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Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited January 2017 Posts: 7,139
    Favourite swansongs:

    1. On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    2. Licence to Kill
    3. A View to a Kill
    4. Die Another Day
    5. Diamonds Are Forever
    6. Spectre

    Favourite debuts:

    1. On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    2. The Living Daylights
    3. GoldenEye
    4. Live and Let Die
    5. Casino Royale
    6. Dr. No

    Sean doesn't do so well here, but my favourites of his have always been FRWL and TB.

    For once George and Tim benefit from their short Bond career. They've never made a weak entry, on the contrary.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,127
    @SaintMark this is entirely your appreciation. Craig gets tortured in CR and has to spend time recovering, in SF he is in poor shape and must also recover. As for his emotional vulnerability, he grieves far more and longer than Brosnan ever did.

    Regarding how Brosnan and Craig will be remembered I won't prophecize but I would say it's fair to say Brosnan made Bond cool again with the general public after a long absence and a relatively unpopular tenure, while Craig with both CR and SF (regardless of what one thinks of the movies personally) showed Bond can be both critically acclaimed and financially successful.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    Favourite finales:

    1. On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    2. Licence to Kill
    3. Spectre
    4. A View to a Kill
    5. Die Another Day
    6. Diamonds are Forever



    Favourite debuts:

    1. On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    2. Casino Royale
    3. GoldenEye
    4. Doctor No
    5. Live and Let Die
    6. The Living Daylights
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Why does everyone suddenly think SP is the last Craig film?
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Why does everyone suddenly think SP is the last Craig film?
    Why does everyone think LTK was a good film?
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,139
    NicNac wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Why does everyone suddenly think SP is the last Craig film?
    Why does everyone think LTK was a good film?

    Because it's a masterpiece. B-)
  • GetafixGetafix
    edited January 2017 Posts: 11,425
    SaintMark wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I think it might have been Laz during the Piz Gloria raid.

    And he made it look really cool while sliding over that ice on his belly while firing, nobody ever complained about that.

    As for Craig more Bondian or Flemingesque, he is far more James Cameronesque as he is witout any doubt the only Terminator among the james Bond, getting shot falling of a terminal height of a train and without any background check is back working for MI6. Just like they knew; He'll be back and in SP he got to the Chopper.

    Anything about Brosnan is a complained and generally full of the stuff the grass grows greener of. There can be complains about any performer even if they are generally taste driven and period driven. But I must say that I prefer a Terminator movie over a Graig version because Schwarzenegger is still the original.

    Agree with the complaints about machine guns during the Brosnan era. Also Bond rarely killed innocents in the past. I don't think Bond would take pleasure or pride in wantonly wiping out dozens of hapless Russian soldiers - they are not the target of his mission. They really got that wrong in GE.

    Bond should always escape with minimal carnage IMO. He is not an ISIS operative looking to attract the biggest headlines.

    The Piz Gloria attack was different. It's like a commando raid and looks awesome.

  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited January 2017 Posts: 11,189
    I like the action sequence in GE. I've always found that scene exciting due to its punchy direction...and it was virtually a case of kill or be killed as Oromov had ordered the soldiers to execute him on sight.

    "Defense Minister...Dimitri Miskin...murdered by British agent...James Bond. Himself shot while...trying..to..escape..GUARD". Bond basically had no choice.

    Its the TND finale that irks me and takes things too far. I don't like the way Bond has a gun in each hand as he's running about the ship.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited January 2017 Posts: 7,139
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I like the action sequence in GE. I've always found that scene exciting due to its punchy direction...and it was virtually a case of kill or be killed as Oromov had ordered the soldiers to execute him on sight.

    "Defense Minister...Dimitri Miskin...murdered by British agent...James Bond. Himself shot while...trying..to..escape..GUARD". Bond basically had no choice.

    Its the TND finale that irks me and takes things too far. I don't like the way Bond has a gun in each hand as he's running about the ship.

    I agree, in GE it was kill or be killed. As unfortunate as it is for those poor soldiers simply performing their duty.

