Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

14647495152104

Comments

  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    How did Martin Campbell denegrate Roger Moore?
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    With GE, I went along with every Bond fan who was waiting forever it seems for 007 to return to the big screen. Enjoyed my first viewing with a very partisan crowd. Didn't like Brosnan, and found Sean Beans accent really irritating, but enjoyed it all the same, the action, Izabella Scorupco gorgeous, Kleinmans stunning titles. Viewed now, it has aged badly, the dialogue is terrible in places (that "for England James" line makes me cringe),
    and it just seems flat all the way through. Even the much admired tank chase doesn't thrill, and pales in comparison to the tanker finale of LTK. Its not the worst of Brossas films of course (DAD will forever be, in mind, the worst Bond movie EVER!), but it still lingers at the bottom of my list with all his others!

    Agree with all your observations. I felt all of this from my very first viewing. Couldn't stand Brosnan. Bean's accent was laughable. The plot and dialogue were mainly dire. Dreadful acting and action throughout. And they managed to bring back the single worst element of the Dalton era - Joe Don Baker. Bizarre. I literally cannot understand how it gets to highly ranked around here.

    I don't have any qualms in saying that GE is amongst the worst Bond films ever made. Flat, dull, tedious. And Brosnan's others are all close by in my rankings.

    I'm always torn between TWINE and DAD for worst Bond. DAD is so obviously dreadful that I think it overshadows TWINE sometimes. People forget just how boring and awful TWINE is. I might start a campaign to get TWINE the recognition that it deserves.
  • Posts: 1,631
    I think the biggest problem with TWINE and DAD, and what makes them such disappointments, is that both films had so much potential and managed to squander every last bit of it.

    The idea at the core of TWINE is rather solid. Bond falling in love with the eventual villain, while also dealing with a villain who can feel no pain, all of which is tied up in oil, which was very topical (and still is) at the time. As we all know, things just went massively off the rails and the whole thing turned into something just above the level of a daytime soap opera, but at its core, there's solid Bond film.

    DAD could have been so much more, as it's opening third or so would indicate, before it rather oddly ventures off into the sci-fi realm.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Have to disagree on DAD. It's all totally awful. That hovercraft chase at the start is atrocious. Bond's whole torture thing is forgotten within minutes. That beard... The Philishave... My god, just thinking about makes me want to laugh/cry.

    What were Babs and MGW on back then?
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 1,631
    Getafix wrote: »
    Have to disagree on DAD. It's all totally awful. That hovercraft chase at the start is atrocious. Bond's whole torture thing is forgotten within minutes. That beard... The Philishave... My god, just thinking about makes me want to laugh/cry.

    What were Babs and MGW on back then?

    I'd agree that there are still parts in that initial third of the film that are not particularly great, but the central idea that they tacked all of that stuff onto was pretty good, i.e. Bond being sold out by a traitor within MI6 and left to rot in a military prison for over a year, having to go it alone (before the rogue thing became big in Bond), and prove his worth, etc. A lot of really good things could have been done with that had the filmmakers not chosen to venture off into science-fiction or deal with gene therapy and henchmen with diamonds lodged in their face.

  • Posts: 11,425
    Lots of good things might have been possible with another actor. Time and again though Brosnan showed he couldn't make anything of the material he was given.
  • Posts: 1,631
    I would tend to agree, although I don't think that Brosnan was aided much by the screenwriters who continually turned good ideas into the kind of garbage that we ultimately got to see on the screen.

    But, as you said, other actors might have been able to rise above it a bit more than Brosnan. I think, to go more to the theme of the thread, that GoldenEye would have been a much better film with Dalton in the role, playing opposite the rumored Anthony Hopkins in the Trevelyan role.

    I'm not sure Tomorrow Never Dies would have been improved by someone else. That one seems pretty well tailored for Brosnan and he does a good job in it, even if there are plenty of ways that they could have toned down the action-fest that the story is and done a bit more mature commentary on the state of mass media and their role in world events, which there clearly is some small attempt to do but it ultimately gets bogged down in a very camp turn from Jonathan Pryce.

