DC Comics Cinematic Universe (2013 - present)

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  • Posts: 187
    mtm wrote: »
    Christopher McQuarrie was going to make Man of Steel 2? I've not heard that before- that's a crying shame.

    Yep. He and Cavill both had ideas they had discussed on the set of MI: Fallout. His ideas even stretched to Green Lantern Corp which would have tied into his Man of Steel 2. WB ultimately passed after deciding they weren't interested in moving forward with the project.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,368
    They should have bitten his hand off!
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    edited April 2021 Posts: 7,854
    The DCEU has or had a tone problem that it's only now starting to break from. Man of Steel, Batman V Superman and Suicide Squad are all relatively dark movies with protagonists who don't work toward making the audience care about them. It wasn't until Wonder Woman that this problem started to fade, because the movie took a tone that worked for the character. Even the Snyder Cut of Justice League isn't the oppressively bleak picture that the first three films in this universe were, which makes me wonder if Snyder was finally starting to break from his assumed air of edginess. Aquaman and Shazam, too, are films with a tone to suit their characters rather than betraying the characters to fit the tone.

    If they just keep working on that, whether they're in the same universe or not, the DCEU can actually salvage itself, because there are brilliant ideas there, the execution simply lets them down.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    I think the lightness of JL can be attributed to after BvS underperforming at the box office and WB literally holding a gun to Snyder’s head telling him “MAKE IT LIGHT AND FUN LIKE MARVEL” and Snyder did his best balancing his own sensibilities with what his bosses were demanding.

    The only time it ever feels like 100% pure unadulterated Snyder in JL is his COVID additional shootings with Affleck and Leto where they get to exchange such dialogue like “I will f****** kill you” and “who will give you a reach around!?” which literally sounds like a 14 year old’s idea of what is DARK and EDGY.
  • Posts: 187
    I think the lightness of JL can be attributed to after BvS underperforming at the box office and WB literally holding a gun to Snyder’s head telling him “MAKE IT LIGHT AND FUN LIKE MARVEL” and Snyder did his best balancing his own sensibilities with what his bosses were demanding.

    The only time it ever feels like 100% pure unadulterated Snyder in JL is his COVID additional shootings with Affleck and Leto where they get to exchange such dialogue like “I will f****** kill you” and “who will give you a reach around!?” which literally sounds like a 14 year old’s idea of what is DARK and EDGY.

    Agreed. I think if they had kept the tone they managed to strike in the Snyder Cut sans that Knightmare epilogue, future projects would have been better.
  • Posts: 1,394
    This should be watched by everybody right before watching Zack Snyders Justice League.

    [url="[youtube]
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,368
    I watched it but I have no idea what's going on, and it's a weird world of angry superhero fan youtubers I'd like to not be exposed to again! :D
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    This should be watched by everybody right before watching Zack Snyders Justice League.

    Nobody should watch that video, ever.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,368
    I think if a film needs you to understand the weird abusive fan culture reaction that spawned it before you watch it, then there's something wrong with the film.

    To be fair to Snyder, I don't think you need to understand that before you watch Justice League: it works as a film on its own terms. But do I think that that this very strange culture would believe that you do is a problem, and I hope studios never listen to this sort of thing again. I'm worried they think they have power now (and this version of JL was made to give the HBO service a big blockbuster launch on a relatively small budget; it wouldn't have happened without that) and the sort of bizarre fanatical abuse that I've heard has been fired at anyone, any critic, which disagrees is a really dodgy and negative road for the whole thing to go down.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    I do not in any way support outrageous fan initiatives. I am a humble consumer who will take it all in and then voice his opinion. I am not the type that tries to get his foot in the door or pressure the film people into pursuing my own fan fantasies.

    So when the Snyder cut was released, I was happy and kept track of the project completely disconnected from the angry movement that had started it all. In fact, I spent most months in anticipation of this film without being fully aware of the 'release' cult.

