Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    AceHole wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    AceHole wrote: »
    LTK's strengths rests solidly on it's leading men's performances, and it's stunts (the Wavecrest action sequence is one of "80's Bond's" best), and for that alone it trumps GE for me.
    That's true. Dalton is definitely the highlight, along with Davi. It's great to watch these two go at it. The Brosnan/Bean rivalry in GE did not have the same resonance for me.

    The Wavecrest action sequence, including Kamen's score, is absolutely wonderful. Real Bondian genius, especially when Bond water ski's parallel up to the plane and lands on the side. I wish we had something like that in SP.

    EXACTLY. That is what I miss in Bondfilms these days - the 'cool' factor of the action sequences.
    This does not mean 'bigger' or 'louder explosions', I mean that sort of indefinable smart solution to a precarious situation which is THE HALLMARK of James Bond action, to me... see also TLD's parachute+Jeep escape.

    It's that sort of stuff that Craig needs imo.
    He had it, in the CR crane sequence (lots of inventive thinking to keep up with Molaka), and even in Miami (putting the bomb on Carlos's trousers). Not so much since.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,731
    bondjames wrote: »
    AceHole wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    AceHole wrote: »
    LTK's strengths rests solidly on it's leading men's performances, and it's stunts (the Wavecrest action sequence is one of "80's Bond's" best), and for that alone it trumps GE for me.
    That's true. Dalton is definitely the highlight, along with Davi. It's great to watch these two go at it. The Brosnan/Bean rivalry in GE did not have the same resonance for me.

    The Wavecrest action sequence, including Kamen's score, is absolutely wonderful. Real Bondian genius, especially when Bond water ski's parallel up to the plane and lands on the side. I wish we had something like that in SP.

    EXACTLY. That is what I miss in Bondfilms these days - the 'cool' factor of the action sequences.
    This does not mean 'bigger' or 'louder explosions', I mean that sort of indefinable smart solution to a precarious situation which is THE HALLMARK of James Bond action, to me... see also TLD's parachute+Jeep escape.

    It's that sort of stuff that Craig needs imo.
    He had it, in the CR crane sequence (lots of inventive thinking to keep up with Molaka), and even in Miami (putting the bomb on the other chap's trousers). Not so much since.

    Yes but that is about all P&W have come up with since they got the gig... lousy return on investment.
  • Posts: 11,425
    AceHole wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    AceHole wrote: »
    LTK's strengths rests solidly on it's leading men's performances, and it's stunts (the Wavecrest action sequence is one of "80's Bond's" best), and for that alone it trumps GE for me.
    That's true. Dalton is definitely the highlight, along with Davi. It's great to watch these two go at it. The Brosnan/Bean rivalry in GE did not have the same resonance for me.

    The Wavecrest action sequence, including Kamen's score, is absolutely wonderful. Real Bondian genius, especially when Bond water ski's parallel up to the plane and lands on the side. I wish we had something like that in SP.

    EXACTLY. That is what I miss in Bondfilms these days - the 'cool' factor of the action sequences.
    This does not mean 'bigger' or 'louder explosions', I mean that sort of indefinable smart solution to a precarious situation which is THE HALLMARK of James Bond action, to me... see also TLD's parachute+Jeep escape.

    It's that sort of stuff that Craig needs imo. And MGW wrote that sort of thing. Ergo...

    1000% Agree. A nice definition of what has been missing from the films for such a long time now. Those scenes that show Bond's quick witted intelligence and ability to turn adversity into highly entertaining opportunity. The waterskiing sequence in LTK is one of the last great Bond action sequences IMO and classic John Glen style action.

    I miss that audacity.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    AceHole wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    AceHole wrote: »
    LTK's strengths rests solidly on it's leading men's performances, and it's stunts (the Wavecrest action sequence is one of "80's Bond's" best), and for that alone it trumps GE for me.
    That's true. Dalton is definitely the highlight, along with Davi. It's great to watch these two go at it. The Brosnan/Bean rivalry in GE did not have the same resonance for me.

    The Wavecrest action sequence, including Kamen's score, is absolutely wonderful. Real Bondian genius, especially when Bond water ski's parallel up to the plane and lands on the side. I wish we had something like that in SP.

    EXACTLY. That is what I miss in Bondfilms these days - the 'cool' factor of the action sequences.
    This does not mean 'bigger' or 'louder explosions', I mean that sort of indefinable smart solution to a precarious situation which is THE HALLMARK of James Bond action, to me... see also TLD's parachute+Jeep escape.

    It's that sort of stuff that Craig needs imo. And MGW wrote that sort of thing. Ergo...

    1000% Agree. A nice definition of what has been missing from the films for such a long time now. Those scenes that show Bond's quick witted intelligence and ability to turn adversity into highly entertaining opportunity. The waterskiing sequence in LTK is one of the last great Bond action sequences IMO and classic John Glen style action.