    Perhaps The World is Not Enough and Die Another Day could have been better serviced by another actor, but outside of someone coming in with Daniel Craig-type control over the filmmakers, script, and pretty much everything else, I'm not sure how much of a difference that it would have made. We might have gotten a better performance out of the guy wearing the tux, but everything around him probably would have still been terrible.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,425
    TND is Brosnan's best Bond. TWINE and DAD were tailored to Brosnan. That's why they're so awful.

    Dalton and Hopkins in GE. Would have been amazing. Oh well. Shame Tim wasn't willing to sign a three picture deal. Fair enough though, he was getting on by then.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    dalton wrote: »
    Perhaps The World is Not Enough and Die Another Day could have been better serviced by another actor, but outside of someone coming in with Daniel Craig-type control over the filmmakers, script, and pretty much everything else, I'm not sure how much of a difference that it would have made. We might have gotten a better performance out of the guy wearing the tux, but everything around him probably would have still been terrible.
    I think an actor can influence a lot of things....indirectly, just by their general skill level and the impression that they convey in their performances. So a different actor may have influenced the casting team to bring in different talent or focused the minds of EON. It's a hypothetical though, so we'll never really know.
  • Posts: 15,118
    bondjames wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Funny how things change over time. I used to think I was the only person in the UK who rated Dalton over Brosnan.

    Now you seem to get a lot of people saying stuff like this:

    http://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2014/apr/14/james-bond-pierce-brosnan-007-goldeneye

    Could have been written by me.
    I'm afraid I agree with every word in that article. However, I think it took Daniel Craig to really make many people realize this. Some were blind to it at the time, but once Craig came along, it became clear to many, if not all.

    There are people that still rate Brosnan. Some as the best of the series. Whether you, I, or anyone else agrees is irrelevant. It's fact.
    And no one said otherwise. He has many fans here, some vocal, some closet, and many out there in the public as well. That was never in doubt.

    Hence your comment about 'many if not all' isn't particularly well founded. People still buy his take and don't find him either lazy or smug.
    It is founded, because the opinion of him being the 'New Connery' was far more established in people's minds before Craig came along. That is the point of that article.

    That opinion is now much less so than it was at the time. From what I have read anyway. Of course, he still has his fans.....as I said, some are very vocal and some are strangely closet, but they are no doubt there in numbers. Not denying that. Even they won't make the 'best since Connery' comment so confidently any more though.....maybe a few.

    Don't remember the new Connery angle, just the 'best since', which everyone gets. I'm sure many have downgraded him, people always need a scapegoat.
    He benefited earlier from Dalton's lack of popularity and Moore's long non-Connery Bond. I think many were quick to suggest he was a 'new Connery' (and I remember hearing this a lot in the media) because of that. In my opinion, such assessments were premature then. Time was needed to put his run and performance in perspective.

    The same applies to Craig as well. Any comparisons to Connery at this time are premature. He needs his successor to do a few before his run can be looked at with the benefit of hindsight and some objectivity, imho.

    Brosnan still has his fans, and they are numerous...., as does Moore and Dalton. However, he was on a pedestal of sorts for a time, and this is no longer the case.