    And I like this film, not as an obsessed fan who feels strangely vindicated now that the cut is out in the open, but as a fan of Snyder's take on the material who is indulged by this particular effort.

    I don't want affairs run by fan mobs, however, and I hope that this isn't the next business model for hot franchise films, if only because Kevin Feige, Barbara Broccoli and Kathleen Kennedy would never sleep again if it were.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    I'm like you @DarthDimi. I judged the film on its own terms, as a follow-up to BvS. The fan movement behind it is surely an important part of how it got released in the end, but it doesn't enter my mind when weighing up the pros and cons of the end product itself (of which there are many of both, adding up to one of the most interesting superhero films of all time).

    I think a lot of the most vocal and nasty commentators simply lept on to the bandwagon, based on what I can see. I'm sure one of them will likely tell me I'm wrong and to go back to watching movies made for kids - but my understanding of the process that brought the new version of the film to existence is that the film actually didn't exist at the time most of those clips used to make that video were recorded. It wasn't simply sitting there, finished, waiting to be released - it needed a lot of work before they even started adding in those extra scenes. So that video is automatically redundant, really. In short, The Snyder Cut didn't exist until it did.

    I give a lot of credit to the guys at the top of that movement for accomplishing what they did. They likely did it with the purest of intent, being genuine fans. Like a lot of great accomplishments, however, there are a lot of downsides. You just can't trust the larger population to have that same pure intent.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    Indeed, @CraigMooreOHMSS! Well said.
    I know I am being somewhat hypocritical. I am telling the hand that fed me to go screw itself. I enjoy the spoils of war but condemn the war talk in the trenches. Some petitions and campaigns have led to things I am glad have happened because I wanted them too, like a soundtrack finally released in full or an original version of a film also included in the next BR's bonus features. But overall, I disapprove of this level of fan "strongarming".

    Yet I see it as irrelevant how the Snyder Cut came into existence while I am watching the film. I understand the limitations of this project and the reason something else was released in 2017, and that's enough for me. Is this film tainted for me because some ardent fans wished for it and made that really really clear? No. Because in the end, it is a Snyder project, and Snyder's intentions are "noble". He didn't make this film because he had to, felt pressured to or accepted a gigantic paycheck for it, but because he wanted to do it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    If the Snyder Cut had already existed all these years, it wouldn’t have needed the additional $70m.
  • edited April 2021 Posts: 1,394
    mtm wrote: »
    I think if a film needs you to understand the weird abusive fan culture reaction that spawned it before you watch it, then there's something wrong with the film.

    To be fair to Snyder, I don't think you need to understand that before you watch Justice League: it works as a film on its own terms. But do I think that that this very strange culture would believe that you do is a problem, and I hope studios never listen to this sort of thing again. I'm worried they think they have power now (and this version of JL was made to give the HBO service a big blockbuster launch on a relatively small budget; it wouldn't have happened without that) and the sort of bizarre fanatical abuse that I've heard has been fired at anyone, any critic, which disagrees is a really dodgy and negative road for the whole thing to go down.

    That '' weird abusive fan culture '' raised over five hundred thousand dollars for The American Federation For Suicide prevention.Of course the access media always hone in on the minority '' toxic '' fan element ( which exists in all fandoms ) and people like you believe it.

    And dont forget that Deadpool happened because of the test footage leak that fans responded to with huge enthusiasm and Fox took a gamble on making it R rated just like the source material and the result was huge box office success and critical acclaim.

    And i think its a good idea that big companies listen to what their fans want.Its how business works.The Snyder Cut proves that WB made a huge mistake in fucking Snyder over and having Whedon mutilate his film.If they have any sense they will forget their crazy plan to make a Black Superman movie.Henry Cavills popularity as Superman has skyrocketed thanks to the Snyder Cut and they should have standalone trilogy in production with him right now.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,368
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think if a film needs you to understand the weird abusive fan culture reaction that spawned it before you watch it, then there's something wrong with the film.

