SKYFALL: FANS' REACTIONS - GUARANTEED SPOILERS

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  • hoppimikehoppimike Kent, UK
    Posts: 290
    jka12002 wrote:
    Well its not like they have never had a gay character in the Bond franchise before. Baron Samedi is a good example.

    It's not the gay character though is it.. I mean I have obviously nothing against gay people.

    I dunno, it just seemed overly tongue-in-cheek, tacky and out of place. But then so did most of the movie lol
  • Posts: 2,081
    ^^ Oh, ok, you mean the whole scene is somehow wrong. Ok. - Well, I love it, one of my fave scenes ever (the whole of Silva+Bond first scene). Different tastes, again, then. *shrug*
  • jka12002jka12002 Banned
    Posts: 188
    Tuulia wrote:
    hoppimike wrote:
    Tuulia wrote:
    jka12002 wrote:
    Bond was clearly uncomfortable when Silva was touching him so i dont see how that scene is a big deal.

    Everyone who is sexually harassed is, of course, uncomfortable. Usually only women get sexually harassed in movies, and most people don't bat an eyelid. When it's done to a man it's a big deal. ;)

    That is SO not the problem here o.O

    The problem is that it's completely out of character for James Bond both as a character and as a movie series.

    WHAT is out of character? *completely confused* Bond seemed very much himself to me.
    jka12002 wrote:
    Well its not like they have never had a gay character in the Bond franchise before. Baron Samedi is a good example.

    There is no reason to think Silva is gay if that's what you mean.

    I meant that if you pay attention to Samedi's mannerisms in LALD he was clearly homosexual. I dont have anything against gays im just trying to explain that the subject of homosexuality isnt really new to the franchise. Thats all.
  • Posts: 2,081
    jka12002 wrote:
    Tuulia wrote:
    hoppimike wrote:
    Tuulia wrote:
    jka12002 wrote:
    Bond was clearly uncomfortable when Silva was touching him so i dont see how that scene is a big deal.

    Everyone who is sexually harassed is, of course, uncomfortable. Usually only women get sexually harassed in movies, and most people don't bat an eyelid. When it's done to a man it's a big deal. ;)

    That is SO not the problem here o.O

    The problem is that it's completely out of character for James Bond both as a character and as a movie series.

    WHAT is out of character? *completely confused* Bond seemed very much himself to me.
    jka12002 wrote:
    Well its not like they have never had a gay character in the Bond franchise before. Baron Samedi is a good example.

    There is no reason to think Silva is gay if that's what you mean.

    I meant that if you pay attention to Samedi's mannerisms in LALD he was clearly homosexual. I dont have anything against gays im just trying to explain that the subject of homosexuality isnt really new to the franchise. Thats all.

    I wasn't thinking you have anything against gays. I don't actually know what you meant - why you even mentioned any of that. Silva is hardly gay, so I don't see the relevance of gay characters in other movies. But never mind. :)

  • hoppimikehoppimike Kent, UK
    Posts: 290
    Tuulia wrote:
    ^^ Oh, ok, you mean the whole scene is somehow wrong. Ok. - Well, I love it, one of my fave scenes ever (the whole of Silva+Bond first scene). Different tastes, again, then. *shrug*

    Hm, well that's cool. In a way it's good/nice that some people liked it - proves how (to overuse the word lol) subjective it all is and that truly a film's appeal is in the eye of the beholder too :)

    So erm.. am I right in saying you also weren't cringing and ready to turn the film off / leave the cinema during the Home Alone -style bit at the end? lol

    I was so close to turning it off but decided to stick it out until the end at least...
  • edited February 2013 Posts: 2,081
    hoppimike wrote:
    Tuulia wrote:
    ^^ Oh, ok, you mean the whole scene is somehow wrong. Ok. - Well, I love it, one of my fave scenes ever (the whole of Silva+Bond first scene). Different tastes, again, then. *shrug*

    Hm, well that's cool. In a way it's good/nice that some people liked it - proves how (to overuse the word lol) subjective it all is and that truly a film's appeal is in the eye of the beholder too :)

    So erm.. am I right in saying you also weren't cringing and ready to turn the film off / leave the cinema during the Home Alone -style bit at the end? lol

    I was so close to turning it off but decided to stick it out until the end at least...

    Actually, a lot of people thought that scene was great. ;) I loved how it was shot - particularly Silva walking towards Bond/camera/audience. Great set. Loved Silva's monologue and the whole dialogue in that scene - clever, perceptive and funny. Loved Silva's extreme tenderness on Bond - of course it was still harassment, but it was hot regardless. ;) On the whole it was unusual and unique - in Bond films or any other. I also couldn't help making comparisons to CR's torture scene: darkness vs. light, naked Bond vs. fully clothed Bond, dark-haired villain clothed in black vs. blond villain clothed in cream and patterned shirt, extreme violence vs. extreme tenderness. Fascinating.

