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Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • GetafixGetafix
    edited April 2017 Posts: 11,425
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    Craig is in no way better than Brosnan, just different. His era even resembles Brosnan's quite a bit, it's almost unsettling.

    CR>GE
    QOS>TND
    SF>TWINE
    SP>DAD

    by an enormous gap for all four.

    I entirely agree with you but I can still see how if you did a comparison between Brosnan and Craig, as opposed to the genuinely definitive performances, then Brosnan could come out looking slightly less awful than he deserves.

    I.e. A comparison with Craig flatters Brosnan slightly, whereas a comparison with Connery or Moore leaves him looking pretty awful.

    But I do agree with @BondJasonBond006 that there are some similarities between the Craig and Brosnan eras. From my perspective that's a bit depressing. I definitely did not expect the Craig era to end up where it is now. All a bit of an anticlimax IMO. I know SP has plenty of hate on here, but for me SF was the mistep that took the Craig era in the wrong direction. Just don't feel Mendes fully appreciated the opportunity he had.

    A return to standalone movies would be welcome IMO as it makes it much easier to shot tone and direction ans correct 'errors' from the previous film.

    I actually quite enjoyed SP for what it was - certainly more enjoyable than SF from my perspective. The retcon stuff was painful and entirely unnecessary though.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited April 2017 Posts: 11,189
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    Craig is in no way better than Brosnan, just different. His era even resembles Brosnan's quite a bit, it's almost unsettling.

    CR>GE
    QOS>TND
    SF>TWINE
    SP>DAD

    by an enormous gap for all four.

    Even as a GE fan/defender I'd agree with all of these.

    I re-watched CR and QoS a few days ago. I still have my problems with QoS but Craig isn't one of them. I like Brosnan but Dan is easily the better of the two actors. There's just more weight and subtlety to his performances. I just can't see Brosnan in a scene like this:



    I do think though that SP is the closest we've come to a Brosnan-esque Bond film with Craig. It's got more OTT aspects to it. Remember thinking that since I first saw it in the cinema.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Yes, SPECTRE can immediately be recognised as a return to the fun, entertaining, humorous Bond we got for 40 years up to DAD.
    It has many Brosnan moments, even Moore moments. And that is A GOOD THING imho.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,392
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    Yes, SPECTRE can immediately be recognised as a return to the fun, entertaining, humorous Bond we got for 40 years up to DAD.
    It has many Brosnan moments, even Moore moments. And that is A GOOD THING imho.

    Yes! :D
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited April 2017 Posts: 11,189
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    Yes, SPECTRE can immediately be recognised as a return to the fun, entertaining, humorous Bond we got for 40 years up to DAD.
    It has many Brosnan moments, even Moore moments. And that is A GOOD THING imho.

    The problem is its cheesy and gets further into pastiche territory. I'd have agreed with you a few years ago but now, I'm not so sure.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    @BAIN123
    I give you that Spectre is cheesy in some rare moments, which I don't mind as at least half of all Bond film have some or a lot of cheesy moments. It's just part of the series.

    Pastiche, I never understand what this really means.

    A potpurri? I feel that Spectre is very even in tone and style from start to finish.

    Skyfall, now that's a film that changes tone drastically several times. After the PTS to Macau to Silva's appearance to the Skyfall sequence to the last scene. All over the place in tone and style.
    But as I said, I may misinterpret the term pastiche.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Pastiche is basically mimicking the style of something else before you.
  • GetafixGetafix
    edited April 2017 Posts: 11,425
    Pastiche in this context usually implies an unoriginal imitation of a superior original work. It also implies heavy borrowing/copying usually with an inferior end result (although not always).

    TSWLM is arguably good pastiche.

    It depends on perspective to a large extent. To be fair Bond has been cannibalising itself for decades so saying a new Bond film is pastiche is usually stating the obvious. Having said that, there have been attempts periodically to freshen things up and explore new avenues , with varying degrees of success.

