I Think Bond as We Know It is Over

13»

Comments

  • Posts: 1,497
    Quoting The_Reaper: what makes this character James Bond? Craig in QoS could have been any random
    agent working for England. For real. What made him Bond? Besides being named
    James Bond of course.
    If we treat QOS as a coninuation of CR, the character of Bond is already well established. He is a British 00 agent, license to kill, working for British Secret Service under the supervision of M. He's physical, suave and lethal when he needs to be. He works on an international level visiting a variety of exotic locales. He has taste for fine women and drink (Vesper Martini) and has a classy mode of dress (tuxedo's). He plays high stakes poker, but has a penchant for winning and getting even. As someone else mentioned above, the Bondian character checklist is pretty complete in CR--a lot more so than we've seen in past decades. Elements of Bond's character exist in QOS: fast cars, the physicality, sly way of infiltrating and spying, bedding woman, the drink and the ruthlessness for which he leaves Greene for dead.

    To your point however, all that being said above, QOS is still plagued by a weak, unpolished script, shoddy, if not unrealized diretion, and the actors aren't as strong: particularly with the villain. Therefore the Bond character within this framework is not as well defined and convincing the way he is in CR.
  • Posts: 638
    Quoting DarthDimi: I feel QOS is an action flick with Bond in it, more so than a Bond film with action in it.
    I see your point, very much like LTK is a 80's revenge/drug flick with James Bond in it. However it is still James Bond, not Jason Bourne. THe editing of QoS is like a Bourne flick, but the central character is not. He may be a bit more serious this time around, but still has the Bond flair (We are teachers on sabbatical, Tosca).

    The use of MP and Q are not what makes a Bond film, Bond does. They were never as central characters in the books that they became in the films. Since Maxwell and Llewellyn are gone, I don't care if MP or Q ever come back because I never liked any of their successors.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Quoting jaguar007: The use of MP and Q are not what makes a Bond film, Bond does. They were never as central characters in the books that they became in the films.
    So any movie with a character named James Bond is Bondian? I'm sorry, but Q and MP are core elements to what make Bond 'Bond'. How about we also take the Bond theme completly out as well?
  • Posts: 638
    Quoting DaltonCraig007: o any movie with a character named James Bond is Bondian? I'm sorry, but Q and MP are core elements to what make Bond 'Bond'. How about we also take the Bond theme completly out as well?
    So I guess you don't count LALD as a Bond movie because Q is not in it?

    Major Boothroyd was not in almost 1/2 of Fleming's books and MP was not in all of them either. Do those not count as Bond books?
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Quoting jaguar007: Major Boothroyd was not in almost 1/2 of Fleming's books and MP was not in all of them either. Do those not count as Bond books?
    Books =/= Films.
  • Posts: 1,497
    Quoting DaltonCraig007: but Q and MP are core elements to what make Bond 'Bond'
    Q and MP are recurring side characters, not core elements of Bond. A Bond film like CR can aptly portray the character and style of Bond--without the presence of certain characters. If you took Alfred out of a Batman movie, you'd still know it's a Batman movie.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Well neither CR or QOS feel like Bond to me. Without Q, MP, a full-blast Bond theme, the gunbarrel at the start, etc, I just don't recognize CR and QOS from other action films.
  • Posts: 1,092
    I disagree about CR, DC007. It is very much a Bond film to me. And let it be known I like QoS a lot as well. It is a great follow up to CR and I understand why they made it that way; they wanted wash the sour tatse of Brosnan's cliches out of their mouths.

