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Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    He does a few chops and a swinging kick that's for sure,so I wouldn't be too hasty to say its all an 'obvious stuntman'.

    "Hope you enjoyed the show....goodnight."
  • CraterGunsCraterGuns
    Posts: 618
    If you have TSWLM on Blu-ray, and a large hi-def TV, it's pretty obvious that, apart from shots of Moore "squaring off" against his opponents, its almost all stunt man replacement.

    (BTW... The film is in my personal Top 10 Bond Films list, regardless.)
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    CraterGuns wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Dalton's fights were weakest, by far. Even that much beloved (not by me) cargo net fight. Actually watch the fight itself...lame. At least Roger gave us a couple of decent ones early on (Tee Hee, Saida's dressing room, pyramids).
    Pyramids? There's actually not much of Sir Roger in that fight scene... The obvious stunt man does virtually EVERYTHING.

    To be fair to TSWLM, that could be said of Moore's other Bonds, especially FYEO, OP & AVTAK, where it was getting to the stage where the stunt man should have got top billing as Bond.
  • ToTheRightToTheRight
    Posts: 16,169
    bondjames wrote: »
    CraterGuns wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Dalton's fights were weakest, by far. Even that much beloved (not by me) cargo net fight. Actually watch the fight itself...lame. At least Roger gave us a couple of decent ones early on (Tee Hee, Saida's dressing room, pyramids).
    Pyramids? There's actually not much of Sir Roger in that fight scene... The obvious stunt man does virtually EVERYTHING.
    If that's the case it was pretty convincing to me. I've always liked the way they filmed that fight. It has atmosphere, pace and movement. I'm pretty sure I saw Sir Rog throw out a few chops and kicks at the very least and that's more than good enough for me.

    There's a few shots in which it's I believe Martin Grace, but enough of Roger for it to work for me.
    I've always liked Roger's fight sequences. TMWTGG dressing room is straight out of a typical SAINT episode, except, Simon Templar's pompadour usually gets messed.
    Considering much of the time the fights are meant to be humorous, I don't fault Roger for never having a stairwell intense equivalent.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2018 Posts: 23,883
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    CraterGuns wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Dalton's fights were weakest, by far. Even that much beloved (not by me) cargo net fight. Actually watch the fight itself...lame. At least Roger gave us a couple of decent ones early on (Tee Hee, Saida's dressing room, pyramids).
    Pyramids? There's actually not much of Sir Roger in that fight scene... The obvious stunt man does virtually EVERYTHING.
    If that's the case it was pretty convincing to me. I've always liked the way they filmed that fight. It has atmosphere, pace and movement. I'm pretty sure I saw Sir Rog throw out a few chops and kicks at the very least and that's more than good enough for me.

    There's a few shots in which it's I believe Martin Grace, but enough of Roger for it to work for me.
    I've always liked Roger's fight sequences. TMWTGG dressing room is straight out of a typical SAINT episode, except, Simon Templar's pompadour usually gets messed.
    Considering much of the time the fights are meant to be humorous, I don't fault Roger for never having a stairwell intense equivalent.
    Me neither. I've enjoyed all of his fights except for those in AVTAK. The TMWTGG encounter at Saida's is a particular favourite of mine (although I always crack up at that one shot where the camera holds on him bent over waiting for the thug to approach him - it seems to go on forever!). The bloodied lip was a nice touch.

    I viewed OP the other night and that fight at Octopussy's residence is particularly convincing imho.
    CraterGuns wrote: »
    If you have TSWLM on Blu-ray, and a large hi-def TV, it's pretty obvious that, apart from shots of Moore "squaring off" against his opponents, its almost all stunt man replacement.
    I'll look for it the next time I see the film.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    I don't have Blue-ray.
  • ToTheRightToTheRight
    edited February 2018 Posts: 16,169
    @bondjames , I think the one thing that works in favor of the AVTAK fisticuffs is that both the warehouse fight and the scene at Stacey's mansion are played for laughs. The audience laughed loudly in both scenes as I recall. That said both scenes seem to have been done in haste. With a little better choreography they might stand out more.
    I love the fight with Kamal's thugs in Octopussy's palace. One of my favorite Roger-isms (apart from his nod) is he holds his opponent by the back of the head with one hand as he swings with the other. He did that on THE SAINT a lot.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    To be fair I didn't really mind the fight at Stacey's @ToTheRight. I know it's not Rog doing that somersault up at the stairs but it sure looked like him due to the edit. True, the urn joke added some levity to it.

