Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • edited December 2015 Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Dalton in his Vantage from TLD driving into Monaco please. Not the DB5.
    Agreed actually. That would have been great and a nice tie back to TLD linking the cold war and everything in between.

    If only...

    Seriously though, you prefer GE to SP?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Dalton in his Vantage from TLD driving into Monaco please. Not the DB5.
    Agreed actually. That would have been great and a nice tie back to TLD linking the cold war and everything in between.

    If only...

    Seriously though, you prefer GE to SP?
    At the moment, yes. They both have their ups and downs for me, but I find GE much more fun, more colourful (Monaco) and more lively/upbeat with more charisma (even if camp) and contribution from the supporting actors (like SF). It's playful and reminds me of the earlier Bonds (although I know you think it's a big break from those). As I said elsewhere, my mood after I watch GE is like after I watch OP. Just happy.

    I can't really say for SP until I see it on the small screen, because I think the colour filters are overwhelming me in the theatre. I want to watch it back to back with the other Craig films before I can have a better understanding of where I'm going to finally put it in my ranking. I have a feeling it will all potentially look much grander on the small screen. At the moment I'll place hold it at 10 out of 24 because of Craig (he is the predominant memory I have of SP because his performance anchors it) and because it's the newest one.
  • edited December 2015 Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Dalton in his Vantage from TLD driving into Monaco please. Not the DB5.
    Agreed actually. That would have been great and a nice tie back to TLD linking the cold war and everything in between.

    If only...

    Seriously though, you prefer GE to SP?
    At the moment, yes. They both have their ups and downs for me, but I find GE much more fun, more colourful (Monaco) and more lively/upbeat with more charisma (even if camp) and contribution from the supporting actors (like SF). It's playful and reminds me of the earlier Bonds (although I know you think it's a big break from those). As I said elsewhere, my mood after I watch GE is like after I watch OP. Just happy.

    I can't really say for SP until I see it on the small screen, because I think the colour filters are overwhelming me in the theatre. I want to watch it back to back with the other Craig films on the small screen before I can have a better understanding of where I'm going to finally put it in my ranking. I have a feeling it will all potentially look much grander on the small screen. At the moment I'll place hold it at 10 out of 24 because of Craig (he is the predominant memory I have of SP because his performance anchors it) and because it's the newest one.

    So GE sits above SP in the top ten...

    I never cease to be amazed by what otherwise sensible members on here see in GE. I personally struggle to think of a single level on which GE comes close, let alone outperforms SP. Not even the score, and that's saying something!

    If I wanted to watch a Bond movie that would make me really depressed about life, the world and everything in it, then I know I can reliably turn to GE.

    It's like a late entry in the Carry On series, without the wit.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Dalton in his Vantage from TLD driving into Monaco please. Not the DB5.
    Agreed actually. That would have been great and a nice tie back to TLD linking the cold war and everything in between.

    If only...

    Seriously though, you prefer GE to SP?
    At the moment, yes. They both have their ups and downs for me, but I find GE much more fun, more colourful (Monaco) and more lively/upbeat with more charisma (even if camp) and contribution from the supporting actors (like SF). It's playful and reminds me of the earlier Bonds (although I know you think it's a big break from those). As I said elsewhere, my mood after I watch GE is like after I watch OP. Just happy.

    I can't really say for SP until I see it on the small screen, because I think the colour filters are overwhelming me in the theatre. I want to watch it back to back with the other Craig films on the small screen before I can have a better understanding of where I'm going to finally put it in my ranking. I have a feeling it will all potentially look much grander on the small screen. At the moment I'll place hold it at 10 out of 24 because of Craig (he is the predominant memory I have of SP because his performance anchors it) and because it's the newest one.

    So GE sits above SP in the top ten...