    I think there was A LOT of projection given to Brosnan when he became Bond. No other actor, not even Roger Moore, was ever plebiscited in the role. He was hailed the best since Connery before a single shot of GE was ever filmed. Hence when GE became a success, many were still projecting. Actually, I honestly think many die hard Brosnan fans do.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I'm a Die Hard Brosnan fan and I first saw GoldenEye in 1997, not knowing any Bond films existed prior to GE, I played the game first before seeing the movie. Upon my first seeing GE I was blown away, It was such a fun and enjoyable movie. Whatever projection is going on with people saying Best Since Connery before the movie came out sounds a lot like the same people who really want Elba as Bond which sounds more like a minority of the General public. Is it so hard for Brosnan bashers to accept that others love him in the role and his films? If we Die Hard Brosnan fans project, (Which I for one don't.) then Die Hard Brosnan Bashers overreact too much to his tenure.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Murdock wrote: »
    I'm a Die Hard Brosnan fan and I first saw GoldenEye in 1997, not knowing any Bond films existed prior to GE, I played the game first before seeing the movie. Upon my first seeing GE I was blown away, It was such a fun and enjoyable movie. Whatever projection is going on with people saying Best Since Connery before the movie came out sounds a lot like the same people who really want Elba as Bond which sounds more like a minority of the General public. Is it so hard for Brosnan bashers to accept that others love him in the role and his films? If we Die Hard Brosnan fans project, (Which I for one don't.) then Die Hard Brosnan Bashers overreact too much to his tenure.

    There's a cabal of pseudo-intellectuals for whom Brosnan represents too much fun and whimsy. The kind who find the sound of a man farting into a kazoo and whining about the merits of socialism the pinnacle of artistic merit. I jest... a little.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    RC7 wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    I'm a Die Hard Brosnan fan and I first saw GoldenEye in 1997, not knowing any Bond films existed prior to GE, I played the game first before seeing the movie. Upon my first seeing GE I was blown away, It was such a fun and enjoyable movie. Whatever projection is going on with people saying Best Since Connery before the movie came out sounds a lot like the same people who really want Elba as Bond which sounds more like a minority of the General public. Is it so hard for Brosnan bashers to accept that others love him in the role and his films? If we Die Hard Brosnan fans project, (Which I for one don't.) then Die Hard Brosnan Bashers overreact too much to his tenure.

    There's a cabal of pseudo-intellectuals for whom Brosnan represents too much fun and whimsy. The kind who find the sound of a man farting into a kazoo and whining about the merits of socialism the pinnacle of artistic merit. I jest... a little.

    Maybe some folks need to try the Kazoo. :))
  • Posts: 15,118
    Murdock wrote: »
    I'm a Die Hard Brosnan fan and I first saw GoldenEye in 1997, not knowing any Bond films existed prior to GE, I played the game first before seeing the movie. Upon my first seeing GE I was blown away, It was such a fun and enjoyable movie. Whatever projection is going on with people saying Best Since Connery before the movie came out sounds a lot like the same people who really want Elba as Bond which sounds more like a minority of the General public. Is it so hard for Brosnan bashers to accept that others love him in the role and his films? If we Die Hard Brosnan fans project, (Which I for one don't.) then Die Hard Brosnan Bashers overreact too much to his tenure.

    For the record, I am not a Brosnan basher, GE was the first Bond movie I saw in cinema and I still love it. I could not WAIT for Dalton to leave the series for good before and I was really happy of Brosnan casting. So when I say Brosnan was plebicsited, I am counting myself among the people wanting him as Bond then. I'd still cast him for GE in a heartbeat.

    What I said, however, is that there was a lot of projection in his casting then that made many of us overlook certain shortcomings in his acting. He himself said he remembers GE and the other Bond movies he was in were a blur.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    @Ludovico, my mistake, I wasn't referring to you directly but Brosnan's critics in general. :)
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Murdock wrote: »
    @Ludovico, my mistake, I wasn't referring to you directly but Brosnan's critics in general. :)

    Ditto. My comment was concerning people I've actually met.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    bondjames wrote: »
    AceHole wrote: »
    LTK's strengths rests solidly on it's leading men's performances, and it's stunts (the Wavecrest action sequence is one of "80's Bond's" best), and for that alone it trumps GE for me.
    That's true. Dalton is definitely the highlight, along with Davi. It's great to watch these two go at it. The Brosnan/Bean rivalry in GE did not have the same resonance for me.

    The Wavecrest action sequence, including Kamen's score, is absolutely wonderful. Real Bondian genius, especially when Bond water ski's parallel up to the plane and lands on the side. I wish we had something like that in SP.