    I know the move you're referring to well. A Rog special.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I don't have Blue-ray.

    Get it.
  • barryt007barryt007
    edited February 2018 Posts: 19,339
    I answered re Roger Moore's fights in the 'Roger Moore Fisticuffs' thread,so we don't de-rail this one !!
    Remington wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I don't have Blue-ray.

    Get it.

    Is it really that much better ?
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,124
    bondjames wrote: »
    CraterGuns wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Dalton's fights were weakest, by far. Even that much beloved (not by me) cargo net fight. Actually watch the fight itself...lame. At least Roger gave us a couple of decent ones early on (Tee Hee, Saida's dressing room, pyramids).
    Pyramids? There's actually not much of Sir Roger in that fight scene... The obvious stunt man does virtually EVERYTHING.
    If that's the case it was pretty convincing to me. I've always liked the way they filmed that fight. It has atmosphere, pace and movement. I'm pretty sure I saw Sir Rog throw out a few chops and kicks at the very least and that's more than good enough for me.

    Whether it was a stuntman or Moore is moot at this point: it's a Moore Bond fight and this Bond is depicted as a capable fighter..They could have used Ray Harryhausen's clay model for all I care.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I answered re Roger Moore's fights in the 'Roger Moore Fisticuffs' thread,so we don't de-rail this one !!
    Remington wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I don't have Blue-ray.

    Get it.

    Is it really that much better ?

    Mainly for the older films. DN, TB, YOLT, OHMSS etc all look breathtaking. The only film that could've looked better is GE.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    Remington wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I answered re Roger Moore's fights in the 'Roger Moore Fisticuffs' thread,so we don't de-rail this one !!
    Remington wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I don't have Blue-ray.

    Get it.

    Is it really that much better ?

    Mainly for the older films. DN, TB, YOLT, OHMSS etc all look breathtaking. The only film that could've looked better is GE.

    How much are the discs now though ?

  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    Ludovico wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I'd also say that it's the most Bond-centrist Bond movie. Everyone orbits around him.

    There are long swaths without Bond, though. Severnaya, for one.

    I'd say the most Bond-centric movie is OHMSS. I think they only cut away from Bond a few times.

    But even OHMSS does not celebrate the icon Bond as much or has every other character seemingly so obsessed with him. In GE even a Russian mobster has a history with him!

    GE is in my bottom Three bond movies. I’d rather watch DAD.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    edited March 2018 Posts: 12,473
    Birdleson wrote: »
    There are a couple of different versions, but this one is going cheap now, and I think it contains all 24 films.

    https://www.amazon.com/James-Collection-Blu-ray-Monica-Bellucci/dp/B01IQJ3LOI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1521411083&sr=8-2&keywords=Bond+blu-ray+boxed

    I have that set, and I’m very happy with it. Simple but perfect whenever I want to just wath any of the Bond films.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    would like to see the difference it makes
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    GE is perfect as it is..
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    barryt007 wrote: »
    GE is perfect as it is..
    Hear hear.
  • barryt007barryt007
    edited May 2018 Posts: 19,339
    compare TLD income to GE and then say it would be better,without even comparing one film to the other.

    This argument should be put to bed,along with Dalton and his androids (and his TLD android Kara).
  • barryt007barryt007
    edited May 2018 Posts: 19,339
    Birdleson wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    GE is perfect as it is..

    The quips and innuendos (along with some odd musical choices) are what hold it back from the upper echelon for me. Still a solid 9-12 placement, depending on the viewing.

    Nah...the comment 'the things we do for frequent flier mileage ' creases me up every time...inspired.

    After 6 years and 2 Dalton flicks to hear that with that delivery was brilliant.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    GE is perfect as it is..

    The quips and innuendos (along with some odd musical choices) are what hold it back from the upper echelon for me. Still a solid 9-12 placement, depending on the viewing.

    Nah...the comment 'the things we do for frequent flier mileage ' creases me up every time...inspired.

    After 6 years and 2 Dalton flicks to hear that with that delivery was brilliant.
    I agree. It was the perfect film for its time. I'm so glad whoever got involved to make it happen the way it did succeeded. There are many stories out there, but if UA intervened, they have my eternal gratitude.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    GE is perfect as it is..