    To be fair to Snyder, I don't think you need to understand that before you watch Justice League: it works as a film on its own terms. But do I think that that this very strange culture would believe that you do is a problem, and I hope studios never listen to this sort of thing again. I'm worried they think they have power now (and this version of JL was made to give the HBO service a big blockbuster launch on a relatively small budget; it wouldn't have happened without that) and the sort of bizarre fanatical abuse that I've heard has been fired at anyone, any critic, which disagrees is a really dodgy and negative road for the whole thing to go down.

    That '' weird abusive fan culture '' raised over five hundred thousand dollars for The American Federation For Suicide prevention.

    That's a really odd defence. The film wasn't made for charity, no.
    It's great that it did do that, but that wasn't what it was for, nor was it what the fans were doing all their hashtags for.
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Of course the access media always hone in on the minority '' toxic '' fan element ( which exists in all fandoms ) and people like you believe it.

    "People like you".
    What point was your youtube film making if not some sort of comment on the toxic element?
    The toxic element was given birth to by listening to them and pandering to their view that there's some massive conspiracy against Snyder. The glimpse of that world which your video gave us was frankly quite terrifying- lots of angry men shouting into their video cameras about superheroes.
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    And i think its a good idea that big companies listen to what their fans want.Its how business works.The Snyder Cut proves that WB made a huge mistake in fucking Snyder over and having Whedon mutilate his film.If they have any sense they will forget their crazy plan to make a Black Superman movie.

    Okay.
  • Hey folks, it’s been a while, busy with work and what not, but anyways...

    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/ray-fisher-opens-up-about-justice-league-joss-whedon-and-warners-i-dont-believe-some-of-these-people-are-fit-for-leadership

    Thoughts on this anyone? Makes me a bit angry considering I loved Fisher in the Snyder Cut.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited April 2021 Posts: 8,182
    I think Fisher’s grievances aren’t much of a big deal. He should try working with other hardass directors like James Cameron and David Fincher. Telling him to “stick it to the script” doesn’t exactly sound like the worst thing for an actor to go through.

    As far as Joss Whedon goes, the most infuriating thing isn’t how he interacted with Fisher but how he mistreated a pregnant Charisma Carpenter emotionally in such a horribly petty manner.
  • I think Fisher’s grievances aren’t much of a big deal. He should try working with other hardass directors like James Cameron and David Fincher. Telling him to “stick it to the script” doesn’t exactly sound like the worst thing for an actor to go through.

    As far as Joss Whedon goes, the most infuriating thing isn’t how he interacted with Fisher but how he mistreated a pregnant Charisma Carpenter emotionally in such a horribly petty manner.

    Can’t say I agree with that. I’d be pretty frustrated if what was supposed to be my breakout role was chopped up and reduced to a secondary character rather than the emotional center of the film, add to that the conversations from the executives behind the scenes. I understand his frustration. I feel a bit infuriated because I loved him as Cyborg in ZSJL. It was my second favorite performance of the film.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,205
    I think Fisher’s grievances aren’t much of a big deal. He should try working with other hardass directors like James Cameron and David Fincher. Telling him to “stick it to the script” doesn’t exactly sound like the worst thing for an actor to go through.

    As far as Joss Whedon goes, the most infuriating thing isn’t how he interacted with Fisher but how he mistreated a pregnant Charisma Carpenter emotionally in such a horribly petty manner.

    Can’t say I agree with that. I’d be pretty frustrated if what was supposed to be my breakout role was chopped up and reduced to a secondary character rather than the emotional center of the film, add to that the conversations from the executives behind the scenes. I understand his frustration. I feel a bit infuriated because I loved him as Cyborg in ZSJL. It was my second favorite performance of the film.
    I can understand being disappointed, even infuriated, but to inject race somewhat invalidates his complaints; nothing points to that being an issue. From the inception of film, actors have had to deal with tough directors and countless have seen their roles changed, diminished or even eliminated. Fisher, is coming off as petulant and by injecting race, desperate.

