The Film Debate Thread - #5: 'Zodiac'

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  • edited June 2012 Posts: 7,653
    I actually stand corrected when it comes to the CGI because:

    For dream sequences in Inception, Nolan used little computer-generated imagery, preferring practical effects whenever possible. Nolan said, "It's always very important to me to do as much as possible in-camera, and then, if necessary, computer graphics are very useful to build on or enhance what you have achieved physically." To this end, visual effects supervisor Paul Franklin built a miniature of the mountain fortress set and then blew it up for the film. For the fight scene that takes place in zero gravity, he used CG-based effects to "subtly bend elements like physics, space and time."

    The most challenging effect was the "limbo" city level at the end of the film because it continually developed during production. Franklin had artists build concepts while Nolan gave his ideal vision: "Something glacial, with clear modernist architecture, but with chunks of it breaking off into the sea like icebergs". Franklin and his team ended up with "something that looked like an iceberg version of Gotham City with water running through it." They created a basic model of a glacier and then designers created a program that added elements like roads, intersections and ravines until they had a complex, yet organic-looking, cityscape. For the Paris-folding sequence, Franklin had artists producing concept sketches and then they created rough computer animations to give them an idea of what the sequence looked like while in motion. Later during principal photography, Nolan was able to direct Leonardo DiCaprio and Ellen Page based on this rough computer animation Franklin had created. Inception had close to 500 visual effects shots (in comparison, Batman Begins had approximately 620) which is considered minor in comparison to contemporary visual effects epics that can have around 1,500 or 2,000 special effects images.


    I guess it is the unrealistic feeling the director tries to create is what it makes look CGI. Kudos for him trying to do the real thing and putting the appr. 160.000.000 on the screen. It is this general feel of artificialness that puts me of. But each his own.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited June 2012 Posts: 40,976
    Thanks, @NicNac, my apologies for that. Not sure why I put it anywhere else.

    In terms of CGI, Nolan did some really excellent work on the film.

    Well, it appears that we all manage to agree on the thought that Cobb is in reality at the end of the movie, so I'll be picking a new film soon.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    For me there is just too much doubt in Cobb to even believe him at any part of the film. He has let Mal in, used her totem, and does everything he warns his colleagues about doing.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Exactly - Cobb is incredibly hypocritical throughout the entirety of the film, especially when he lets Ariadne know that he can't know the layout of her world she creates, and then asks about the secret passage when they're deep in towards the finale of the film, which ends up letting Mal in to shoot Fischer.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited June 2012 Posts: 40,976
    Well, since it appears that the majority of us agreed that 'Inception' ends with Cobb in reality - which is a good thing - I'll move on to a second film, which is an excellent cult classic that I can never tire of watching:

    2.) The Thing (1982)

    So, the ending: who is who? Is Childs or Macready a Thing? If so, how and when? Could Childs be considered a human, based on the test given in the prequel to the film, 2011's 'The Thing'? Was Macready ever infected? Are the final words they exchange deeply sinister (such as Macready handing Childs the bottle, then laughing after he drinks it), or do you think the men just honestly don't care what happens? Do you leave the ending as interesting and ambiguous, or have you created your own off of the explanation given by the video game, or the plot idea given by Carpenter back in the 80's? What was Nauls' fate?

    Do you have any questions about the film? I may be able to answer them, I've seen it countless times and constantly read up on it. Debate away.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,186
    I believe that certain obscure video games and comic books actually tried to "explain" the position of our survivors. Based solely on the film though, I would suggest the two of them are perfectly human. For those who might wonder, the short story on which this film is based, Who Goes There by J. Cambell, doesn't end in quite the same manner and thus offers no answers in this respect.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    @DarthDimi, funny you should mention that, because I was scouring bookstores for it yesterday, but couldn't find it. The premise of the book sounded really good to me, I just don't like how it is a short story. I think a longer, drawn out version of it would be great to read.

    Have you seen the prequel? Would you think it's safe to definitely say that Childs isn't a Thing, because of the earring he is wearing in the last few seconds of the film?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited June 2012 Posts: 24,186
    Creasy47 wrote:
    @DarthDimi, funny you should mention that, because I was scouring bookstores for it yesterday, but couldn't find it. The premise of the book sounded really good to me, I just don't like how it is a short story. I think a longer, drawn out version of it would be great to read.