    In TND when he is wielding two guns at the same time, it is the most unappealing moment of the machine gun action in Bond. It is the only time when it really bothered me.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    In TND when he is wielding two guns at the same time, it is the most unappealing moment of the machine gun action in Bond. It is the only time when it really bothered me.
    This was the beginning of it, and perhaps the most egregious instance. I have this memory of him almost twirling the gun around as it was firing in one stance but don't know if it was in this film.

    The Kazakhstan ICBM base shootout in TWINE was also a bit OTT.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    And then DAD took OTT to a new level
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    DAD came at a sad time when they were experimenting with CG in action films.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    DAD's style of CGI was used in about all of the action/fantasy movies of that time.

    Just look at how horrible some Harry Potter and Spider-Man scenes are, or that abomination posted above.

    It's not an excuse for what was done in DAD but people here really should start to see the context.
    Back projection was the "CGI" of the old days, used often and sometimes excessive, even in the Connery films. Nobody complains about that here, and they shouldn't, just saying.

    Those 12 seconds of pure CGI in DAD get so much attendance here it's almost grotesque.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I think the DAD criticisms are deserved, because Bond has a rich history of doing things either for real or with realistic models. That's always been what it was known for. It's almost legendary. These films last forever and are rewatched by generations, unlike The Mummy for instance, so greater care must be taken with the effects work.

    I recall people laughing in the theatre in 2002. It was a deeply unpleasant (and embarrassing, for a life-long fan) experience.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think the DAD criticisms are deserved, because Bond has a rich history of doing things either for real or with realistic models. That's always been what it was known for. It's almost legendary. These films last forever and are rewatched by generations, unlike The Mummy for instance, so greater care must be taken with the effects work.

    I agree with you but Bond films did tend to pinch aspects from contemporary films - at least in later entries,
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Yes but they also laughed at all the other intended funny stuff. It was no issue at all, it passed within 10 seconds and was not even ever brought up, at least not where I am.

    The flashlight incident in Skyfall, now that made people laugh and cringe. That was embarrassing for a life-long fan. As did the subway crash scene by the way.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think the DAD criticisms are deserved, because Bond has a rich history of doing things either for real or with realistic models. That's always been what it was known for. It's almost legendary. These films last forever and are rewatched by generations, unlike The Mummy for instance, so greater care must be taken with the effects work.

    I agree with you but Bond films did tend to pinch aspects from contemporary films - at least in later entries,
    True. I'm not just commenting on DAD. I'm not happy with the effects work in SP either (building collapse, helicopter with CGI people running around below, CGI faces imposed on cars etc. etc.). I really think they should lay off this. I would have enjoyed the film just as much without the damn building collapse. It was the Bond theme, Craig ignoring that Mexican babe and strutting coolly across the rooftops that sold the PTS for me. He should have gone back and done what he had to however. Connery, Moore and even Brosnan would have ensured that her needs were attended to.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,978
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    Yes but they also laughed at all the other intended funny stuff. It was no issue at all, it passed within 10 seconds and was not even ever brought up, at least not where I am.

    The flashlight incident in Skyfall, now that made people laugh and cringe. That was embarrassing for a life-long fan. As did the subway crash scene by the way.

    That flashlight bit is just of many idiotic character choices in the movie. The poor CG in DAD may be a product of the times, but it's still tough to endure every time it comes on screen, it's so awful. Like I mentioned the other day, how we got that scene from the same movie that delivers a 100% practical, thrilling surfing stunt during the PTS is astounding.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    @Creasy47

    At least in DAD's case you can close your eyes for 10 seconds and it's gone.

    With SF that would require me to close my eyes and ears for almost all of the Silva scenes.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    The flashlight is annoying but come on, Kincaide was well past his best days, and M was hurt. They may have needed it to avoid falling and hurting themselves. It's plausible, if a little stupid.

    The train carriage scene was very silly, agreed.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    bondjames wrote: »
    The flashlight is annoying but come on, Kincaide was well past his best days, and M was hurt. They may have needed it to avoid falling and hurting themselves. It's plausible, if a little stupid.