    Beyond him, this is the danger of an ensemble cast, everyone thinks their role, their character deserves more screen time . Just look at Star Trek.
  • talos7 wrote: »
    I think Fisher’s grievances aren’t much of a big deal. He should try working with other hardass directors like James Cameron and David Fincher. Telling him to “stick it to the script” doesn’t exactly sound like the worst thing for an actor to go through.

    As far as Joss Whedon goes, the most infuriating thing isn’t how he interacted with Fisher but how he mistreated a pregnant Charisma Carpenter emotionally in such a horribly petty manner.

    Can’t say I agree with that. I’d be pretty frustrated if what was supposed to be my breakout role was chopped up and reduced to a secondary character rather than the emotional center of the film, add to that the conversations from the executives behind the scenes. I understand his frustration. I feel a bit infuriated because I loved him as Cyborg in ZSJL. It was my second favorite performance of the film.
    I can understand being disappointed, even infuriated, but to inject race somewhat invalidates his complaints; nothing points to that being an issue. From the inception of film, actors have had to deal with tough directors and countless have seen their roles changed, diminished or even eliminated. Fisher, is coming off as petulant and by injecting race, desperate.

    Beyond him, this is the danger of an ensemble cast, everyone thinks their role, their character deserves more screen time . Just look at Star Trek.

    Well he did mention executives saying that they couldn’t have an “angry black man as the center of the film”, so I can understand the racist angle. I agree about your comment on the dangers of being in an ensemble cast, but this I wouldn’t say this is a typical example of an actor’s screen time being cut/his role diminished. It’s having the entire character of Cyborg diminished to something bland and uninteresting in the theatrical cut. I personally think that was one of the biggest mistakes Josstice League made. I can understand Fisher’s grievances a lot, and I’m glad he’s getting this out there.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    Fisher was also asserting that there was a racial motivation for cutting out POC actors in the film, even though prominent white actors like Willem Dafoe did not make the cut. It’s more just the consequence of cutting the film down to two hours. Iris West doesn’t even have a substantial role beyond being creepily ogled at by Flash in slow mo, so cutting her out was as relatively easy as Dafoe’s brief scene.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,205
    talos7 wrote: »
    I think Fisher’s grievances aren’t much of a big deal. He should try working with other hardass directors like James Cameron and David Fincher. Telling him to “stick it to the script” doesn’t exactly sound like the worst thing for an actor to go through.

    As far as Joss Whedon goes, the most infuriating thing isn’t how he interacted with Fisher but how he mistreated a pregnant Charisma Carpenter emotionally in such a horribly petty manner.

    Can’t say I agree with that. I’d be pretty frustrated if what was supposed to be my breakout role was chopped up and reduced to a secondary character rather than the emotional center of the film, add to that the conversations from the executives behind the scenes. I understand his frustration. I feel a bit infuriated because I loved him as Cyborg in ZSJL. It was my second favorite performance of the film.
    I can understand being disappointed, even infuriated, but to inject race somewhat invalidates his complaints; nothing points to that being an issue. From the inception of film, actors have had to deal with tough directors and countless have seen their roles changed, diminished or even eliminated. Fisher, is coming off as petulant and by injecting race, desperate.

    Beyond him, this is the danger of an ensemble cast, everyone thinks their role, their character deserves more screen time . Just look at Star Trek.

