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Come on, guys! TND isn't all THAT bad.

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  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,124
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    TheBondFan wrote:
    Tomorrow Never Dies discussion. Positive and Negative comments are appreciated.
    TND is my favorite film in the series. I do not really know why, it just is. Probably the mix of gadgets and a good Bond along with a nice story. TMWTGG is a close second.

    As a kid I loved the film. It had the real James Bond music. It had one hell of a parking garage car chase. It had an older Blofeld-esque villain.

    That is one thing TND did right I think: an older, seasoned villain. Not the perfectly written villain, but the casting was inspired.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    PB Bonds mediocre or not ...and I liked every other one starting with TND... I didn't like GE needed to be by the numbers but flashy to recharge the series. Experimental DC would not have saved the series then. Granted I wish PB would've gotten a higher standard film like he wanted but these were overall fun films...series saving films that made Bond cool again after the embarrassing Dalton crap..

    TND is such a straightforward Bond film really hard to believe there is so hate for it.. :(


  • ThighsOfXeniaThighsOfXenia
    Posts: 1,596
    I love Carver. one of the series' most underrated villains in my opinion.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Paris carver is no Natalyia but I do think she gets an overly critical and unfair rap amongst fans: plus she has one if the best love scenes in the series! Aided by Arnold's brilliant music.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    TheBondFan wrote:
    Tomorrow Never Dies discussion. Positive and Negative comments are appreciated.
    TND is my favorite film in the series. I do not really know why, it just is. Probably the mix of gadgets and a good Bond along with a nice story. TMWTGG is a close second.

    As a kid I loved the film. It had the real James Bond music. It had one hell of a parking garage car chase. It had an older Blofeld-esque villain.

    That is one thing TND did right I think: an older, seasoned villain. Not the perfectly written villain, but the casting was inspired.

    Yes, but if a Bond film is only a calculation of typical Bond elements, than eventually it goes wrong.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Pam is Pussy Galore in comparison to those two.

    No wonder I never liked Pam. I hate Pussy Galore more than Jinx.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    ThighsOfXenia wrote: »
    I love Carver. one of the series' most underrated villains in my opinion.
    Agreed.
  • andmcitandmcit
    Posts: 1,068
    Quite interesting / brave going for a 'when Steve Jobs goes bad' character manipulating the world rather than just simply wanting to 'rule the world' as per the usual megalomaniac.

    I feel Carver could have been allowed to be even better as a flawed genius but then would've easily done a Sheriff of Nottingham to Kostner's Robbin Hood for Brosnan
  • andmcitandmcit
    Posts: 1,068
    Totally agree @Birdleson - an opportunity for a real stand out character in the series not being realised when the alter ego, all muscles no brain rent a thug Stamper was the action foil for him anyway.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Birdleson wrote: »
    the decision had been made to Ramboize the second half of the picture. Trading in any real tension between Bond and Carver, and character development, in for non-stop gunfire and meaningless explosions.
    What? You mean like in YOLT? Heh, I love that one too.
    B-)
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I love Brosnan coldly finishes him off like he's had enough. He's let Carver see him bleed and he's just plain tired at this point. Give the people what they want!!!
    wodumedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Pierce-Brosnan-as-James-Bond-in-United-Artists-actionadventure-movie-Tomorrow-Never-Dies-6-650x366.jpg
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    A fitting end to a high end terrorist.
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    Agreed, @Murdock. In fact, I love how determined Bond is throughout Tomorrow's finale. Like you say, it's as if he's simply fed up, the way he simply machine-guns down Carver's staff through that sheet of glass as if he's clearing cobwebs.