    I also never really understood the criticism of this scene.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @BAIN123, agreed. It's Scotland. In the middle of winter. At night. Two older people on rough terrain.

    Using a flashlight never phased me.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,978
    bondjames wrote: »
    The flashlight is annoying but come on, Kincaide was well past his best days, and M was hurt. They may have needed it to avoid falling and hurting themselves. It's plausible, if a little stupid.

    The train carriage scene was very silly, agreed.

    Avoiding a fall was more important than not being spotted by the assassins that have come knocking? I can accept that Kincade was past his days and M was hurt, but if Kincade was so inept at such an old age, he shouldn't have been sniping the intruders with such precision, then, either.

    It's a minor nitpick to me - that moment in and of itself doesn't detract from the film in its entirety whatsoever, but it's all these moments added up take away a lot of enjoyment for me.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    The flashlight is annoying but come on, Kincaide was well past his best days, and M was hurt. They may have needed it to avoid falling and hurting themselves. It's plausible, if a little stupid.

    The train carriage scene was very silly, agreed.

    Avoiding a fall was more important than not being spotted by the assassins that have come knocking? I can accept that Kincade was past his days and M was hurt, but if Kincade was so inept at such an old age, he shouldn't have been sniping the intruders with such precision, then, either.

    It's a minor nitpick to me - that moment in and of itself doesn't detract from the film in its entirety whatsoever, but it's all these moments added up take away a lot of enjoyment for me.

    Well if they fell then they could die anyway. They needed the torch to navigate the area, also Kinkade was supporting M.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    The flashlight is annoying but come on, Kincaide was well past his best days, and M was hurt. They may have needed it to avoid falling and hurting themselves. It's plausible, if a little stupid.

    The train carriage scene was very silly, agreed.

    Avoiding a fall was more important than not being spotted by the assassins that have come knocking? I can accept that Kincade was past his days and M was hurt, but if Kincade was so inept at such an old age, he shouldn't have been sniping the intruders with such precision, then, either.

    It's a minor nitpick to me - that moment in and of itself doesn't detract from the film in its entirety whatsoever, but it's all these moments added up take away a lot of enjoyment for me.
    I'll concede to having a laugh in the theatre when I first encountered this obvious narrative contrivance, and I'm sure I heard a few groans from fellow patrons & enthusiasts as well.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,978
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    The flashlight is annoying but come on, Kincaide was well past his best days, and M was hurt. They may have needed it to avoid falling and hurting themselves. It's plausible, if a little stupid.

    The train carriage scene was very silly, agreed.

    Avoiding a fall was more important than not being spotted by the assassins that have come knocking? I can accept that Kincade was past his days and M was hurt, but if Kincade was so inept at such an old age, he shouldn't have been sniping the intruders with such precision, then, either.

    It's a minor nitpick to me - that moment in and of itself doesn't detract from the film in its entirety whatsoever, but it's all these moments added up take away a lot of enjoyment for me.

    Well if they fell then they could die anyway. They needed the torch to navigate the area, also Kinkade was supporting M.

    Aside from the massive frozen lake/pond, what could they possibly have fallen and died from? It's not like they were near any large cliffs, nor do I believe Kincade didn't know the area well enough to navigate it without a flashlight; he's only lived there for at least a few decades!
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    It was just stupid lazy writing. To move the story forward, not even trying to hide that fact.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I love Bond's reaction when Silva blows up the Aston. That's when he kicks into high gear. Don't mess with my car!
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,978
    bondjames wrote: »
    I love Bond's reaction when Silva blows up the Aston. That's when he kicks into high gear. Don't mess with my car!

    That bit got a good chuckle in the cinemas when I first saw it. If he wasn't too bothered by the helicopter before it destroyed his car, then he's DEFINITELY going to kill everyone onboard now.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    The flashlight is annoying but come on, Kincaide was well past his best days, and M was hurt. They may have needed it to avoid falling and hurting themselves. It's plausible, if a little stupid.

    I also never really understood the criticism of this scene.

    It s because it s a cgi flashlight.
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