    This.
  • Posts: 7,420
    There are some who when defending DAD cite the first third as being good. But I found this part of the film unintentionally funny! The handover scene was supposed to be tense, but Brosnan looks really awkward and silly (The beard and hair didn't help, he looked like he was about to say "Its....!" from Monty Pythons famous opening) and then there was the stopping his heartbeat moment. Well we're in Derek Flint territory here! Daft! Apart from the stunning opening surfer shots and Danny Kleinmans titles, DAD is simply unwatchable. Regarding TWINE. Though it really showed Brossa up for his bad acting, I would only put it ahead of DAD because it had a good central idea, and Sophie Marceau was wonderful. Also really like Robert Carlyle, though his role was seriously underwritten. Apted, I reckon was brought in (to most peoples surprise..even Apted himself!) because he was an actors Director. But he was onto a dead loss with Brossa.
    Someone mentioned Joe Don Baker. I hated that Wade character. A buffoon and I wished they recast. I liked him as Whitaker in TLD, especially his final face off with Bond!
    I'm afraid I'm always going to be put into this category of Brosnan bashers. Being Irish, I should be rallying behind him. But I never liked him as an actor. I don't believe he has made the transition from TV to film convincingly. He simply doesn't have much screen presence.
    And the Bond movies he was in, suffer for it. Having read the Bond novels, Timothy Dalton nailed it, imho, and I was gutted when it was announced he wouldn't return. I was even more gutted when they asked Brossa again. I despaired thinking he was going to appear in. what I thought then, at least 5 or 6 films. Felt he was sucking the life out of the character! Thank God for Babs and Michaels good sense. Craig has restored my faith. On to Bond 25 (With Daniel Craig please!)
  • Posts: 11,189
    If anyone honestly looks more like they should be in a drama on television it's Dalton.

    I'm not saying Dalts is a bad film actor but you line him up alongside Connery, Moore, Brosnan, Craig and even Lazenby he has the look of a serous tv actor rather than a big screen actor.

    I'm not saying Brosnan was always the most convincing actor, but I genuinely believe he has more of a screen presence than Dalton.

    I'd also say Laz has more screen presence than Dalton.
  • Posts: 15,118
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    If anyone honestly looks more like they should be in a drama on television it's Dalton.

    I'm not saying Dalts is a bad film actor but you line him up alongside Connery, Moore, Brosnan, Craig and even Lazenby he has the look of a serous tv actor rather than a big screen actor.

    I'm not saying Brosnan was always the most convincing actor, but I genuinely believe he has more of a screen presence than Dalton.

    I'd also say Laz has more screen presence than Dalton.

    Dalton had a lot more screen presence... In other movies. That's my perception anyway. I always said he seemed uncomfortable with the baggage and history that came with Bond. Brosnan was very comfortable finally playing the icon... But not the character.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I think I agree @Ludovico. Scene stealing supporting parts seem to suit Dalton like a glove.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,717
    Dalton is like Charles Dance - wonderful in meaty supporting characters where they steal every scene they're in. If I had to find this kind of actor in the leading role department, I would answer with Jack Nicholson and John Malkovich.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    I'm glad Dalton didn't. Would have killed or seriously slowed it.