    Have you seen the prequel? Would you think it's safe to definitely say that Childs isn't a Thing, because of the earring he is wearing in the last few seconds of the film?

    I certainly like the stuff they introduced in the prequel. TBH, I love this prequel. It was made by people who clearly respect the Carpenter film and who wouldn't dare to alter details or pretend it doesn't exist. It brought the same vibes, adding new ones, without alienating us from the original. I really thing it's a competently made film with some surprising bits and for sure it meticulously reproduced certain settings and even moments from the Carpenter film. I give the film HUGE props for that.

    The ear ring bit is a good call but to be fair, it wasn't on their mind when they made the Carpenter film. Applying this logic to the '82 film (not 84!) now feels a bit like a creative retcon. What do you reckon?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    @DarthDimi, ahh, my apologies! I'm not sure what stuck in my brain that it was 1984, but thank you for that. I'll fix it immediately.

    Yeah, I'm sure it wasn't on their mind at the time, and I, too, loved the prequel - it did have some surprising bits, and while I wasn't really crazy about all of the CGI, some of the Thing manifestations looked very, very cool. But, I wonder, when the prequel decided to make it's own 'Who is human and who is a Thing?' test, did they go off of the fact that Childs had an earring on in the end of the original, and they wanted to spark more debate for both films? Or did they just randomly come up with the 'metals in/on your body' theory. Either way, it was very good. I haven't seen it since it was in theaters, so I'll have to give it a watch soon.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited October 2012 Posts: 28,694
    We need this bumped @Creasy47! I think Se7en would be a great next choice, as it leaves much to be desired and ends with many questions being asked.
  • edited October 2012 Posts: 553
    Blade Runner and Prometheus would be other good choices for debate.

    Edit: and The Usual Suspects
  • edited October 2012 Posts: 12,837
    I have a suggestion:

    Alien or Aliens? Which was the better film?

    EDIT: Ok it's only endings. How about Total Recall? Was it all real or was he really still in Recall?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Wow, nice to see this bumped and noticed. I, personally, thought this would have been a great thread if it received more interest. All of those are great choices, and @thelivingroyale, since there hasn't been much to go off of lately, we can just keep this thread to any type of debate I post up, which I will try to derive from the films and questions you all give to me.

    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, that's a great choice. What questions would you like me to post about to focus on?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Creasy47 wrote:
    Wow, nice to see this bumped and noticed. I, personally, thought this would have been a great thread if it received more interest. All of those are great choices, and @thelivingroyale, since there hasn't been much to go off of lately, we can just keep this thread to any type of debate I post up, which I will try to derive from the films and questions you all give to me.

    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, that's a great choice. What questions would you like me to post about to focus on?

    The stuff I wonder still after the credits are:
    *Will Somerset retire still?
    *What happens to Mills?
    *Will Mills ever recover?
    *What is the meaning of Somerset's last quote?

    Stuff like that.
  • Creasy47 wrote:
    @thelivingroyale, since there hasn't been much to go off of lately, we can just keep this thread to any type of debate I post up, which I will try to derive from the films and questions you all give to me.

    Well then I renominate my Alien/Aliens debate.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I like that. We'll go with 'Seven' for now, see how the thread continues, and then you can give me some broad ideas for what you'd like to discuss with 'Alien/Aliens,' @thelivingroyale.
    So, 'Seven': what happens to Mills? In one of those risky, incredibly unbelievable endings that is best seen for the first time when you've no idea what is coming, Mills is left with a choice: kill John Doe or let him live, but what has happened to Tracy has happened, so whatever he does won't change it. He decides to empty his magazine into John, and is taken away shortly thereafter: what happens to him? Does he ever recover? Does he ever get out of jail?

