Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

15455575960104

Comments

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    No one was devastated to say goodbye to Tim.

    He just wasn't buttering any parsnips for anyone except hardcore Fleming fans and no one cares what those people think.

    Studio, public and producers (whatever they may say about wanting to carry on with Tim) were happy the change took place.

    And the fact is Broz did save the series at its most fragile moment since 1974 when it looked like the public weren't going to take to Rog.

    Had Tim come back in 95 would GE have been as massive a hit? I'm not so sure and a second film of underwhelming box office would have forced them into a change. Not sure it would make that big a difference to the overall timeline with Broz just stepping in a film later, although maybe then with just 3 films under his belt after DAD maybe they would have kept him on and just done a FYEO with CR?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    People wanted Brosnan. The Americans wanted Brosnan. Brosnan wanted Brosnan. It's only near the end of Brosnan tenure that Dalton was reevaluated as Bond. People here seem to forget the borderline hostility Dalton was facing at the time.

    Was that an argument at the time? At least he wanted to become Bond.

    :-j

    It was to many people including me at the time. I've said it before and I'll say it again: no Bond actor has ever had is as easy as Brosnan when he got the role. He was borderline plebiscited. Dalton on the otger hand had his fans but they had already lost the argument, maybe as early as TLD. That is utterly unfair but that's what it was then.
    Roger Moore was as hard an act to follow (popularity wise) as Sean Connery.
  • Posts: 1,052
    Tim said he would never follow Connery, perhaps he underestimated following Moore?
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 11,425
    No one was devastated to say goodbye to Tim.

    He just wasn't buttering any parsnips for anyone except hardcore Fleming fans and no one cares what those people think.

    Studio, public and producers (whatever they may say about wanting to carry on with Tim) were happy the change took place.

    And the fact is Broz did save the series at its most fragile moment since 1974 when it looked like the public weren't going to take to Rog.

    Had Tim come back in 95 would GE have been as massive a hit? I'm not so sure and a second film of underwhelming box office would have forced them into a change. Not sure it would make that big a difference to the overall timeline with Broz just stepping in a film later, although maybe then with just 3 films under his belt after DAD maybe they would have kept him on and just done a FYEO with CR?

    What a terrifying thought! CR ruined by having Brozza in it.

    We all dodged a bullet there.

    LTK performed perfectly well commercially outside the U.S. - and stateside the marketing was catastrophically mishandled.

    Look back now at US film reviews from the time and it's also surprising how well received LTK was critically too. Dalton was winning plaudits for his performance and the grittier take on Bond.

    There's a lazy assumption now that people at the time 'didn't get' Dalton's take on Bond, but the picture is much more nuanced than that. As you say after Gun it wasn't clear that audiences were going to accept Rog, but then Spy changed everything.

    Six years would have been a long gap though and you can see why they either needed Dalton to commit to three or move on.

    I am just grateful we got those two Dalton films and were spared having Brosnan in the role from 87 to 2002.

    Although a commercial success, Brosnan was artisitically the worst thing that ever happened to Bond. The series went into creative limbo during his tenure and far from being an aberration DAD was the logical conclusion to the Brosnan era.


  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    No one was devastated to say goodbye to Tim.

    He just wasn't buttering any parsnips for anyone except hardcore Fleming fans and no one cares what those people think.

    Studio, public and producers (whatever they may say about wanting to carry on with Tim) were happy the change took place.

    And the fact is Broz did save the series at its most fragile moment since 1974 when it looked like the public weren't going to take to Rog.

    Had Tim come back in 95 would GE have been as massive a hit? I'm not so sure and a second film of underwhelming box office would have forced them into a change. Not sure it would make that big a difference to the overall timeline with Broz just stepping in a film later, although maybe then with just 3 films under his belt after DAD maybe they would have kept him on and just done a FYEO with CR?

    Agree with all your points. But I remember watch GE in 95 (at the age 13) and thinking that LTK was a much better film. I also remember thinking PB was 'ok' but not a patch on Connery or Moore.
  • ChriscoopChriscoop North Yorkshire
    Posts: 281
    I've grown to appreciate Dalton, as boy I was horrified Roger Moore was gone, and didn't take to Dalton then. After all I'd been looking at Moore's face on the back of cereal boxes. But as an adult I love LTK and LD, I think now Dalton could have made a great GE, though Brozzer did a sterling job.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    I loved TLD & LTK as a child and even more now. Both brilliant films.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    As a fan of the fantastic Fleming novels, I really think Dalton did his research
    and gave us the literary Bond on screen. Similar to Craig, who admittedly looks
    nothing like how Fleming described 007. Brings the character, his Brutality,
    inner demons, his sense of duty, from the page to screen.
    I can only hope the "next fella" will be as good, or better ? =D>
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    As a fan of the fantastic Fleming novels, I really think Dalton did his research
    and gave us the literary Bond on screen. Similar to Craig, who admittedly looks
    nothing like how Fleming described 007. Brings the character, his Brutality,
    inner demons, his sense of duty, from the page to screen.
    I can only hope the "next fella" will be as good, or better ? =D>

    Well said. That's why I am in support of Hiddleston.....for all these reasons......but adding back the snobbery too.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I too am hoping for Hiddleston , I think he'll be another to bring, that sort or research, the
    swagger, arrogance , physicality yet humanity of Bond.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Agreed again.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Hiddles would be okay but the prospect doesn't fill me with excitment. Sort of an obvious choice at this point.