    Well he did mention executives saying that they couldn’t have an “angry black man as the center of the film”, so I can understand the racist angle. I agree about your comment on the dangers of being in an ensemble cast, but this I wouldn’t say this is a typical example of an actor’s screen time being cut/his role diminished. It’s having the entire character of Cyborg diminished to something bland and uninteresting in the theatrical cut. I personally think that was one of the biggest mistakes Josstice League made. I can understand Fisher’s grievances a lot, and I’m glad he’s getting this out there.
    Executives or Whedon? The investigation showed no racial motivations
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    If you’re wondering why WB isn’t as keen to continuing to work with Zack Snyder on more DC films, here ya go:

    https://www.cbr.com/zack-snyders-justice-league-third-biggest-hbo-max-debut-2021/
  • edited April 2021 Posts: 2,264
    If you’re wondering why WB isn’t as keen to continuing to work with Zack Snyder on more DC films, here ya go:

    https://www.cbr.com/zack-snyders-justice-league-third-biggest-hbo-max-debut-2021/

    I take issue with that article for a number of reasons. First off, Snyder’s JL came out on the 18th, they should’ve at least included the data from that day, instead of missing an entire day of the film being on the platform. Not to mention, that article quotes a Variety Fair article which states that WB “without providing numbers” stated GVK brought in the biggest boost of subs to HBOMax, even though the service was already seeing an increase in subscribers because of ZSJL. Not to mention, GVK isn’t a 4 hour long movie divided into chapters, not everyone is going to watch it all in one go, and that’s understandable. Even then, because ZSJL was in the top three that must mean WB doesn’t want to do the Snyderverse anymore? Last I checked WB isn’t the decision maker here to be honest. If, and when AT&T sees that the Snyder Cut is making money, then they’ll see the potential for more money by restoring the Snyder Verse. I wouldn’t bet against Zack Snyder doing more DC Films. #RestoreTheSnyderVerse has already trended on Twitter several different times, and now even Joe Manganellio is using the hashtag and calling for a solo Deathstroke project. The Snyderverse is a content goldmine for HBOMax, and I highly doubt AT&T/WM are going to ignore that, no matter how much WB may want to move on.

    talos7 wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    I think Fisher’s grievances aren’t much of a big deal. He should try working with other hardass directors like James Cameron and David Fincher. Telling him to “stick it to the script” doesn’t exactly sound like the worst thing for an actor to go through.

    As far as Joss Whedon goes, the most infuriating thing isn’t how he interacted with Fisher but how he mistreated a pregnant Charisma Carpenter emotionally in such a horribly petty manner.

    Can’t say I agree with that. I’d be pretty frustrated if what was supposed to be my breakout role was chopped up and reduced to a secondary character rather than the emotional center of the film, add to that the conversations from the executives behind the scenes. I understand his frustration. I feel a bit infuriated because I loved him as Cyborg in ZSJL. It was my second favorite performance of the film.
    I can understand being disappointed, even infuriated, but to inject race somewhat invalidates his complaints; nothing points to that being an issue. From the inception of film, actors have had to deal with tough directors and countless have seen their roles changed, diminished or even eliminated. Fisher, is coming off as petulant and by injecting race, desperate.

    Beyond him, this is the danger of an ensemble cast, everyone thinks their role, their character deserves more screen time . Just look at Star Trek.

    Well he did mention executives saying that they couldn’t have an “angry black man as the center of the film”, so I can understand the racist angle. I agree about your comment on the dangers of being in an ensemble cast, but this I wouldn’t say this is a typical example of an actor’s screen time being cut/his role diminished. It’s having the entire character of Cyborg diminished to something bland and uninteresting in the theatrical cut. I personally think that was one of the biggest mistakes Josstice League made. I can understand Fisher’s grievances a lot, and I’m glad he’s getting this out there.
    Executives or Whedon? The investigation showed no racial motivations

    The executives. Specifically Geoff Johns, Jon Berg, and Toby Emmerich. I think people tend to shift some of the racism accusations onto Joss Whedon when you look at the fact that about 4-5 POC roles were either significantly reduced/cut entirely from the movie. Then there’s the point of actors like Dafoe being removed as well. I think Fisher is trying to highlight that perhaps the “racism” angle came more from the executives rather than Whedon, but still, doesn’t excuse Whedon’s behavior. Plus, I could hardly care if there were directors that were way more harsh with their cast and crew, hell sometimes that kind of conflict makes for good art, but on a film set that was already suffering because of directorial changes, and last minute tragedies, having Whedon makes these changes, as well as treat the cast like garbage shouldn’t be excused, at least in my opinion.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,205
    If you’re wondering why WB isn’t as keen to continuing to work with Zack Snyder on more DC films, here ya go:

    https://www.cbr.com/zack-snyders-justice-league-third-biggest-hbo-max-debut-2021/