    And look, I saw the film 8 times in theatre (an all time record for me), and throughly enjoyed it every single time. So no, walking out in the middle of it never occurred to me. :)) The Scotland part? Ahhhh... the initial scenery, mmm, the drive... the lodge, the night falling, the dark with the orange and the silhouettes indoors as well as on the moors, the black against orange... beautiful. The music there, esp. She's Mine and The Moors - awesome. Silva's entrance, the helicopter, the perfectly chosen music Silva is playing... Boom Boom by The Animals ..."Boom, boom, boom, boom, gonna shoot you right down, take you in my arms, I'm in love with you..." (Btw, if you missed it, Silva had Trenet's Boum - the same pronunciation as Boom - playing on his island while explaining to Bond that he eliminates superfluous things from his life... before proceeding to shoot Severine.) Silva's face after he has ordered poor DB5's execution and then watches it die... and Bond's face when he sees his beloved car destroyed. Bond's unsentimental and bad-ass changing of guns (from his father's old rifle to a more modern firearm of one of Silva's men). Bond's determination in the house... running on the moors... Heck, seriously, I could go on, but you get my meaning: I loved it. :D I must say I was too busy enjoying bad-ass Bond and beautiful scenery and gorgeous cinematography and everything else that I'd have thought of an old, silly kids' movie I never liked.

    And yes: Of course any film's appeal depends on the viewer, there are no objective truths about good or bad.

  • jka12002jka12002 Banned
    Posts: 188
    "Ohhhhh Mama has been very bad to you....."
    That line alone had me cracking up for a while, the way he said it
  • Posts: 2,081
    ^^ "Mommy was very bad." ;) But yeah, it was great. :D My fave is "Her loss" - loved when and how he said it, and considering what he'd been saying just before it was hilarious.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Tuulia wrote:
    jka12002 wrote:
    Tuulia wrote:
    hoppimike wrote:
    Tuulia wrote:
    jka12002 wrote:
    Bond was clearly uncomfortable when Silva was touching him so i dont see how that scene is a big deal.

    Everyone who is sexually harassed is, of course, uncomfortable. Usually only women get sexually harassed in movies, and most people don't bat an eyelid. When it's done to a man it's a big deal. ;)

    That is SO not the problem here o.O

    The problem is that it's completely out of character for James Bond both as a character and as a movie series.

    WHAT is out of character? *completely confused* Bond seemed very much himself to me.
    jka12002 wrote:
    Well its not like they have never had a gay character in the Bond franchise before. Baron Samedi is a good example.

    There is no reason to think Silva is gay if that's what you mean.

    I meant that if you pay attention to Samedi's mannerisms in LALD he was clearly homosexual. I dont have anything against gays im just trying to explain that the subject of homosexuality isnt really new to the franchise. Thats all.

    I wasn't thinking you have anything against gays. I don't actually know what you meant - why you even mentioned any of that. Silva is hardly gay, so I don't see the relevance of gay characters in other movies. But never mind. :)

    Well, we can't say absolutely that Silva wasn't gay. There were clues, and it's a little rash to say for certain that he wasn't.
  • edited February 2013 Posts: 2,081
    ^^ Who can "absolutely" say about anyone, and what does it matter? ;) But seriously, I see no reason to think he was gay, and reason to think he wasn't, so I'm sticking to my view that he wasn't - and it makes no difference to the story in the movie, anyway.
    But like I've said before I really liked Mr. Craig's view about the matter, and he was so eloquent about it, too. :P
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Tuulia wrote:
    ^^ Who can "absolutely" say about anyone, and what does it matter? ;) But seriously, I see no reason to think he was gay, and reason to think he wasn't, so I'm sticking to my view that he wasn't - and it makes no difference to the story in the movie, anyway.
    But like I've said before I really liked Mr. Craig's view about the matter, and he was so eloquent about it, too. :P

    What did Dan say?
  • edited February 2013 Posts: 2,081
    ^^ Oh, I wouldn't be allowed to repeat it here... ;)

    at 2:18 to 2:20 here:



  • Well, we can't say absolutely that Silva wasn't gay. There were clues, and it's a little rash to say for certain that he wasn't.

    There are more clues to say that he wasn't gay than there are to say that he was.

    It's alluded to that he was Severine's lover, and that their relationship was advanced to the point that she thought they were in love. Silva kisses her before he shoots her and says that her "lovers" (he and Bond) are there.

    As I pointed out long ago, when Silva is hitting on Bond it's clearly something he is doing only to try to rattle Bond. Why is it clear? Because when Bond gives him an opening by saying "What makes you think that this is my first time?" instead of acting turned on and continuing with his advances he immediately - and forcefully - gets up from his chair and tries a new tactic.