    Bring back Dalton!
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 11,425
    Roger Ebert's review from back in 1989.

    http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/licence-to-kill-1989

    Dalton 'can have the role as long as he enjoys it'.

    'Licence to Kill is one of the best recent Bonds'.

    Hardly suggests US critics saw it as the turkey that many now claim it was seen as being at the time.

    There are plenty more reviews like this from the time.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    It did horrendously at the US box office, irrespective of critical acclaim, and Dalton wasn't accepted as Bond. The shadow of Moore was too large & folks wanted Brosnan (whether rightly or wrongly is a different discussion).
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 11,425
    Well, there are lots of reasons it underperformed in the US, not least appallingly bad marketing. As I said, it did fine everywhere else and was actually well reviewed in the US - at the time there was little or none of the negativity regarding Dalton that i think was actually a retrospective thing with people blaming/associating him with the 6 year hiatus.

    Regarding Dalton not being accepted I think this case is unproven. Had Rog quit after two, many would say the same of him. But Spy totally changed perceptions and he never looked back after that.

    A third Dalton with a more lighthearted story and who knows what the reaction might have been. I have no doubt GE would have been much improved by Dalton's presence.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I agree. I meant he was not accepted after the first two in the US (at least LALD was a huge success for Rog). There appears to have been a serious case of missing Moore.

    I don't think the Fleming direction helped either. At the time, after 12 yrs of increasing humour, the public's perception of filmic Bond was set, and Dalton's pivot to the book character seemed too jarring for a lot of people to accept.

    If he had been better with the humour (and if there had been more of it) this might have helped, but chaps like Willis, Gibson & Arnie were owning that space post-Moore (and ironically they were channeling Moore humour in their biggest entries).
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    Getafix wrote: »
    Well, there are lots of reasons it underperformed in the US, not least appallingly bad marketing. As I said, it did fine everywhere else and was actually well reviewed in the US - at the time there was little or none of the negativity regarding Dalton that i think was actually a retrospective thing with people blaming/associating him with the 6 year hiatus.

    Regarding Dalton not being accepted I think this case is unproven. Had Rog quit after two, many would say the same of him. But Spy totally changed perceptions and he never looked back after that.

    A third Dalton with a more lighthearted story and who knows what the reaction might have been. I have no doubt GE would have been much improved by Dalton's presence.

    In retrospect, LTK was one of the better action films of the 80's. Or at least one of the most underrated.
  • Posts: 15,125
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    People wanted Brosnan. The Americans wanted Brosnan. Brosnan wanted Brosnan. It's only near the end of Brosnan tenure that Dalton was reevaluated as Bond. People here seem to forget the borderline hostility Dalton was facing at the time.

    Was that an argument at the time? At least he wanted to become Bond.

    :-j

    It was to many people including me at the time. I've said it before and I'll say it again: no Bond actor has ever had is as easy as Brosnan when he got the role. He was borderline plebiscited. Dalton on the otger hand had his fans but they had already lost the argument, maybe as early as TLD. That is utterly unfair but that's what it was then.
    Roger Moore was as hard an act to follow (popularity wise) as Sean Connery.

    Yes absolutely but the fact that Brosnan was the presumptive heir didn't help. Had Brosnan done TLD he would have at least been first choice and with a relatively popular tv series to back him up. By the time GE came out they had already sold Brosnan as Bond.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 11,425
    I don't know. TLD did fine everywhere. LTK did fine everywhere apart from the US (which was arguably largely due to poor marketing) and was well reviewed everywhere, including the U.S.

    So the basis for saying Dalton wasn't accepted is one under-performing movie in one (admitedly crucial) market, where the film was barely promoted by the studio.

    These days the relative importance of the U.S. market is much less, which is one reason EON has the freedom to make more imaginative casting decisions with the lead, such as Craig.

    I agree that if you ask the average Joe their attitude towards Dalton would be negative, but that's something that came later and was not evident at the time. The same is true of Laz, despite him starring in one of the best films.

    In the late 80s Dalton was establishing himself, just as Rog had done before him. He was getting good reviews and his films performed well in every market apart from LTK in the U.S. Had he done three more, that would have just come to be seen as a blip, as we now look at the relatively poor performance of TMWTGG - a part of the cyclical waxing and waning of Bond's performance at the box office.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    People wanted Brosnan. The Americans wanted Brosnan. Brosnan wanted Brosnan. It's only near the end of Brosnan tenure that Dalton was reevaluated as Bond. People here seem to forget the borderline hostility Dalton was facing at the time.