    I take issue with that article for a number of reasons. First off, Snyder’s JL came out on the 18th, they should’ve at least included the data from that day, instead of missing an entire day of the film being on the platform. Not to mention, that article quotes a Variety Fair article which states that WB “without providing numbers” stated GVK brought in the biggest boost of subs to HBOMax, even though the service was already seeing an increase in subscribers because of ZSJL. Not to mention, GVK isn’t a 4 hour long movie divided into chapters, not everyone is going to watch it all in one go, and that’s understandable. Even then, because ZSJL was in the top three that must mean WB doesn’t want to do the Snyderverse anymore? Last I checked WB isn’t the decision maker here to be honest. If, and when AT&T sees that the Snyder Cut is making money, then they’ll see the potential for more money by restoring the Snyder Verse. I wouldn’t bet against Zack Snyder doing more DC Films. #RestoreTheSnyderVerse has already trended on Twitter several different times, and now even Joe Manganellio is using the hashtag and calling for a solo Deathstroke project. The Snyderverse is a content goldmine for HBOMax, and I highly doubt AT&T/WM are going to ignore that, no matter how much WB may want to move on.

    talos7 wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    I think Fisher’s grievances aren’t much of a big deal. He should try working with other hardass directors like James Cameron and David Fincher. Telling him to “stick it to the script” doesn’t exactly sound like the worst thing for an actor to go through.

    As far as Joss Whedon goes, the most infuriating thing isn’t how he interacted with Fisher but how he mistreated a pregnant Charisma Carpenter emotionally in such a horribly petty manner.

    Can’t say I agree with that. I’d be pretty frustrated if what was supposed to be my breakout role was chopped up and reduced to a secondary character rather than the emotional center of the film, add to that the conversations from the executives behind the scenes. I understand his frustration. I feel a bit infuriated because I loved him as Cyborg in ZSJL. It was my second favorite performance of the film.
    I can understand being disappointed, even infuriated, but to inject race somewhat invalidates his complaints; nothing points to that being an issue. From the inception of film, actors have had to deal with tough directors and countless have seen their roles changed, diminished or even eliminated. Fisher, is coming off as petulant and by injecting race, desperate.

    Beyond him, this is the danger of an ensemble cast, everyone thinks their role, their character deserves more screen time . Just look at Star Trek.

    Well he did mention executives saying that they couldn’t have an “angry black man as the center of the film”, so I can understand the racist angle. I agree about your comment on the dangers of being in an ensemble cast, but this I wouldn’t say this is a typical example of an actor’s screen time being cut/his role diminished. It’s having the entire character of Cyborg diminished to something bland and uninteresting in the theatrical cut. I personally think that was one of the biggest mistakes Josstice League made. I can understand Fisher’s grievances a lot, and I’m glad he’s getting this out there.
    Executives or Whedon? The investigation showed no racial motivations

    The executives. Specifically Geoff Johns, Jon Berg, and Toby Emmerich. I think people tend to shift some of the racism accusations onto Joss Whedon when you look at the fact that about 4-5 POC roles were either significantly reduced/cut entirely from the movie. Then there’s the point of actors like Dafoe being removed as well. I think Fisher is trying to highlight that perhaps the “racism” angle came more from the executives rather than Whedon, but still, doesn’t excuse Whedon’s behavior. Plus, I could hardly care if there were directors that were way more harsh with their cast and crew, hell sometimes that kind of conflict makes for good art, but on a film set that was already suffering because of directorial changes, and last minute tragedies, having Whedon makes these changes, as well as treat the cast like garbage shouldn’t be excused, at least in my opinion.