  • edited February 2013 Posts: 2,081
    ^^ That reminds me... I liked how Silva addresses Bond alternatively as "James" (the first greeting, and when Bond catches up with him in London underground tunnels) and "Mr Bond" (after the "what makes you think this is my first time?" and at the frozen lake). Informal when Bond does what pleases Silva and formal when Silva is displeased with Bond. I thought that was interesting.
  • Tuulia wrote:
    ^^ That reminds me... I liked how Silva addresses Bond alternatively as "James" (the first greeting, when he's on the ladder and Bond catches up) and "Mr Bond" (after the "what makes you think this is my first time?" and at the frozen lake). Informal when Bond does what pleases Silva and formal when he does the opposite. I thought that was interesting.

    This is what I meant when I mentioned the "minutia" of scriptwriting in another thread (when someone was saying they should have eliminated the scene with Ronson and opened in the middle of the PTS car chase). It seems like such a small thing, but reveals a lot about Silva and his thoughts on Bond. While it may be subtle and some viewers may not consciously notice it it's the type of thing that may be picked up by the subconscious and help build the "feel" of the characters and their relationships.

  • Posts: 2,081
    ^^ Eliminated the scene with Ronson? It was important. Don't remember if I've seen that comment, but geez...
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Tuulia wrote:
    ^^ Eliminated the scene with Ronson? It was important. Don't remember if I've seen that comment, but geez...
    And it makes for such a startling opening! I would trade that damn gun barrel with the happy shock of hearing the Bond theme strike any day of the week. I love how it opens and would love to see more of the Bond films in the future have that style where the film opens and you jump in your seat.
  • Posts: 2,081
    Tuulia wrote:
    ^^ Eliminated the scene with Ronson? It was important. Don't remember if I've seen that comment, but geez...
    And it makes for such a startling opening! I would trade that damn gun barrel with the happy shock of hearing the Bond theme strike any day of the week. I love how it opens and would love to see more of the Bond films in the future have that style where the film opens and you jump in your seat.

    I loved it, too. Absolutely awesome in so many ways. Different, beautiful and stylish. The first few seconds were magic. The Ronson scene was important, obviously, and moving from indoors to outdoors... The idea that all that had been skipped over is terrible.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,136
    I'm in the group of fans who would like to see the gun barrel back at beginning of the film. Call me old fashioned, but Bond films start with the gun barrel. It's one of the things that sets Bond aside from all the immitators. The white dots racing across the screen, the Bond theme blaring at full volume. You're instantly transported into this thrilling world, and without it, it just feels....meh!
    Skyfalls opening was ok, but I'll go the gun barrel opening over artsy fartsy gumpf thanks. The gun barrel could still have opened SF and you could've retained all the Ronson scene intact. Leave out the overly dramatic and blurred entrance, and problem solved.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited February 2013 Posts: 28,694
    So many people are angry at the constant references and winks to the past 50 years in the franchise and its iconic moments (which Skyfall has barely any of really), yet the gunbarrel can stay? That is just as nostalgic and overdone as some say the DB5 is, and more so. I say if the DB5 is being told to go, the gun barrel at the start can go with it for all I care. People get so worked up over a five second sequence and say that "IT MUST GO AT THE START (!)", while it isn't even the meat of the film. I'll never understand it.

    I give points to Skyfall for trying something new.
  • It's not old fashioned, I see it as commonsense. For 40 years we had where it should always be, and was - and then they go and change it for Casino Royale and they haven't looked back. I get irritated every time watch I Bond now, and see it in it's wrongful place, and I can only hope next time, they just divorce themselves from that nonsense and put it back at the very start, where it was up to 2002 - and should always be
  • jka12002jka12002 Banned
    Posts: 188
    To be honest the Gunbarell is better at the end of the films this time around. I was happy to finally see one on the big screen in Skyfall and it was awesome.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    It's not old fashioned, I see it as commonsense. For 40 years we had where it should always be, and was - and then they go and change it for Casino Royale and they haven't looked back. I get irritated every time watch I Bond now, and see it in it's wrongful place, and I can only hope next time, they just divorce themselves from that nonsense and put it back at the very start, where it was up to 2002 - and should always be

    I still fail to see how many want Bond films to forget referencing the iconic parts of the franchise's past, yet the gun barrel is allowed to stay without umbrage? I just don't see the logic in it, that's all.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,136
    So many people are angry at the constant references and winks to the past 50 years in the franchise and its iconic moments (which Skyfall has barely any of really), yet the gunbarrel can stay? That is just as nostalgic and overdone as some say the DB5 is, and more so. I say if the DB5 is being told to go, the gun barrel at the start can go with it for all I care. People get so worked up over a five second sequence and say that "IT MUST GO AT THE START (!)", while it isn't even the meat of the film. I'll never understand it.