    But the pendulum has swung too far the opposite way against what makes Bond films Bondian.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    The problem with filmmakers these days is that they often fail to find the right balance. CGI is fine, just not too much. Shaky cam is fine, just not too much. A few fast cuts are fine, just not too much. Toning down Bond is fine, just not too much... It's a delicate exercise but important nonetheless, for it defines a good Bond film. FRWL had a few moments where Hunt took us through some highly kinetic editing too but when he did, it actually served the story, right there and then. This is entirely different from a film that mistakes me for an ADHD kid from its very first minute to its last. Also, Bond was played down-to-earth again in FYEO, after MR had pushed the envelope beyond the plausible. But FYEO kept all the elements, only some in smaller doses. Again, balance! Instead of radically taking out bits and pieces, it's much more important to regain control over certain excessively used elements. Compare it to diets if you will. A diet that takes an everyday ingredient out completely is bound to fail. A diet based on tolerating everything but in sufficiently controlled quantities, is so much more successful.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    I would argue that the Brosnan films were just generic action flicks with all the ingredients thrown at them, DC007 the fact you need these elements to remind you of Bond proves that it's not the character that makes you think it's Bond but the window dressing.

    I'm sure as time goes on you'll get more of those tick the box throw in all the cliches films but I'll be signing off the series by then, for all it's faults at least the last movies have tried to show the character and not some cardboard cut out going from cliche to cliche with everything but the kitchen sink thrown in telling us it's James Bond with the subtlty of a sledgehammer. ie the PB era or should that be error?
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    Quoting DaltonCraig007: Books =/= Films.
    But they should do, that's the thing.

    I do agree both Moneypenny and Q are not needed for every film and even when they do return, taking a film out and not having them in it could also really help the series, introducing May would also work. There are so many things to do in the films, that bringing back two characters on a permanent basis should not be top of the list.
  • Posts: 1,092
    No, you need balance, as Darth said. Go too far one way and you Brosnan cliches checking the boxes for what is Bond. Too far the other way and you get a Bourne clone, what QoS is to some people.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited April 2011 Posts: 15,718
    Quoting Shardlake: I'm sure as time goes on you'll get more of those tick the box throw in all the cliches films but I'll be signing off the series by then, for all it's faults at least the last movies have tried to show the character and not some cardboard cut out going from cliche to cliche with everything but the kitchen sink thrown in telling us it's James Bond with the subtlty of a sledgehammer.
    While I agree the Brosnan films were very cliche-ridden, I disagree with how the last 2 films just throw all the Bond elements out the window. Bond shouldn't be a box-ticking list of cliches, but it also shouldn't be devoid of the elements that make Bond 'Bond'. The last 2 films are very good action films, but they are close of being unrecognizable from other films of this genre.

    I am sure that for many Bond fans, watching a Bond film with no Q, no MP, no gadgets, no Bond theme during an action sequence, no witty one liner when Bond disposes of someone, etc, they end up wondering if they've just watched a Bond film, or some regular action film.
  • Posts: 638
    Quoting DaltonCraig007: I disagree with how the last 2 films just throw all the Bond elements out the window. Bond shouldn't be a box-ticking list of cliches, but it also shouldn't be devoid of the elements that make Bond 'Bond'.
    I disagree that that took everything Bond out of the last two films, especially CR. It felt like a Bond film, just a little shaken (but not stirred). QoS actually very much used the Bond formula in the film, it just tried to hide it.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    While I can see the argument for QOS not being Bond, CR felt like the most Bondian film since the Dalton era, the music, one liners & the side line characters do not make a Bond film, that is what made the series so cheap and tacky, yes I want the JB theme back but only sparingly. If Q & MP return it has to be within context of the story not like they were represented in the PB era.

    The point is to introduce the character we'll all see if the next films see's those characteristics emerge or not. I'm not entirely sure where we are with Bond yes I'd like more Bondian elements but not box ticking, Mendes doesn't make me think everthing is hunky dory but I guess we'll see, I like Craig as Bond and just hope Bond 23 surprises us but in a good way!
  • Posts: 116
    Bond is very much like Doctor Who; the tone of each 'era' is very much determined by the actor playing the character. When BBC brought DW back in 2005, they had to combat the (false) impression that DW was a kids comedy. They cast dramatic actor Chris Ecclestone, dressed him in black with a leather jacket, deprived him of his Victorian locks, and that set the tone for "Ecclestone Era". Many older fans were put off by this. They missed the whimsy and innocence of the past eras. The producers loosened up a little with the casting of David Tennant, who brought back much of the zany humor and quirks of past Doctors. Now that audiences had gotten the image of DW as a low budget kiddie comedy show out of their minds, it became safe with the casting of Matt Smith to bring back all of the traditional DW elements: funny clothes, gimmicks (funny hats, candy), and the weird other-worldliness of the character.