    To be fair, I am a movie fan, and in my younger days a comic book fan. I enjoy films that focus on classic characters. I had never heard of Cyborg, and believe the same is true for the majority of casual movie goers. I go to a Justice League movie to see Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Batman, Aquaman, etc., Cyborg has no relevance and his color has nothing to do with that.

  • talos7 wrote: »
    If you’re wondering why WB isn’t as keen to continuing to work with Zack Snyder on more DC films, here ya go:

    https://www.cbr.com/zack-snyders-justice-league-third-biggest-hbo-max-debut-2021/

    I take issue with that article for a number of reasons. First off, Snyder’s JL came out on the 18th, they should’ve at least included the data from that day, instead of missing an entire day of the film being on the platform. Not to mention, that article quotes a Variety Fair article which states that WB “without providing numbers” stated GVK brought in the biggest boost of subs to HBOMax, even though the service was already seeing an increase in subscribers because of ZSJL. Not to mention, GVK isn’t a 4 hour long movie divided into chapters, not everyone is going to watch it all in one go, and that’s understandable. Even then, because ZSJL was in the top three that must mean WB doesn’t want to do the Snyderverse anymore? Last I checked WB isn’t the decision maker here to be honest. If, and when AT&T sees that the Snyder Cut is making money, then they’ll see the potential for more money by restoring the Snyder Verse. I wouldn’t bet against Zack Snyder doing more DC Films. #RestoreTheSnyderVerse has already trended on Twitter several different times, and now even Joe Manganellio is using the hashtag and calling for a solo Deathstroke project. The Snyderverse is a content goldmine for HBOMax, and I highly doubt AT&T/WM are going to ignore that, no matter how much WB may want to move on.

    talos7 wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    I think Fisher’s grievances aren’t much of a big deal. He should try working with other hardass directors like James Cameron and David Fincher. Telling him to “stick it to the script” doesn’t exactly sound like the worst thing for an actor to go through.

    As far as Joss Whedon goes, the most infuriating thing isn’t how he interacted with Fisher but how he mistreated a pregnant Charisma Carpenter emotionally in such a horribly petty manner.

    Can’t say I agree with that. I’d be pretty frustrated if what was supposed to be my breakout role was chopped up and reduced to a secondary character rather than the emotional center of the film, add to that the conversations from the executives behind the scenes. I understand his frustration. I feel a bit infuriated because I loved him as Cyborg in ZSJL. It was my second favorite performance of the film.
    I can understand being disappointed, even infuriated, but to inject race somewhat invalidates his complaints; nothing points to that being an issue. From the inception of film, actors have had to deal with tough directors and countless have seen their roles changed, diminished or even eliminated. Fisher, is coming off as petulant and by injecting race, desperate.

    Beyond him, this is the danger of an ensemble cast, everyone thinks their role, their character deserves more screen time . Just look at Star Trek.

    Well he did mention executives saying that they couldn’t have an “angry black man as the center of the film”, so I can understand the racist angle. I agree about your comment on the dangers of being in an ensemble cast, but this I wouldn’t say this is a typical example of an actor’s screen time being cut/his role diminished. It’s having the entire character of Cyborg diminished to something bland and uninteresting in the theatrical cut. I personally think that was one of the biggest mistakes Josstice League made. I can understand Fisher’s grievances a lot, and I’m glad he’s getting this out there.
    Executives or Whedon? The investigation showed no racial motivations

    The executives. Specifically Geoff Johns, Jon Berg, and Toby Emmerich. I think people tend to shift some of the racism accusations onto Joss Whedon when you look at the fact that about 4-5 POC roles were either significantly reduced/cut entirely from the movie. Then there’s the point of actors like Dafoe being removed as well. I think Fisher is trying to highlight that perhaps the “racism” angle came more from the executives rather than Whedon, but still, doesn’t excuse Whedon’s behavior. Plus, I could hardly care if there were directors that were way more harsh with their cast and crew, hell sometimes that kind of conflict makes for good art, but on a film set that was already suffering because of directorial changes, and last minute tragedies, having Whedon makes these changes, as well as treat the cast like garbage shouldn’t be excused, at least in my opinion.