    I give points to Skyfall for trying something new.

    So you forgot CR and QOS had no gun barrel?
    At least at the start. It's hardly new.
    The gun barrel is not an iconic moment. It's the way the films opened for forty years or twenty films. It's part of what makes Bond unique. Aside from Star Wars, no other film series opens like Bond.


  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Benny wrote:
    So many people are angry at the constant references and winks to the past 50 years in the franchise and its iconic moments (which Skyfall has barely any of really), yet the gunbarrel can stay? That is just as nostalgic and overdone as some say the DB5 is, and more so. I say if the DB5 is being told to go, the gun barrel at the start can go with it for all I care. People get so worked up over a five second sequence and say that "IT MUST GO AT THE START (!)", while it isn't even the meat of the film. I'll never understand it.

    I give points to Skyfall for trying something new.

    So you forgot CR and QOS had no gun barrel?
    At least at the start. It's hardly new.
    The gun barrel is not an iconic moment. It's the way the films opened for forty years or twenty films. It's part of what makes Bond unique. Aside from Star Wars, no other film series opens like Bond.

    I wasn't referring to the stupid gun barrel at the start, I meant Skyfall opened with a real sharpness that gets you excited and into the film. Seeing the same old dots and shot play out doesn't do that, it's all played out.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,136
    I get the same experience from the gun barrel opening.
    For all the talk of Skyfall being a back to the traditional elements of the Bond films type film, it was a disappointment for fans who were hoping for the gun barrel at the start.
    I find it hard to believe Bond fans don't care that the GB is not at the start.
    Why the desire to change what has gone for forty years?
    It's part of the Bond series.
    What is so exciting to see a blurry figure enter a scene, with a jarring musical entrance?
    Did nothing for me.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Benny wrote:
    I get the same experience from the gun barrel opening.
    For all the talk of Skyfall being a back to the traditional elements of the Bond films type film, it was a disappointment for fans who were hoping for the gun barrel at the start.
    I find it hard to believe Bond fans don't care that the GB is not at the start.
    Why the desire to change what has gone for forty years?
    It's part of the Bond series.
    What is so exciting to see a blurry figure enter a scene, with a jarring musical entrance?
    Did nothing for me.

    The Aston DB5 is just as iconic a part of the franchise too, but everyone is ready to usher that out the door along with plenty of other traditions. People criticize Skyfall for not doing its own thing by setting new iconic moments and trends, but not having the gunbarrel at the start to allow a fresher opening doesn't do that satisfactorily enough?

    Anyway, enough on this topic, it is never going to get anywhere.
  • edited February 2013 Posts: 6,601
    Brady, if you look back, its only very few people, who are complaining about the DBS es. They hardly reflect the majority - neither here nor worldwide.
    As I see it from reactions here and worldwide, people were fine with the mix of old and new, BUT I can understand the wish for the gb at the beginning. I can understand, that it kicks off the initial Bond feeling BEFORE the film starts. I have a feeling, the might go back to it. There is no written rule from what I know, that Craig films cannot have it at the start.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    I think everyone's gone mental. The Gunbarrel and DB5 are not even slightly similar. I think everyone's blinded by there obsession with SF. You know, it is possible to adore the film, and have issues with it. It's actually quite amusing watching everyone fall over themselves in their quest to prove that it is a masterpiece of cinema.
  • edited February 2013 Posts: 12,837
    The DB5 was Sean Connery's car that wasn't in the films for 30 years, but since GE they've bought back it time and time again for a cheap nostalgia grab (although I liked it in SF).

    The gunbarrel is an iconic, fanastic opening sequence design that has never left the series and was always at the start until CR. Maybe I am being old fashioned but for 19 years of me watching Bond movies the GB was at the start and I see no reason to change that. It's where it worked best.

    If the gunbarrel can go why not ditch the theme song and title sequence? Yes we'd miss out on great theme songs and title designs, but it'd be so much more arty and striking if we got a nice shot followed by the films name instead. Let's have a terribly designed sped up title sequence at the end of the movie, instead of a great one in the middle. I don't see the difference between that and the gunbarrel.

    @Benny Completely agree. Nice shot but I really would've preferred a gunbarrel. You can't beat seeing the lights go down then having the white dots roll across the cinema screen. Fantastic.

    @RC7 I think most of the people saying the GB doesn't matter will be celebrating with the rest of us if it's at the start of Bond 24 (providing it's good) because they just want to like everything about the film.

    I agree, it's possible to like Skyfall while pointing out flaws with it. Some people though don't seem to be happy unless everybody thinks it's a masterpiece.
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