    I miss that audacity.
    I guarantee we'll get it back. Bourne will ensure this next year. Bourne is the one who brought that back in the 00's (whereas Bond had lost it at that point) and EON reacted. They will do so again.

    I'm referring to the quick witted intelligence.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I am an unashamed fan of the first three Bourne films, but the action is so different to what I expect and want from Bond. Yes Bourne is intelligent and the action is usually brilliantly done, but it lacks that wit and ever so slightly OTT aspect I expect from Bond.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    I am an unashamed fan of the first three Bourne films, but the action is so different to what I expect and want from Bond. Yes Bourne is intelligent and the action is usually brilliantly done, but it lacks that wit and ever so slightly OTT aspect I expect from Bond.
    I agree. Definitely. That's why I cited CR (and not QoS), and particularly the Molaka and Carlos sequences. They were obviously Bourne inspired (the level of brutality and visceral combat) but also had the Bondian flair inserted (wide angle filming and humour). Bourne inspires Bond to be better, but Bond must retain its own unique characteristics, best illustrated in CR imho.
  • Posts: 11,425
    True. Good points.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,731
    For me Dalton had some of the best written / executed action sequences of the entire franchise. And much of that is down to MGW and John Glen.

    Can any two films boast the nr of superb sequences that TLD and LTK have?! Dismissing Dalton's entries (which many casual fans do...) means missing out on some of the best staged action in the series.

    And to get back to the original point - Dalton also brought believeability to his physical scenes, something that Brosnan did not (painface followed by smirk, etc etc...), so another area where he would have improved GE
  • Posts: 11,425
    Very true.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2015 Posts: 15,716
    The 'towing a plane with another plane' sequence in PTS of LTK, coupled with a kick ass Bond theme, still excites me more than Nolan's homage/version of it in 'Dark Knight Rises', made almost a quarter of a century later.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,731
    The 'towing a plane with another plane' sequence in PTS of LTK, coupled with a kick ass Bond theme, still excites me more than Nolan's homage/version of it in 'Dark Knight Rises', made almost a quarter of a century later.

    That's because Nolan has a s(l)ickness: he needs all his action to be hyper slick. Which removes all degree of verisimilitude, as Richard Donner put it so well.

    John Glen allowed his stunts to remain unpolished, retaining a degree of realism - which is why the best Bond action is to be found in the films that he either directed or where he was 2nd unit boss.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,189
    LTK has always been something of a funny one with me.

    For several years it was one of my favourite Bond films and even managed to be in my top 5 for a good while.

    It was only when I did a double feature a few years ago of OHMSS and LTK did I first notice that LTK seemed very generic in comparison to Peter Hunt's classic (which as you also know also featured Glen as an editor). It made me question the film's cult reputation amongst fans.

    Thinking about it now, I feel that the last 30 minutes or so (after Dalton wakes up in Sanchez's bed) is easily the best part of the film in terms of suspense.
  • Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    LTK has always been something of a funny one with me.

    For several years it was one of my favourite Bond films and even managed to be in my top 5 for a good while.

    It was only when I did a double feature a few years ago of OHMSS and LTK did I first notice that LTK seemed very generic in comparison to Peter Hunt's classic (which as you also know also featured Glen as an editor). It made me question the film's cult reputation amongst fans.

    Thinking about it now, I feel that the last 30 minutes or so (after Dalton wakes up in Sanchez's bed) is easily the best part of the film in terms of suspense.

    Well, you're comparing it to one of the very best there, so your setting the bar pretty high to start with, which is fine.

    For me personally, even though I'm a Dalton fan, LTK has always been a mid table entry for me. I enjoy it now a lot more Than I used to as well.

    Any way, a Bond film where the last half hour is the strongest?! That's pretty high praise IMO. Most Bond films flag towards the end.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,189
    It's currently a mid table entry for me too.

    It certainly is amongst the very few Bond films that has a better second half (I think I can probably count the number of films on my hand). It's not without several strong aspects and Sanchez is certainly one of the best acted villains in the series.

    I just think that sections of it feel quite generic 80s (certainly the opening half hour and parts in the middle),

    I've also said that I've grown to not hold Della in particularly high regard. Shame as she's the main catalyst for the film.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I have to say, I hated (and I mean hated) LTK when it came out. Now it is one of the few Bond films (QoS being the other) that really grows on me every time I watch it.

    The intelligence of the script, including Bond playing on Sanchez's insecurities, is just brilliant. If they'd only had a more impressive female lead, and dropped some of the Q nonsense, I'd have liked it even more. Still, I think it's a superb Bond film (top 10 for me) despite the poor production values and lousy secondary actors.

    I didn't like the truck finale either back when, but given what we've got recently, even that is superb to me now, with vintage Glen non-CGI aerial work.
  • Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    It's currently a mid table entry for me too.

    It certainly is amongst the very few Bond films that has a better second half (I think I can probably count the number of films on my hand). It's not without several strong aspects and Sanchez is certainly one of the best acted villains in the series.