    Was that an argument at the time? At least he wanted to become Bond.

    :-j

    It was to many people including me at the time. I've said it before and I'll say it again: no Bond actor has ever had is as easy as Brosnan when he got the role. He was borderline plebiscited. Dalton on the otger hand had his fans but they had already lost the argument, maybe as early as TLD. That is utterly unfair but that's what it was then.
    Roger Moore was as hard an act to follow (popularity wise) as Sean Connery.

    Yes absolutely but the fact that Brosnan was the presumptive heir didn't help. Had Brosnan done TLD he would have at least been first choice and with a relatively popular tv series to back him up. By the time GE came out they had already sold Brosnan as Bond.
    Very true. He had the longest marketing buildup of anyone who's taken the role. 9 yrs, to be exact.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    Getafix wrote: »
    I don't know. TLD did fine everywhere. LTK did fine everywhere apart from the US (which was arguably largely due to poor marketing) and was well reviewed everywhere, including the U.S.

    So the basis for saying Dalton wasn't accepted is one under-performing movie in one (admitedly crucial) market, where the film was barely promoted by the studio.

    These days the relative importance of the U.S. market is much less, which is one reason EON has the freedom to make more imaginative casting decisions with the lead, such as Craig.

    I agree, but it also leads to pandering, like Bond jetting off to Shanghai.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    I don't know. TLD did fine everywhere. LTK did fine everywhere apart from the US (which was arguably largely due to poor marketing) and was well reviewed everywhere, including the U.S.

    So the basis for saying Dalton wasn't accepted is one under-performing movie in one (admitedly crucial) market, where the film was barely promoted by the studio.

    These days the relative importance of the U.S. market is much less, which is one reason EON has the freedom to make more imaginative casting decisions with the lead, such as Craig.
    Yes, TLD did reasonably well, but it didn't ignite. As the first film from a new actor, the expectation was that it would come out very strong. Instead it played like an average Moore entry post-70's peak, box office wise. Both DN & LALD did set the world on fire box office wise as did GE. CR lit it on fire critically.

    The US market is still much more critical (marketing and brand wise) than people give it credit for. I'm 99% sure that the SP story will not continue (going on the record here now) and that is because of how poorly the film did in the US.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 11,425
    Well Shanghai would have been fine if they'd actually done some real location scenes there and worked it properly into the story. A proper China set Bond film is arguably long overdue.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    Getafix wrote: »
    Well Shanghai would have been fine if they'd actually done some real location scenes there and worked it properly into the story. A proper China set Bond film is arguably long overdue.

    Indeed, but what we got was shameless pandering.
  • Posts: 15,125
    @Getafix there's a massive differences between Moore and Dalton: Moore was already a tv star with a rather important fan base. He was never second choice either. He did TSWLM because he had a personal popularity Dalton never had. Dalton had not the same capital at any moment of his tenure.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Yeah, but surely the US sequences in LALD, View and LTK were similar (not always successful) attempts to pander to the American market?
  • Posts: 11,189
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @Getafix there's a massive differences between Moore and Dalton: Moore was already a tv star with a rather important fan base. He was never second choice either. He did TSWLM because he had a personal popularity Dalton never had. Dalton had not the same capital at any moment of his tenure.

    That's what I've argued in the past too. Moore was popular with both the British and the Americans.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    Getafix wrote: »
    Yeah, but surely the US sequences in LALD, View and LTK were similar (not always successful) attempts to pander to the American market?

    No, because they either use the location well, or it just makes sense to the story. Bond randomly jetting off to China only to return virtually the next day is a different story.
  • Posts: 1,052
    I think if you look at the figures TMWTGG was actually a pretty big hit considering it was rushed out and the ticket sales are way ahead a lot of the 80's entries. TLD in real terms was not that much of a hike in attendance compared to AVTAK. I think at the end of the 80's Bond was just seen as a bit old hat as opposed to any real hatred of Dalton?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I think if you look at the figures TMWTGG was actually a pretty big hit considering it was rushed out and the ticket sales are way ahead a lot of the 80's entries. TLD in real terms was not that much of a hike in attendance compared to AVTAK. I think at the end of the 80's Bond was just seen as a bit old hat as opposed to any real hatred of Dalton?
    TMWTGG is certainly more successful on a ticket sale basis than is widely presumed. Yes, I believe Bond was languishing in the 80's and was being overtaken by more dynamic (and violent) American heroes. TV was also becoming more stylish and artsy (Miami Vice being the prime example).

    They needed to forge a new direction definitely post-Moore. They had the right idea, but I believe Dalton's characterization was the wrong one for the times and perhaps he was the wrong man too. That wasn't what people wanted of Bond at the time. If he had been Bond in 2006, I think he would have done very well.
Sign In or Register to comment.