    I never cease to be amazed by what otherwise sensible members on here see in GE. I personally struggle to think of a single level on which GE comes close, let alone outperforms SP. Not even the score, and that's saying something!
    You know, there really might be a large component of nostalgia there. It could just be the great vibe I had in 1995 with seeing Bond return with his mojo intact, even if inhabited by (an admittedly suave but unsure) Brosnan. They was just such a throwback feeling at that time. My friends and I came out of the theatre on such a high. As the teaser said: "You can always depend on one man!"
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,589
    GoldenEye is still my #1, but has been teetering there for years. It is only still there because it was my first Bond film and I'm sentimental about it. I think 3 of the 4 Craig movies are definitely better. I don't know what it will take to finally replace GE at the top.
  • Posts: 7,434
    I agree totally with Getafix. I'm quite baffled at GE popularity! it is the one Bond movie in the entire series that has aged very badly! Anyway, back on topic. I think a more interesting What if? is what would have been if Roger called it a day after OP, and Dalton was signed for AVTAK? Now I know Rogs swansong comes in for a lot of criticism, and I would be leading the pack. But if Dalton had been cast, they probably would have made a lot of changes, I'm sure. The humour being the most obvious! That misguided musical joke in the pts, the screaming taxi driver in Paris, the thugs being packaged up in the crates, and of course that awful, Keystone Cops fire engine chase! Christopher Walken was a fantastic villain, it had an interesting plot (an updating of GF main plot) and a couple of very good action scenes, the pre-credits, the car chase, the steeplechase (my favourite!) and the well staged finale on The Golden Gate Bridge! Plus, of course Duran Durans song title! I think Dalton would have elevated to a higher plain,...though I'm really not sure how he would have handled Grace Jones MayDay!!
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    [quote="Mathis1;528752"I'm quite baffled at GE popularity![/quote]It created a new generation of James Bond fans. Not to mention had the best video game tie in to boost it's popularity further cementing GE as an iconic movie and game legend. GoldenEye is simply the best and wouldn't change anything about it. It was Perfect!



  • Posts: 11,425
    Murdock wrote: »
    [quote="Mathis1;528752"I'm quite baffled at GE popularity!
    It created a new generation of James Bond fans. Not to mention had the best video game tie in to boost it's popularity further cementing GE as an iconic movie and game legend. GoldenEye is simply the best and wouldn't change anything about it. It was Perfect!



    [/quote]

    I understand the game was popular but I don't really understand why that should now be a factor in its long term critical appreciation.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Getafix wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    [quote="Mathis1;528752"I'm quite baffled at GE popularity!
    It created a new generation of James Bond fans. Not to mention had the best video game tie in to boost it's popularity further cementing GE as an iconic movie and game legend. GoldenEye is simply the best and wouldn't change anything about it. It was Perfect!



    I understand the game was popular but I don't really understand why that should now be a factor in its long term critical appreciation.
    [/quote]
    You just had to have grown up in that era I suppose. As I said, it created a new generation of Bond fans for 90's kids, the game helped as well.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    It brought some good people to this site. I can appreciate it for that, but not much else.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,589
    The game plus the film is what made me a fan back in 99
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    The game plus the film is what made me a fan back in 99
    Same here. 97 was a great year to be introduced to both. So many good memories. :)

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    This discussion makes me want to rewatch GE for the millionth time.. Off I go to pop the disc in my Blu Ray player! \m/
  • ThomasCrown76ThomasCrown76 Augusta, ks
    Posts: 757
    Only Timothy Dalton could have played opposite Fran Drescher. It wouldn't be the same with pierce or Daniel
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited December 2015 Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    I agree @BAIN123. It's regrettable that Craig is seen as the first actor to peel back the layers.......revisionist history imho.

    Dalton definitely did that decades ago, and to some extent, it can be argued that he actually did it better, since he did it within the confines of 'formula Bond'.

    That's not to discount Craig's contributions to the series, which have indeed been formidable. It's just that Dalton does not get his fair shake, that's for sure.

    I am pleased to read all your comments @bondjames @bain123 and @getafix

    For Craig to take all the credit for what Dalton initiated years back is unfair. To me it is an injustice and The truth will out. Craig had a feast to choose from in terms of the past contributions as to how he would mix and match his portrayal. No man is an island. Craig owes a debt to Connery and Dalton in equal measure.