    I also love when Bond winds up battered, exhausted, and bloody after the finale: Dr. No, Licence to Kill, GoldenEye, Tomorrow Never Dies, Quantum of Solace. I wouldn't mind if they went even further with this. Of course, he doesn't need to wind up John McClane bloody, but in all seriousness, John McClane actually comes closer to looking like where Fleming would leave James at the end of each of his adventures.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    TND is one of my favorites and does rank a good deal higher than YOLT, although there are some things I enjoy about YOLT ... mainly the gorgeous music.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    edited September 2014 Posts: 7,854
    I fail to see how YOLT is more personal. In both films, Bond loses some whom he cares about, introduced in that film. He assaults the villain's lair, meaning to stop the villain from causing a third world war. The biggest difference is that Blofeld gets away and Carver doesn't. Oh, and Bond gets an Asian in both films.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    YOLT is one ot my favourotes. Miles better than TND. But TND is still probably Brosnan's best.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    Agreed, @Murdock. In fact, I love how determined Bond is throughout Tomorrow's finale. Like you say, it's as if he's simply fed up, the way he simply machine-guns down Carver's staff through that sheet of glass as if he's clearing cobwebs.

    I also love when Bond winds up battered, exhausted, and bloody after the finale: Dr. No, Licence to Kill, GoldenEye, Tomorrow Never Dies, Quantum of Solace. I wouldn't mind if they went even further with this. Of course, he doesn't need to wind up John McClane bloody, but in all seriousness, John McClane actually comes closer to looking like where Fleming would leave James at the end of each of his adventures.
    Totally agree.. and what's wrong with mindless action??? It was a battle scene.. slay the dragon stuff.. characters developed enough by then... just kiss kiss bang bang :D
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    there is nothing wrong with action at all, but mindless action does not belong in a Bond movie.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    What exactly is your definition of mindless action? They needed to get the ship to show up on radar, thus they blew up part of the ship. The henchmen got overzealous, as henchmen do in all Bond films. I seem to remember an awful lot of grenades being throw in TSWLM. Plenty of shooting happened in the Fort Knox sequence in GF. Freakin' attack chopper in SF.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    I wan't specifically criticising TND (which I think starts off well), but rather just saying that mindless action is boring. I like action that drives the narrative or serves some purpose. Action should help define the characters. So the way in which Bond acts is a reflection of who/what he is and what makes him different. This is one of the things that has defined Bond at his best over the years. Bond does not react/act in the same way as other generic action movie characters. He should show intelligence, wit and sometimes restraint. He doesn't just blow everything up for the hell of it. Sometimes he does, if it's unavoidable to achieve his ends, but certainly in the build up the final confrontation, it's satisfying to see Bond going slowly and methodically about his job of closing in on the lead villain. Generally speaking that means no machines guns, bazookas, RPGs etc. Bond's actions are generally precise, targeted and with a specific goal in mind.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,582
    TND was my first cinematic Bond experience, and I remember thoroughly enjoying it on both viewings. So maybe I am forever bias towards it, but I really do love it as much as I did then. The only real niggle I have is the sudden change of pace once they hit Ha Long bay. Other than that, it's got quite a lot going for it- an explosive PTS that always leaves me grinning like a clown, a kickass babe in Michelle Yeoh, a larger-than-life villain inspired by characters in the real world, incredible stunts with the heli jump/HALO jump, a very Flemingesque scene many tend to overlook with Bond pouring shots of vodka in his braces after a good punch-up, a unique henchman (Kaufman, not Stamper- although I do like him too), and not to mention awesome gadgets that us prop makers would have trouble making working replicas of. For me, TND sits just behind GE as Brozza's second best- a solid follow up, coasting in GE's slipstream, if you will- and as others have previously stated, a considerable step up, performance-wise. It must be time to watch this one again, I think.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    Of all Brosnan's films, TND is the one I have time for. He is better and the overall plot, production design and casting is more to my tastes. A decent, if not particularly inspired, movie. I agree Brosnan is better in TND than GE - just a shame his performances lost the plot again in TWINE and DAD.