    The quips and innuendos (along with some odd musical choices) are what hold it back from the upper echelon for me. Still a solid 9-12 placement, depending on the viewing.

    Nah...the comment 'the things we do for frequent flier mileage ' creases me up every time...inspired.

    After 6 years and 2 Dalton flicks to hear that with that delivery was brilliant.
    I agree. It was the perfect film for its time. I'm so glad whoever got involved to make it happen the way it did succeeded. There are many stories out there, but if UA intervened, they have my eternal gratitude.

    I think we all need UA's battle for traditional Bond ,it had to work and boy did it work God bless it.
    People who dont like GE as Bond fans puzzle me but each to their own.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    barryt007 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    GE is perfect as it is..

    The quips and innuendos (along with some odd musical choices) are what hold it back from the upper echelon for me. Still a solid 9-12 placement, depending on the viewing.

    Nah...the comment 'the things we do for frequent flier mileage ' creases me up every time...inspired.

    After 6 years and 2 Dalton flicks to hear that with that delivery was brilliant.
    I agree. It was the perfect film for its time. I'm so glad whoever got involved to make it happen the way it did succeeded. There are many stories out there, but if UA intervened, they have my eternal gratitude.
    I think we all need UA's battle for traditional Bond ,it had to work and boy did it work God bless it.
    People who dont like GE as Bond fans puzzle me but each to their own.
    +1. Once again, you couldn't be more on point, Bazza!
  • RevelatorRevelator
    edited May 2018 Posts: 2,918
    Birdleson wrote: »
    The quips and innuendos (along with some odd musical choices) are what hold it back from the upper echelon for me. Still a solid 9-12 placement, depending on the viewing.

    It's well directed and cast but seriously schizoid. The film's characters constantly knock and belittle Bond, but the rest of the film plays like a calculated Bond pastiche that's desperate to combine the Connery and Moore eras and drape the result in generic 90s action film clothing. It's very much a Bond film for the 90s--postmodern, slick, and soulless. Hard to imagine Dalton in it.
  • Tuck91Tuck91
    Posts: 1,680
    I may be bias since goldeneye was my first bond viewing experience, but I see it as the best or second best bond film. It's the only bond film that plays the dramatic personal angle while also having an Actual plot imo.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    I love Dalton but GE belongs to Brosnan. End of story.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    Revelator wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    The quips and innuendos (along with some odd musical choices) are what hold it back from the upper echelon for me. Still a solid 9-12 placement, depending on the viewing.

    It's well directed and cast but seriously schizoid. The film's characters constantly knock and belittle Bond, but the rest of the film plays like a calculated Bond pastiche that's desperate to combine the Connery and Moore eras and drape the result in generic 90s action film clothing. It's very much a Bond film for the 90s--postmodern, slick, and soulless. Hard to imagine Dalton in it.

    Agree. soulless.

    and the Bond character is almost unrecognizable. which previous iteration of Bond would have worn a cravatte? he's not bleedin' Terry Thomas in some 60s farce.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Revelator wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    The quips and innuendos (along with some odd musical choices) are what hold it back from the upper echelon for me. Still a solid 9-12 placement, depending on the viewing.

    It's well directed and cast but seriously schizoid. The film's characters constantly knock and belittle Bond, but the rest of the film plays like a calculated Bond pastiche that's desperate to combine the Connery and Moore eras and drape the result in generic 90s action film clothing. It's very much a Bond film for the 90s--postmodern, slick, and soulless. Hard to imagine Dalton in it.
    You've pretty much summed up the whole era. Somehow, it all seems to work for me in GE though. The cast and direction were key to elevating it as you said, and that's something that wasn't done nearly as well in the remaining three Brosnan outings, which I'm not too keen on as a result.

    If I may add, I thought that it had a certain contemporary freshness & energy in 1995 when compared to the 80s films, while still retaining sprinklings of essential Bond DNA (the remnants of the Cold War angle certainly helped, and that was something which disappeared after this film).

    Looking back on it now, it's definitely a transition film, incorporating elements of old and new.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    a transition from excellence to mediocrity
  • Escalus5Escalus5
    edited May 2018 Posts: 628
    GE seems like it went through a focus group of people who never saw a Bond movie but read about the series in a magazine. The difference between GE and LTK -- which goes for the throat regardless of audience expectations -- is startling.

    But it did make a sh*tload of money, so what do I know.
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