    I know I've stated a few times that this thread will contain spoilers, but I'll still use spoiler tags for the time being.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited October 2012 Posts: 28,694
    This film is one of my favorites (I love the noir aspects of it). The acting is superb, and John keeps the mystery about him until the end, when he is still in control while in death. I know there have been several endings, and one where Somerset himself kills John. The whole Envy/Wrath ending confused me at first, but I have grown to like it. When you have a serial killer, you would almost thing he wouldn't care for any human being, but he truly wishes he had Mills's life. I wish we would know more about what happened when John went to see Tracy, because I feel the film goes too fast off to the finish. There is some interesting juxtaposition of Somerset trying to tell Mills to drop the gun, and his attempts to stop David from killing John are intense. Brad does a brilliant job playing a completely broken man, saying "what's in the box", and asking Somerset to tell him John is lying are heart wrenching. We loved Tracy. She was a wonderful woman who had care in her heart, and when she opens up to Somerset at the diner, we feel for her and him for going through the same struggles. Now, when we find out Tracy's fate, we are downtrodden, and then obliterated when Mills gives in through the tears. As Mills is taken away, he seems broken, empty by what has happened, by what he has done. In Somerset's words to the cop at the end, we find some interesting possibilities. Maybe Somerset won't retire, but even if he does I think he will be there to help Mills with whatever he needs. His final quote has been a mystery to me really, because he could mean anything when he quotes Hemingway: "The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." Somerset knows the dangers of the world, so he can't believe the former part to be true, but maybe the latter tells us that stopping men like John from causing havoc was worth fighting against?

    I am still left with some questions that I can't wait to discuss. Though Mills wanted revenge, in killing John did he also want to ensure that nothing like this happened to anyone else? That a bullet through John's head was justice enough? And what about the underlying theme of the film? What is it trying to tell us, really? That all men sin, from good men like Mills to sadistic killers like John? That sometimes to stop sinners we must sin ourselves?

    Those are my thoughts for now.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    That's what was, as disgusting as it may seem, interesting about John Doe: he proved that even the most hardened of good men, such as Mills, can sin and be seen as evil as a serial killer. I personally felt that, by executing Doe, he did it for what happened to Tracy. I didn't feel like he thought of anything but taking his life as quickly as possible to get revenge on him.
  • I think Somerset would've retired.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Great film. Definitely one of my favourites. Certainly a slightly different take on the "two mismatched cops" cliche.
  • Posts: 12,526
    Morgan Freeman.......... what a quality actor! ^:)^
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I think Somerset would've retired.

    Why do you think so?
  • edited October 2012 Posts: 12,837
    Creasy47 wrote:
    I think Somerset would've retired.

    Why do you think so?

    He was near retirement from the start of the film and I don't think Mills going mental would change his mind, he said he'll be around, but he can still help him without being on the force.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I don't know. Somerset's answer of "I'll be around" seem to clue to me that he may not be on the force, but will be by David's side.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Now that you brought it up @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 - I haven't seen the film in some time, so I can't recall if I questioned it after I last viewed it - I do wonder what happens to Mills, and what type of person he would become if he was released from prison.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited October 2012 Posts: 28,694
    Creasy47 wrote:
    Now that you brought it up @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 - I haven't seen the film in some time, so I can't recall if I questioned it after I last viewed it - I do wonder what happens to Mills, and what type of person he would become if he was released from prison.
    When we first see him in the cop car, he seems like he has gone catatonic. Then we see him put his head down, so I guess not, it was just a state of shock. I love this film, but I don't much like anything after John asks Somerset and Mills to play his game, and they go off into the desert. I would rather have had Mills drop the gun, fall to his knees, and just breakdown. But then the ending wouldn't have the shock value I guess. I just think how they went about it could have been better presented.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I think the shock value was Mills finding out what happened to Tracy, because we know that no matter what happens at this point, it won't bring her or the unborn baby back. So tragic, with such an insane twist.
  • edited March 2013 Posts: 12,837
    bump

    I have an idea for the Alien/Aliens debate if anybody is intrested.
  • Posts: 7,653
    I doubt very much that Mills would spend any time in jail, the circumstances in which he shot the killer were so awefull no jury would ever dare to call out guilty.

    That said I fell in love with JS Bach:"Air" G on Strings in the Escena Biblioteca is sheer movie and music magic

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    bump

    I have an idea for the Alien/Aliens debate if anybody is intrested.

    Go ahead and tell me the idea. I'll update the thread and we'll run it. I thought this would be a great idea, but sadly, this thread idea never really kicked off.
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