    But people in the media like GQ Magazine are playing an important role in highligting some cold hard facts about where the Craig era owes a debt to.

    And remember that in my time, Brosnan was seen as the new Connery. His popularity at the time of his tenure felt to me even more popular than Craig. Everyone was talking about Brosnan how he was up therre with Connery. Hardly anyone I talked to around the time of TND thought badly of Brosnan.

    My point is that opinions can change in a heartbeat. Connery being the original, is more or less beyond criticism and crosses the generations superbly.

    I think Brosnan on the whole, was a splendid Bond in Goldeneye and could show a dark side. He looked great. He is like Dalton's younger brother who is slightly naughtier and less serious. I like the dark look Bond image a lot as in Byronic.

    The public are fickle my friends. More so now than 30 years ago.

    And Craig has gone down in my estimation for not giving some credit to Dalton. When Craig was receiving all the media hate upon his casting, Dalton was the first actor to defend the casting choice and countering the negative claims.

    I have more respect for Brosanan as a person than Craig. Brosnan gave credit where it was due and admired Dalton's courage.





  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    Yes, Craig lost brownie points with me as well after the faux suicidal ideations he made.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Craig lost brownie points for ME for his haircut in SF. :))
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Craig lost brownie points for ME for his haircut in SF. :))

    Lol ...yes it was a very very bad hair day for Bond.

    Maybe he thought if his hair was short no one would notice his suits were tailored two sizes too small

    :P
  • Posts: 1,631
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Yes, Craig lost brownie points with me as well after the faux suicidal ideations he made.

    Very much agreed. I was also rather confused by the lengths that some were willing to go to in order to defend Craig for those comments, while outright slamming Brosnan for having the slightest critique of SPECTRE while having nothing but praise for Craig's work in the film.

    The fact of the matter is that Craig is not the first actor to attempt a serious portrayal of Bond, yet it would seem that the media would like to crown him as such, or at least the first to attempt it since Sean Connery. While it would be nice if Dalton would get the credit that he clearly deserves, if for nothing else but attempting to bring the franchise back to something both closer to the novels as well as more in line with the tone of the original films as opposed to the camp of Diamonds are Forever onward, I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen. Still, hopefully Craig's films have caused a few people to go back and give Dalton another look, and see that he was ahead of his time rather than the failure that many people perceive him to be.

  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    edited December 2015 Posts: 4,116
    dalton wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Yes, Craig lost brownie points with me as well after the faux suicidal ideations he made.

    Very much agreed. I was also rather confused by the lengths that some were willing to go to in order to defend Craig for those comments, while outright slamming Brosnan for having the slightest critique of SPECTRE while having nothing but praise for Craig's work in the film.

    The fact of the matter is that Craig is not the first actor to attempt a serious portrayal of Bond, yet it would seem that the media would like to crown him as such, or at least the first to attempt it since Sean Connery. While it would be nice if Dalton would get the credit that he clearly deserves, if for nothing else but attempting to bring the franchise back to something both closer to the novels as well as more in line with the tone of the original films as opposed to the camp of Diamonds are Forever onward, I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen. Still, hopefully Craig's films have caused a few people to go back and give Dalton another look, and see that he was ahead of his time rather than the failure that many people perceive him to be.

    My opinion of Dalton has swayed back and forth ..thanks to a few here that have encouraged me to reevaluate Dalton I am back on board.

    I was a fan of Dalton during his tenure as Bond but I felt alone ...

    I have been critical of Dalton here but that's changing. I was too harsh...

    My gripe against the Dalton films still remains to be Glen. I really wish another director had helmed Dalton's outings.

    Sorry ...the acting in those two especially LTK just ruins what should have been classic outings.