    To be fair, I am a movie fan, and in my younger days a comic book fan. I enjoy films that focus on classic characters. I had never heard of Cyborg, and believe the same is true for the majority of casual movie goers. I go to a Justice League movie to see Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Batman, Aquaman, etc., Cyborg has no relevance and his color has nothing to do with that.

    Yes, typically you don’t see Cyborg in many JL adaptations. I grew up on the DCAU and the Teen Titans so I am aware, but I don’t really think that’s the point. This is Zack Snyder’s version of the JL, if he thought having Cyborg as the emotional center was the right move (which is was IMO), then so be it. The point is Ray Fisher signed on for what was supposed to be his breakout role, only to have his entire performance cut from the film because of the ego of an absurdly insecure director, and executives who showed more interest in earning money rather than doing what’s best for the story. His color ultimately came into play when these same executives are literally saying the reason they cut his role was because they “couldn’t have an angry Black Man” as a lead in the film. I don’t really see how it’s anything other than that.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,205
    Is the “ Angry Black Man” documented in writing or recording, or is it hearsay? Again the investigation says that race was not an issue.
  • talos7 wrote: »
    Is the “ Angry Black Man” documented in writing or recording, or is it hearsay? Again the investigation says that race was not an issue.

    That was a witness who participated in the investigation who came forward to notify Ray about these convos. The investigation can say race wasn’t an issue all it wants, all of the evidence points to the contrary. That entire investigation was poorly handled to begin with, because of how hard WB was trying to protect their top executives. Toby Emmerich is their literal studio chief, and he’s one of the main culprits behind Fisher’s accusations. I think to dismiss these claims behind “well the investigation found nothing” is kind being ignorant to the fact that we’re talking about a Multi Billion Dollar Film Studio that’s being run by suits who can tip balances to their favor. If you choose to keep not believing it, fine that’s your decision. But I’m highly inclined to believe Ray Fisher. He’s putting his entire career on the line to expose all of this, I’m going to believe the guy who has nothing to lose vs the studio trying to protect their top executives.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,368
    Sounds like a bit of a minefield: an awful lot of he said/she said stuff going on there- I doubt either side are 100% blameless. I look at the 'Booyah' stuff and tend to think: just say the line, you're dressed up as a superhero next to Batman and Superman- this isn't Shakespeare. But equally there's so much smoke around the Joss-Whedon-is-an-arsehole fire that it seems hard to believe that's not true either.
    On the race stuff: these guys are tuned into this after living with it all their lives and they were there- it's not for me to say they're wrong.
  • mtm wrote: »
    Sounds like a bit of a minefield: an awful lot of he said/she said stuff going on there- I doubt either side are 100% blameless. I look at the 'Booyah' stuff and tend to think: just say the line, you're dressed up as a superhero next to Batman and Superman- this isn't Shakespeare. But equally there's so much smoke around the Joss-Whedon-is-an-arsehole fire that it seems hard to believe that's not true either.
    On the race stuff: these guys are tuned into this after living with it all their lives and they were there- it's not for me to say they're wrong.

    The whole “Boo-Yah” thing is a bit blown out of proportion I agree, but I’m glad it didn’t make the SnyderCut because it would’ve been jarring with his character arc and so forth. It’s just fan service for those who loved the old 2004 Teen Titans cartoon, despite Cyborg never saying the catchphrase beforehand in the comics from what I’ve heard.

    What interests me was apparently there was a Reddit leak about 2-3 years ago detailing the toxicity on the set of JL following Snyder’s departure. One of those topics on that thread was Gal Gadot being threatened by Joss Whedon, which was just confirmed by this Hollywood reporter article.
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