    I think the same will happen with Bond. The Brosnen era began with a script meant for Dalton. Once PB sank his teeth into the character, the series reflected what he did best: humor, over the top action, smirking womanizing etc. That's how he saw the character and the producers played to that. Audiences seemed to love it.

    Craig plays Bond 100% straight, as a human being, not a superhero. We're never going to see him in outer space or surfing down the face of a melting ice shelf. Now, I like this. So far, the early Connery films, the two Daltons and the two Craigs best reflect what I personally enjoy about the IF novels. So I'm happy. QOS has even risen almost to the top in my list of favorite Bond films. I like it stripped down, on a human level, with the tougher version of Bond in place.

    But eventually, in popular culture, "everything old is new again". We'll see with the next actor the producers extolling the return of "classic Bond elements", more fitting for the "modern audience" who grew tired of the grim grittiness of the DC era etc. I could write the press copy for them today, it's so predictable...
  • Posts: 618
    There is one thing, I don't know if it's really on-topic, but my Bond fandom will get a major hit when one of the past James Bond will die. I do not know if I will be able to watch MR, OP, TMWTGG when Moore will pass away. Same thing with Connery. I may watch them, but my enjoyment will be tainted by the thought of Moore, Connery not being alive anymore.
    Well, there are lots of (now) dead actors in the Bond films...

    As someone who loves (and watches a lot of) pre-1990 movies -- and is a big fan of classic horror -- I can unequivocally say that my enjoyment of Bela Lugosi and Peter Cushing films is in no way tainted because those gentlemen are long dead.

    In the movies... they are immortal.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    There is one thing, I don't know if it's really on-topic, but my Bond fandom will get a major hit when one of the past James Bond will die. I do not know if I will be able to watch MR, OP, TMWTGG when Moore will pass away. Same thing with Connery. I may watch them, but my enjoyment will be tainted by the thought of Moore, Connery not being alive anymore.
    Well, there are lots of (now) dead actors in the Bond films...
    I am talking about Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton, Brosnan and Craig... Once one of these 6 men will pass away, I am not sure I will want to watch their films anymore.

    Whenever I see an article or interview on Moore or Connery, I always enjoy reading it. I don't think I'll be enjoying a Bond film once one of them will be dead.
  • Most of what I was going to say has been said by others (extremely well, I might add) so I'll just make a few points...

    Films always evolve. You can't stop it. And I say that's a great thing. If films didn't evolve then I would have watched a black and white, musical Western in the style of Roy Rogers the other night instead of the Coen's True Grit.

    The Bond films will always evolve to incorporate current film-making styles, techniques, and what is fashionable to the mainstream audience. I've had the great fortune to see many old Bond films on the big screen and see how they play to older fans, new fans, and people that were just curious. Think about Bond's fight with Dr. No at the end of that film. Is that really what you want in a fight scene in a modern Bond film? Think of the car chase in Dr. No - aren't you glad that the car chases in modern Bond films aren't shot the same way?

    Now think of the action scenes in CR. When I saw it in the theatre they were actually thrilling. I mean, they made what started out as a foot chase one of the most exciting action scenes I (and the rest of the audience based on the reaction) had ever seen. But there's something even more important - the "Madagascar chase" revealed as much about Bond's character as any dialogue could. Think of how many times a character complains about Bond being stubborn or having an ego, or how determined he could be. Bond's refusal to give up during that chase in CR showed those qualities as much or more than any dialogue in, say, the Brosnan films (show - don't tell). It also showed that he was a highly trained agent and was a quick thinker - again, great traits to show.