    Never understood the love for GE - awful film.
  • ThighsOfXeniaThighsOfXenia
    edited September 2014 Posts: 1,596
    "awful film." You say that as if you aren't in the overwhelming minority.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Getafix wrote: »
    I wan't specifically criticising TND (which I think starts off well), but rather just saying that mindless action is boring. I like action that drives the narrative or serves some purpose. Action should help define the characters. So the way in which Bond acts is a reflection of who/what he is and what makes him different. This is one of the things that has defined Bond at his best over the years. Bond does not react/act in the same way as other generic action movie characters. He should show intelligence, wit and sometimes restraint. He doesn't just blow everything up for the hell of it. Sometimes he does, if it's unavoidable to achieve his ends, but certainly in the build up the final confrontation, it's satisfying to see Bond going slowly and methodically about his job of closing in on the lead villain. Generally speaking that means no machines guns, bazookas, RPGs etc. Bond's actions are generally precise, targeted and with a specific goal in mind.


    He creates chaos amongst Carver's men. The "mindless" action doesn't really even begin until after Carver's men get involved and start shooting. Bond, then, creates confusion by splitting up from Wai Lin, thereby creating two targets (Wai Lin, on the other hand, just goes around shooting), he attaches a silencer to his handgun, and, once again, needs to do something to make the ship visible to radar. The more explosions, the easier it is for the other guys to find, the faster the villain's goal is stopped, how isn't this intelligent?
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I think with TND I'm definitely somewhere in between. On its own there's parts I genuinely enjoy. It's glossy, slick and has a few good action scenes...and Geoffrey Palmer is always good.

    BUT I think GE is better overall. Better ratio of action and drama. Of all the Bond films GE has by far been the one I've watched the most, no question. I enjoy it and always have.
  • GetafixGetafix
    edited September 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Agent007391 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I wan't specifically criticising TND (which I think starts off well), but rather just saying that mindless action is boring. I like action that drives the narrative or serves some purpose. Action should help define the characters. So the way in which Bond acts is a reflection of who/what he is and what makes him different. This is one of the things that has defined Bond at his best over the years. Bond does not react/act in the same way as other generic action movie characters. He should show intelligence, wit and sometimes restraint. He doesn't just blow everything up for the hell of it. Sometimes he does, if it's unavoidable to achieve his ends, but certainly in the build up the final confrontation, it's satisfying to see Bond going slowly and methodically about his job of closing in on the lead villain. Generally speaking that means no machines guns, bazookas, RPGs etc. Bond's actions are generally precise, targeted and with a specific goal in mind.


    He creates chaos amongst Carver's men. The "mindless" action doesn't really even begin until after Carver's men get involved and start shooting. Bond, then, creates confusion by splitting up from Wai Lin, thereby creating two targets (Wai Lin, on the other hand, just goes around shooting), he attaches a silencer to his handgun, and, once again, needs to do something to make the ship visible to radar. The more explosions, the easier it is for the other guys to find, the faster the villain's goal is stopped, how isn't this intelligent?

    Haven't watched it in ages, but as I said above, I wan't specifically criticising TND. Having said that, I seem to remember that the action becomes a bit generic and dull towards the end. But the film starts of pretty strongly and I like the basic premise. I think Pryce is okay in it as well. And although not a fan of the Bond girl as Bond's equal approach, I think Wai Lin works in the context of the film.
  • fromswedenwithlovefromswedenwithlove
    edited September 2014 Posts: 654
    It is'nt boring, but it's just so casual. It's pretty good, but no more than that. Calvin Dyson's review of the movie is pretty muh spot on if you ask me, but then @birdlesson you are of course right. :)>- I feel that TND and OP are very similar, just because OP also is very casual but that is not always a bad thing. I like them both for what they are. Nothing more, nothing less, only Bond.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I'd definitely say both OP and TND are "lighter" films overall but I'm in no doubt which of the two is classier.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I'd definitely say both OP and TND are "lighter" films overall but I'm in no doubt which of the two is classier.

    Which one?

    Personally, I much prefer OP. One of my favourite Bond movies.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Same here. It's not quite a favourite but it's an entertaining film that's easy to watch on a quiet day.
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