    Sorry I had to vent.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    dalton wrote: »
    Still, hopefully Craig's films have caused a few people to go back and give Dalton another look, and see that he was ahead of his time rather than the failure that many people perceive him to be.
    Ever see Looney Tunes: Back In Action? If many perceived him as a failure why did they use him in that? It was hilarious! Tim rules. Then & now. Craig is great though.
  • Posts: 1,631
    chrisisall wrote: »
    dalton wrote: »
    Still, hopefully Craig's films have caused a few people to go back and give Dalton another look, and see that he was ahead of his time rather than the failure that many people perceive him to be.
    Ever see Looney Tunes: Back In Action? If many perceived him as a failure why did they use him in that? It was hilarious! Tim rules. Then & now. Craig is great though.

    Can't say that I've seen that one. I would imagine that they probably used him in that one because 1) he probably came cheaper than someone like Connery or Moore and 2) was actually willing to do it. ;)

    I don't think that everyone considers him a failure, but rather just the general movie-going audience that doesn't consume the Bond films in the way that hardcore fans of the franchise or people who are otherwise more inclined to give the films more than just the single viewing in the cinema as a way to pass the time. I do think that there is a potential re-evaluation getting underway for Dalton, thanks in part to Craig's films, but also because enough time has passed for a lot of people to forget the 6 year gap between Licence to Kill and GoldenEye and how that almost was it for the franchise. I think that you see that kind of re-evaluation starting with something like Dalton's turn on Chuck which, while not watched by a huge number of people since the show had rather mediocre ratings, was very popular with the fans who watched the show and probably caused more than a few to go back and search through his catalogue of films.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    dalton wrote: »
    Can't say that I've seen that one.
    Oh please do. Dalton was excellent in it, if only in a small part of it!
    dalton wrote:
    Dalton's turn on Chuck which, while not watched by a huge number of people since the show had rather mediocre ratings
    I think you underestimate its popularity at the time. It made me a permanent Subway customer. :))
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,731
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    dalton wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Yes, Craig lost brownie points with me as well after the faux suicidal ideations he made.

    Very much agreed. I was also rather confused by the lengths that some were willing to go to in order to defend Craig for those comments, while outright slamming Brosnan for having the slightest critique of SPECTRE while having nothing but praise for Craig's work in the film.

    The fact of the matter is that Craig is not the first actor to attempt a serious portrayal of Bond, yet it would seem that the media would like to crown him as such, or at least the first to attempt it since Sean Connery. While it would be nice if Dalton would get the credit that he clearly deserves, if for nothing else but attempting to bring the franchise back to something both closer to the novels as well as more in line with the tone of the original films as opposed to the camp of Diamonds are Forever onward, I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen. Still, hopefully Craig's films have caused a few people to go back and give Dalton another look, and see that he was ahead of his time rather than the failure that many people perceive him to be.

    My opinion of Dalton has swayed back and forth ..thanks to a few here that have encouraged me to reevaluate Dalton I am back on board.

    I was a fan of Dalton during his tenure as Bond but I felt alone ...

    I have been critical of Dalton here but that's changing. I was too harsh...

    My gripe against the Dalton films still remains to be Glen. I really wish another director had helmed Dalton's outings.

    Sorry ...the acting in those two especially LTK just ruins what should have been classic outings.

    Sorry I had to vent.

    The mark of an excellent actor is surely that they can rescue even the most dire of films... and Dalton has done that countless times.

    Let's flip the coin here - can you imagine LTK with Brosnan..? :-&
  • edited December 2015 Posts: 11,425
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    dalton wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Yes, Craig lost brownie points with me as well after the faux suicidal ideations he made.

    Very much agreed. I was also rather confused by the lengths that some were willing to go to in order to defend Craig for those comments, while outright slamming Brosnan for having the slightest critique of SPECTRE while having nothing but praise for Craig's work in the film.

    The fact of the matter is that Craig is not the first actor to attempt a serious portrayal of Bond, yet it would seem that the media would like to crown him as such, or at least the first to attempt it since Sean Connery. While it would be nice if Dalton would get the credit that he clearly deserves, if for nothing else but attempting to bring the franchise back to something both closer to the novels as well as more in line with the tone of the original films as opposed to the camp of Diamonds are Forever onward, I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen. Still, hopefully Craig's films have caused a few people to go back and give Dalton another look, and see that he was ahead of his time rather than the failure that many people perceive him to be.