    Dalton was boring as hell. Y'all would have seriously been US hating if that would have happened.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Dalton did my two favourites, Brosnan did my third.
    We got the Bonds we needed, when we needed them.
    The universe is unfolding as it should.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    There are some who when defending DAD cite the first third as being good. But I found this part of the film unintentionally funny! The handover scene was supposed to be tense, but Brosnan looks really awkward and silly (The beard and hair didn't help, he looked like he was about to say "Its....!" from Monty Pythons famous opening) and then there was the stopping his heartbeat moment. Well we're in Derek Flint territory here! Daft! Apart from the stunning opening surfer shots and Danny Kleinmans titles, DAD is simply unwatchable. Regarding TWINE. Though it really showed Brossa up for his bad acting, I would only put it ahead of DAD because it had a good central idea, and Sophie Marceau was wonderful. Also really like Robert Carlyle, though his role was seriously underwritten. Apted, I reckon was brought in (to most peoples surprise..even Apted himself!) because he was an actors Director. But he was onto a dead loss with Brossa.
    Someone mentioned Joe Don Baker. I hated that Wade character. A buffoon and I wished they recast. I liked him as Whitaker in TLD, especially his final face off with Bond!
    I'm afraid I'm always going to be put into this category of Brosnan bashers. Being Irish, I should be rallying behind him. But I never liked him as an actor. I don't believe he has made the transition from TV to film convincingly. He simply doesn't have much screen presence.
    And the Bond movies he was in, suffer for it. Having read the Bond novels, Timothy Dalton nailed it, imho, and I was gutted when it was announced he wouldn't return. I was even more gutted when they asked Brossa again. I despaired thinking he was going to appear in. what I thought then, at least 5 or 6 films. Felt he was sucking the life out of the character! Thank God for Babs and Michaels good sense. Craig has restored my faith. On to Bond 25 (With Daniel Craig please!)

    Totally agree with every word.
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    If anyone honestly looks more like they should be in a drama on television it's Dalton.

    I'm not saying Dalts is a bad film actor but you line him up alongside Connery, Moore, Brosnan, Craig and even Lazenby he has the look of a serous tv actor rather than a big screen actor.

    I'm not saying Brosnan was always the most convincing actor, but I genuinely believe he has more of a screen presence than Dalton.

    I'd also say Laz has more screen presence than Dalton.

    I'd reverse this and say that Brosnan works better as a film actor in most roles other than Bond, but Dalton pretty much nailed it as Bond from the opening scenes of TLD. I don't think it's bashing Brosnan to say the opening hour or so of TLD is amongst the best in any Bond movie, and that's largely down to Dalton.

    Dalton's not perfect but he was a better Bond than Brosnan.

  • Posts: 11,189
    I actually agree Getafix that Dalton is a superior Bond to Broz in terms of his overall commitment to the character. HOWEVER I still think that his "tv drama" look was one of his shortcomings.

    Seriously, look at most of Dalton's work and its made up of television stuff. He physically works better on the small screen.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    Yeah, even Lazenby had more charisma than Dalton.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I think they were both lacking in the charisma department compared to Moore/Connery and even Lazenby. I've always felt this way. Brosnan was more clean cut and groomed (particularly the hair) and Dalton was physically more imposing (at least to my eyes). However, I personally did not feel that either really transcended their tv roots.

    Brosnan was more popular in the US market due to his tv career in the 80's and mainly B movie career pre-Bond. He used Bond very effectively to become a semi-A lister for a while, which is to his credit.

    Dalton was a relative unknown.....perhaps a complete unknown stateside and didn't really translate his Bond role into larger parts while he had the part.
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think they were both lacking in the charisma department compared to Moore/Connery and even Lazenby. I've always felt this way. Brosnan was more clean cut and groomed (particularly the hair) and Dalton was physically more imposing (at least to my eyes). However, I personally did not feel that either really transcended their tv roots.

    Brosnan was more popular in the US market due to his tv career in the 80's and mainly B movie career pre-Bond. He used Bond very effectively to become a semi-A lister for a while, which is to his credit.

    Dalton was a relative unknown.....perhaps a complete unknown stateside and didn't really translate his Bond role into larger parts while he had the part.

    Fair comments.

    I think Dalton's legacy is stronger. When casual fans (who normally dismiss Dalton) actually sit and watch his two, I find they're usually pleasantly surprised.

    The opening of TLD is great classic Bond entertainment, and Dalton completely sells it.

    May he never completely made the transition to the big screen, but for the first hour of TLD he transcends whatever his limitations were and gives us a great Bond performance.
  • Posts: 11,189
    "Whoever she was I must have scared the living daylights out of her".

    That's a great moment from Dalton.

    Still don't like "better make that two" or some of the Q and MP stuff though.
Sign In or Register to comment.