    I just think that sections of it feel quite generic 80s (certainly the opening half hour and parts in the middle),

    I've also said that I've grown to not hold Della in particularly high regard. Shame as she's the main catalyst for the film.

    There are generic 80s elements. But there's a lot that's good as well. We seem to agree that it's a decent mid-table Bond?
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    It's currently a mid table entry for me too.

    It certainly is amongst the very few Bond films that has a better second half (I think I can probably count the number of films on my hand). It's not without several strong aspects and Sanchez is certainly one of the best acted villains in the series.

    I just think that sections of it feel quite generic 80s (certainly the opening half hour and parts in the middle),

    I've also said that I've grown to not hold Della in particularly high regard. Shame as she's the main catalyst for the film.

    There are generic 80s elements. But there's a lot that's good as well. We seem to agree that it's a decent mid-table Bond?

    I think we probably do.

    @bondjames. I must admit i'm not too keen on the Desmond Llewelyn stuff either. I appreciate that he was needed to lighten the intense mood, but when I last saw the film his appearance felt contrived. He shows up just after Bond realises he needs "a cannon" to get to Sanchez. How convenient!!

  • Posts: 11,425
    Like when Little Nelly turns up in YOLT?

    It doesn't bother me.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    @BAIN123, don't you find the LTK script more than 'middle tier'.

    Every time I watch the film I wonder why they can't come up with something as good again.

    It's original (probably that was the problem at the time since it was too original) and it's intelligent. No having to explain away to much contriving, as we've had to do lately. Superb work imho.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote: »
    Like when Little Nelly turns up in YOLT?

    It doesn't bother me.

    I suppose :p
  • Posts: 11,189
    bondjames wrote: »
    @BAIN123, don't you find the LTK script more than 'middle tier'.

    Every time I watch the film I wonder why they can't come up with something as good again.

    It's original (probably that was the problem at the time since it was too original) and it's intelligent. No having to explain away to much contriving, as we've had to do lately. Superb work imho.

    The last act particularly with Bond "befriending" Sanchez is very good...as is Sanchez being taken in by Bond and killing Krest, but I think a lot of the stuff before that explains why I rank it mid-tier.
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    @BAIN123, don't you find the LTK script more than 'middle tier'.

    Every time I watch the film I wonder why they can't come up with something as good again.

    It's original (probably that was the problem at the time since it was too original) and it's intelligent. No having to explain away to much contriving, as we've had to do lately. Superb work imho.

    I see solid middle tier as being quite a strong commendation.

    There is a lot about it that I like but perhaps not one of those that gives me the most enjoyment.

    One thing that does bug me is the going rogue scenario. For me that was the beginning of a slippery slope.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2015 Posts: 15,716
    LTK features the smartest Bond in the entire franchise, and it is a treat to watch Dalton demolishing the entire enemy force by sheer intelligence and resourcefulness.
  • Posts: 7,420
    That's the difference with LTK compared to other Bonds. it gets more exciting as it nears the end. Sadly a trait that even Craigs films don't quite do. it is far better than GE, which I now find very over-rated! It would have benefitted greatly with Dalton in the lead! Its interesting though, I think both films have poor scores. Michael Kamen, who is associated with the Lethal Weapon movies, was a bad choice, and brilliant and all that the final truck chase is, it badly needed a good score behind it. As for GE, well it was unforgivable to let Serra sing on the end credits. makes WOTW sound like a masterpiece!
  • Posts: 11,189
    My v
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    . it is far better than GE, which I now find very over-rated!!

    What did you think of it before out of curiosity?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    As for GE, well it was unforgivable to let Serra sing on the end credits. makes WOTW sound like a masterpiece!
    A slight overstatement in my view. I'll still turn the volume down for both when I have the opportunity to do a Bondathon after SP's blu ray release.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Even as a fan of GE, WOWT massacres TEOL by a mile. That at least has a relatively Bond-ian vibe.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Even as a fan of GE, WOWT massacres TEOL by a mile. That at least has a relatively Bond-ian vibe.
    It's all relative, and TEOL is indeed a PoS with an 80's vibe, while WOTW is saved by some decent orchestration, but I'm glad that I can speed forward (or preferably mute) the next time I watch the film, in the comfort of my home.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    TEOL is an unforgivable piece of shit, agreed. :))
  • Posts: 7,420
    With GE, I went along with every Bond fan who was waiting forever it seems for 007 to return to the big screen. Enjoyed my first viewing with a very partisan crowd. Didn't like Brosnan, and found Sean Beans accent really irritating, but enjoyed it all the same, the action, Izabella Scorupco gorgeous, Kleinmans stunning titles. Viewed now, it has aged badly, the dialogue is terrible in places (that "for England James" line makes me cringe),
    and it just seems flat all the way through. Even the much admired tank chase doesn't thrill, and pales in comparison to the tanker finale of LTK. Its not the worst of Brossas films of course (DAD will forever be, in mind, the worst Bond movie EVER!), but it still lingers at the bottom of my list with all his others!
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