    So the above paragraph shows that the *way* the filmmakers do something, and use it, is more important than *what* they're doing. Sometimes it's good (the above-mentioned chase), sometimes it's bad (I read an interview where the director of QOS said he edited the early action scenes in a confusing way to mirror that Bond didn't know what was going on - interesting idea in theory but comes off as wanking in execution).

    The other point I wanted to make was about "traditional" Bond. When I was 12/13 we used to watch the older (pre-MR) Bond films over and over again on TV. That really cemented our ideas of what Bond was in our heads. But as many have pointed out, our ideas of Bond were an accumulation of things that occured in the *series*, not in every individual film. So when they took the "checklist approach" to certain elements in the Brosnan films it felt like someone trying to make what they *thought* was a Bond film. If there's no reason for Bond to visit a high-end casino, then don't have him go.

    I have no problem bring back Q or Moneypenny as long as there's a legitimate reason for them instead of fanwanking (or just as bad, gratuitous humour). Same with other elements. Like the chase scene in CR, if it's well done andd adds something to the plot or character then go for it. But to have it for the sake of having it...why?
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2011 Posts: 15,718
    Great post. @thelordflasheart !! :-bd But one question arise - You say that familiar elements shouldn't be featured in the new films if they're there solely for fanwanking... But how many familiar elements can they strip from the earlier films until the newest outings become unrecognizable from other action scenes ?
  • DaltonCraig007 - thank you, and you do raise a good point. Obviously stripping *every* element which had appeared in previous Bond films would be as bad as trying to shoehorn them all in to every film. I guess it starts with what I think is the basis for a Bond film.

    For me, Bond is a British secret agent who reports to M and receives his mission from him or her. He travels to exotic places where he tries to piece together enough information to discover the exact nature of a threat to Queen and country or the world at large and then defeat that threat. That threat could be posed by a person, an organization, or another nation - I really don't think it matters as long as the threat and its consequences are well defined, interesting, and unique.

    The place that Bond travels to should be exotic and even a little unknown to most people, and the best Bond films show the local culture as well as interesting or beautiful scenery. Bond is a man of means and taste and there is an ability for the audience to live vicariously through him, not just in traveling to these exotic locations but also in his experiencing the finer things in life, such as cars, clothes, and food and drink.

    Male members of the audience also live vicariously through him as he's the man we want to be - imposing not just through his physical ability but also through the force of his personality and presence. He is a man who is instantly noticed and deferred to when he walks into a room (although that's at odds with his role as a secret agent!) and if he isn't in command of a situation he will take command due to his resourcefullness, skills, ingenuity, or force of personality. Because of these traits women in the audience are attracted to him as much as men want to be him.

    In the course of his adventures Bond meets with, or meets for the first time, colleagues with whom he has trust or gains trust. He meets a woman (or women) and has a flirtatious relationship with them whether or not it's an agreeable meeting. The sexual tension is palpable, if not right away, then eventually. These women shouldn't be bimbos because a) they aren't a match for a man like Bond (it says a lot about a man if he goes after "easy pickings" - he isn't a boastful Axe-fragrance-wearing fratboy with something to prove) and b) why would the women in the audience identify with them? Like the character of Bond a "Bond girl" can be smart, resourceful, *and* sexy - they aren't mutually exclusive traits.

    The best Bond films in my opinion have an air of timeless class to them, and an air of romance. Not just romance in the way of romantic love, but the romance of the exoticness of the settings, the music, the beautiful cinematography and production design. CR was a much more "grounded" film than many others but it kept that air of class and romance, while LTK didn't in my opinion. GE was another film that I thought had that air of timeless class to it, although it was more fanciful.

    Once those elements are in place than it doesn't much matter to me if Bond orders a martini that is shaken, not stirred (would any bartender actually try to stir a vodka martini? Yeesh) or goes to a casino. Nice to have a couple of touchstones in each film, but more isn't always better.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Great post again, thelortflasheart !! :-bd
  • edited June 2011 Posts: 638
    Thelordflasheart, will you be my new best friend =D>
  • Spot on thelortflasheart.
Sign In or Register to comment.