  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    @BAIN123 @Getafix
    thanks for explaining, even being bilingual sometimes I lack knowledge of a term or expression.

    Then I agree on pastiche for Spectre. Which for me personally also is not a bad thing because it was done in a great way imho.
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,176
    You say pastiche, I say homage :)
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    I agree that with Bond pastiche is not necessarily a bad thing. But pastiche done badly is very depressing
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2017 Posts: 23,883
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    Yes, SPECTRE can immediately be recognised as a return to the fun, entertaining, humorous Bond we got for 40 years up to DAD.
    It has many Brosnan moments, even Moore moments. And that is A GOOD THING imho.
    And how I wish it was Brosnan in it, because I think he could have pulled it off better.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    bondjames wrote: »
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    Yes, SPECTRE can immediately be recognised as a return to the fun, entertaining, humorous Bond we got for 40 years up to DAD.
    It has many Brosnan moments, even Moore moments. And that is A GOOD THING imho.
    And how I wish it was Brosnan in it, because I think he could have pulled it off better.

    I hate to agree on that (not because it's you of course) but because I love Craig's performance in SPECTRE.
    Still having seen the Brosnan trailer for Spectre I really wanted to see that alternate reality Spectre. I still do.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Pastiche is basically mimicking the style of something else before you.

    Unlike parody, pastiche celebrates, rather than mocks, the work it imitates. Basically Die Another Day.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    This website has made me despise the word pastiche. It sounds so annoying and pretentious.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Every term is welcome here just to put down SPECTRE into the muddy ground once more. Quite deplorable.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    Murdock wrote: »
    This website has made me despise the word pastiche. It sounds so annoying and pretentious.

    Fair comment
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Dalton described the films as "pastiches" in the Everything or Nothing documentary.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I know, and his delivery of the word was over enunciated. Haha.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Murdock wrote: »
    I know, and his delivery of the word was over enunciated. Haha.

    "What makes these movies wuuurk. WHAT IS IT that got them goooinng"?

    He does seem quite animated in that clip.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    Pastiche in this context usually implies an unoriginal imitation of a superior original work. It also implies heavy borrowing/copying usually with an inferior end result (although not always).

    TSWLM is arguably good pastiche.

    It depends on perspective to a large extent. To be fair Bond has been cannibalising itself for decades so saying a new Bond film is pastiche is usually stating the obvious. Having said that, there have been attempts periodically to freshen things up and explore new avenues , with varying degrees of success.
    I don't have a problem with pastiche, if it's done well. As you note, TSWLM is an example of excellent pastiche, as is GE imho. The trick is not to make it too obvious. Ensure that what you're celebrating is incorporated organically into the film. TND is too obvious, as an example.

    I believe the last two MI films have done excellent pastiche of Bond. Far better than Bond itself has been doing.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    The last MI film was very good. Probably the best of the lot
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    M:I is M:I, but you can't replicate British class.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    Bond has often been anything but classy
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Getafix wrote: »
    Bond has often been anything but classy

    Even at its lowest ebb nothing comes close in terms of class.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    The last MI film was very good. Probably the best of the lot
    I thought so. They are going from strength to strength and I hope they can keep the quality level up for the next outing, and continue with the Bond pastiche. Since they made the decision to go in that direction, Cruise has nailed it in his inimitable way. Looks damn good in a dinner jacket as well.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    I have never been a particular fan of MI or Cruise but enjoyed the most recent instalment - it was a cut above the usual
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Rogue Nation was my favorite since the original.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    Rogue Nation was my favorite since the original.
    I'm inclined to agree, but I really liked MI-GP as well. These have a TSWLM/GE feel to them imho, which is why I think of them as supremely well crafted Bond pastiche. Not too much stress or angst. Just fine entertainment with great rewatchability factor.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    If GE had featured Dalton then MAYBE I'd have agreed with your last comment
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