do almost a half a dozen more of them! Also intriguing the original script he had for the 3rd film in 1991 he thought was damn good... Anyway, here's the proof: http://theweek.com/articles/447045/timothy-dalton-opens-about-penny-dreadful-leaving-james-bond-demon-all
  • ThomasCrown76ThomasCrown76 Augusta, ks
    Posts: 757
    I always thought the head of united artists didn't want dalton back, cubby did, they were at an impasse, and dalton stepped aside so things could go forward finally with someone else.
  • PG1985PG1985
    Posts: 5
    Well, like I said, unless Dalton was lying in that recent interview (and he never came off as a big ego anyway), I think what he said was probably the real reality... And Cubby still probably had control of his baby... at that juncture... to be able to decide who was his 007 going forward... Just interesting to finally hear what Dalton's thoughts and take was on that crossroads in 007 history back then.
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    PG1985 wrote: »
    Well, like I said, unless Dalton was lying in that recent interview (and he never came off as a big ego anyway), I think what he said was probably the real reality... And Cubby still probably had control of his baby... at that juncture... to be able to decide who was his 007 going forward... Just interesting to finally hear what Dalton's thoughts and take was on that crossroads in 007 history back then.

    I am sorry I do not believe that Cubby offered 4 or 5 more when the studios wanted Dalton out, with LTK showing a severe lack in interest in Daltons 007 there is simply no way he would have gotten such a generous offer with the backing of the studio. Cubby might be generous but even he was not an economical fool.

    I believe that Dalton does fib a wee bit.

  • PG1985PG1985
    Posts: 5
    Hmm, does Dalton have some long history of fibbing though? I am thinking studio probably told Cubby you can have him back for 1 film, and option for more if and only if GE had been a huge hit with Dalton returning to the role... So maybe that was the grey area.
  • ThomasCrown76ThomasCrown76 Augusta, ks
    Posts: 757
    I dunno, I've always wished dalton had gotten his third. Moores first film did ok, his second one less so. Dalton was the same way. Just didn't get that third movie
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    SaintMark wrote: »
    I am sorry I do not believe that Cubby offered 4 or 5 more when the studios wanted Dalton out, with LTK showing a severe lack in interest in Daltons 007
    They'd been there & done that. LALD did well, TMWTGG less so. And Moore went on to be a cash cow. Cubby clearly thought history could repeat itself.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Just speaking from my personal perspective, I didn't take to Dalton in the 80's only because:

    1) I was a lot younger and Moore's 'fun' Bond was more my style then,
    2) I was always comparing him to Moore and was not yet used to his interpretation of the role comparatively speaking (I can understand now why many never took to Moore, because his interpretation was similarly so different from Connery's).

    These days I think Dalton was excellent, because I'm older and can appreciate what he brought to the role more readily.

    Looking back on it, I personally think that if Dalton got his 3rd film in 1991/1992 and if it had been a more lavish, extravagant Bond film rather than a scaled back LTK affair, I'm sure I would have been able to fully accept him in the role at that time.

    Sufficient time would have passed between 1985 (Moore's last) and 1991/1992, and especially if it had been a TSWLM/GF/SF type affair, I'm sure Dalton would have finally been accepted, and would have secured the role for many movies. Cubby probably knew that, as he was an experienced hand.

    Pity. Timing is everything.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    bondjames wrote: »
    Timing is everything.
    Any martial artist would agree.

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    and a clock maker. :D
  • PG1985PG1985
    Posts: 5
    On a slightly different note.. Does anyone think Bond producers missed an epic opportunity to cast Dalton in Skyfall in the role Albert Finney had? It would have made for a heck of a tie-in to two 007 actors who have portrayed the role in a far grittier style than the rest of the group.. If you have seen Penny Dreadful, Dalton definitely could have pulled off being an extra gunman inside the Scotland Mansion.. No doubt.
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    I only wanted all previous 007 actors sitting around a table enjoying a drink while Craig passes them and even gave them a puzzled look while continuing his walk.

    No words just a visual.
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    I am still of the believe that Dalton just did not have the stuff that is needed for a leading role and that the one thing that Kevin McG did well was giving the franchise a breather and find their footing and then continuing with a much more popular and accepted actor that was welcomed in the role.

    Dalton has been overshadowed by two big Bond performers, he shall always be enjoyed by a small group of fans that should not overestimate Daltons importance. Like Lazenby he will remain a rarity in the franchise.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    The final conclution seems accurate. The sentence "Dalton did just not have the stuff that is needed for a leading role" I resent wholeheartedly though! It is quite an hilarious statement not least due to the fact that Dalton had a big career playing lead roles in the theater and big roles in a few films.
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    jobo wrote: »
    The final conclution seems accurate. The sentence "Dalton did just not have the stuff that is needed for a leading role" I resent wholeheartedly though! It is quite an hilarious statement not least due to the fact that Dalton had a big career playing lead roles in the theater and big roles in a few films.

    I never said that Dalton was not an accomplished actor, but he is just not a box office magnet in any sense. Dalton has had a reasonable career but nothing grand.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,117
    SaintMark wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    The final conclution seems accurate. The sentence "Dalton did just not have the stuff that is needed for a leading role" I resent wholeheartedly though! It is quite an hilarious statement not least due to the fact that Dalton had a big career playing lead roles in the theater and big roles in a few films.

    I never said that Dalton was not an accomplished actor, but he is just not a box office magnet in any sense. Dalton has had a reasonable career but nothing grand.

    True. And far more comfortable in either small production or secondary roles than in mainstream movies where he had the center of the stage. I never thought he took the pressure of having the role of Bond very well. He was so charismatic in The Rocketeer, actually he was the best thing about that movie, but he never had the same seamless energy as Bond.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    He's had the odd sid role in big films and big roles in TV productions. As a lead I get the feeling he works better on television.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Ludovico wrote: »
    He was so charismatic in The Rocketeer, actually he was the best thing about that movie, but he never had the same seamless energy as Bond.
    Because he chose to do Bond in the particular way that he did. Rocketeer was right after LTK, don't you think he could have done Bond more like Neville Sinclair if he'd wanted to?
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,117
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    He was so charismatic in The Rocketeer, actually he was the best thing about that movie, but he never had the same seamless energy as Bond.
    Because he chose to do Bond in the particular way that he did. Rocketeer was right after LTK, don't you think he could have done Bond more like Neville Sinclair if he'd wanted to?

    He could have had. But I do think he was more uncomfortable with Bond, maybe because he was perceived (unjustly) as an usurper.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I do think he was more uncomfortable with Bond
    No, I *think* he perceived and consequently played Bond as a character uncomfortable with well-adjusted people. He seemed more at ease with the likes of Sanchez, a fellow edge-surfer...
  • PG1985PG1985
    Posts: 5
    The point about Neville Sinclair is something I'd been thinking for years now.... I think if he'd gotten his 3rd Bond flick he absolutely would have come back to the role with a few extra winks, nods, and smiles like he exuded in The Rocketeer.... He needed a 3rd shot to win the purists over.... And for the record, Brosnan was not a good Bond (IMO)-- just a pretty boy that all I can think of when I see him in a suit is Stuard Dunmeyer from Mrs. Doubtfire.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    PG1985 wrote: »
    And for the record, Brosnan was not a good Bond (IMO)

    That record's warped, dude. [-(
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