    My opinion of Dalton has swayed back and forth ..thanks to a few here that have encouraged me to reevaluate Dalton I am back on board.

    I was a fan of Dalton during his tenure as Bond but I felt alone ...

    I have been critical of Dalton here but that's changing. I was too harsh...

    My gripe against the Dalton films still remains to be Glen. I really wish another director had helmed Dalton's outings.

    Sorry ...the acting in those two especially LTK just ruins what should have been classic outings.

    Sorry I had to vent.

    May be if we can convince you to reassess Dalton then we can also get you to reevaluate the criminally under appreciated John Glen as well. The man gave cinema some of the most iconic action sequences ever committed to celluloid and (IMO) five of the most consistently entertaining entries in the whole series. Even his less good films as Bond director have a lot going for them.

    His action sequences for LTK have been referenced and ripped off by so many other films and yet people make out that he's a director of no consequence.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Glen had a lot of things going for him IMO - animal scare, an ensemble ally crew without going into 'Team-Mi6' (Q, Minister of Defense, Moneypenny, M, General Gogol all had very limited screentime yet they were always there for a sense of familiarity), frequent aerial sequences, underwater sequences, snow sequences that are very Bondian.
  • Posts: 11,425
    He also handled suspense very well i think.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Getafix wrote: »
    He also handled suspense very well i think.

    The bomb-chase sequence in OP is by far the most intense sequence in the entire franchise so I agree.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    edited December 2015 Posts: 1,731
    Getafix wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    dalton wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Yes, Craig lost brownie points with me as well after the faux suicidal ideations he made.

    Very much agreed. I was also rather confused by the lengths that some were willing to go to in order to defend Craig for those comments, while outright slamming Brosnan for having the slightest critique of SPECTRE while having nothing but praise for Craig's work in the film.

    The fact of the matter is that Craig is not the first actor to attempt a serious portrayal of Bond, yet it would seem that the media would like to crown him as such, or at least the first to attempt it since Sean Connery. While it would be nice if Dalton would get the credit that he clearly deserves, if for nothing else but attempting to bring the franchise back to something both closer to the novels as well as more in line with the tone of the original films as opposed to the camp of Diamonds are Forever onward, I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen. Still, hopefully Craig's films have caused a few people to go back and give Dalton another look, and see that he was ahead of his time rather than the failure that many people perceive him to be.

    My opinion of Dalton has swayed back and forth ..thanks to a few here that have encouraged me to reevaluate Dalton I am back on board.

    I was a fan of Dalton during his tenure as Bond but I felt alone ...

    I have been critical of Dalton here but that's changing. I was too harsh...

    My gripe against the Dalton films still remains to be Glen. I really wish another director had helmed Dalton's outings.

    Sorry ...the acting in those two especially LTK just ruins what should have been classic outings.

    Sorry I had to vent.

    May be if we can convince you to reassess Dalton then we can also get you to reevaluate the criminally under appreciated John Glen as well. The man gave cinema some of the most iconic action sequences ever committed to celluloid and (IMO) five of the most consistently entertaining entries in the whole series. Even his less good films as Bond director have a lot going for them.

    His action sequences for LTK have been referenced and ripped off by so many other films and yet people make out that he's a director of no consequence.

    Yup.

    John Glen's greatest hits, action sequences which he oversaw & filmed:

    - OHMSS ski chase(s), bobsleigh finale
    - TSWLM pts, Lotus chase
    - MR pts
    - FYEO ski chase
    - OP pts, plane stunt finale
    - TLD pts, C-130 stunts (Necros fight & Jeep escape)
    - LTK pts, wavecrest action

    It is no coincidence that the 3 Bond entries between OHMSS and TSWLM have flat action that just doesn't jump off the screen in the same way. Glen wasn't involved...

    Not to mention he was also responsible for filming most of the action sequences in Richard Donner's 'Superman' (1978) as well.
  • Posts: 7,653
    I think that the car stunt in TMWTGG is brilliant especially when you know that there is no CGI involved.
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