Too much CGI in Skyfall ? Or just Obvious CGI that wasn't needed ?

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  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I still don't understand what you're getting at, for some reason, particularly by "they could've just done effects for all of it."
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I still don't understand what you're getting at, for some reason, particularly by "they could've just done effects for all of it."

    In the history of Bond, there's a tradition of doing car stunts for real, at all times. That's why I said, it makes more sense for the SP team to use the budget to do chases for real and not with computer effects. It's how it's always been done.

    The Bond series has often handled explosions differently, however, using small models and cheaper effects to be more cost effective dating back to the first film. That's why I think it wouldn't be a big deal if EON's team didn't do those things for real, as it saves them money in the long run and those seconds long explosions aren't worth spending so much on anyway. This is in comparison to the chases, which do run them higher, but that actually have a function in the plot and a purpose to move the narrative along. An explosion is only ever an explosion.

    Basically, chases should be done for real as there's a tradition and desire to see it done that way, and explosions can be faked because there's a tradition of them being faked when needed.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I don't feel as if the SP chase truly had a function in the plot - Bond was "unmasked" at the meeting and needed to make a quick escape; they could've done so many other things instead of shelling out so much for what appears to be a rather tame car chase. Just off the top of my head, it would've been great to see Bond pursued by some thugs on foot that he dispatches, and just when he thinks he has escaped into the nightly silence of Rome, Hinx appears and they fight one another. Somehow, Bond gets the upper hand in the tussle and makes his escape, assuming he dispatched him/avoided him successfully for the time being (much like Jaws throughout TSWLM). Would've been nice if Hinx and Bond were a little more physical with one another throughout (instead of having their initial two meetings revolve around vehicle chase scenes), so he slowly breaks Bond down further and further throughout the film, adding even more credibility to the ass-kicking Bond takes on the train.

    Don't get me wrong, I AM glad that it's all done through real cars and real stuntwork - that'll always be appreciated - but just knowing what was spent on it, I wish we got more. I've seen chases that seem to look bigger or last longer in other films, that didn't cost anywhere near how much they poured into this one.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I don't feel as strongly as you do, but I get it. The most I would have wanted to see is a few more cars from the meeting pursue Bond, with all the agents basically competing to get Bond's head. Hinx then rolls in and rams all of them out of the chase, killing them to get the "trophy" for himself.

    I don't think Hinx and Bond needed to get physical before the train, as it would muddle things a bit. Having them fight too much takes away from that big moment that comes out of nowhere (if you haven't seen the trailers, haha). It's more powerful to me because the movie teases you with their face-off, with Hinx always just behind Bond, and sooner or later you know they will catch up with one another and collide.

    That's part of why the train fight in FRWL is so powerful. Bond and Grant don't get physical for the entire film, and instead the script teases and teases until that moment.

    I think Hinx's use is great, and they did as much as they could with that kind of mute, fatal character. Nothing crazy gets done with Oddjob in GF either, and the fight he and Bond has is one of the lamest and most disappoint in the series, yet people love him unconditionally. I actually fear Hinx, and believe he could kill a man (partly because we see it). I love Sakata, but I never feel fear to the level of Bautista's Hinx, and if Barry's chimes weren't there to introduce Oddjob his level of fear would be even more fickle.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Regardless of my thoughts on the film, I'll always, always be thankful that they finally gave Craig a henchman that was superior to him, in terms of physicality. Having a Bond as muscular as him, I've wanted a fight scene like that since 2006: Bond getting his ass completely handed to him, before using some ingenuity to gain the upper hand at the last second.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Regardless of my thoughts on the film, I'll always, always be thankful that they finally gave Craig a henchman that was superior to him, in terms of physicality. Having a Bond as muscular as him, I've wanted a fight scene like that since 2006: Bond getting his ass completely handed to him, before using some ingenuity to gain the upper hand at the last second.

    It's an all-time moment for me, and I know we both wanted that. We also got to see White again. You might not feel the same, but I was touched by how he was used and the statement they made with him that fits the morally complex Craig Bond world.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,216
    I would have liked to have seen Hinx fleshed out a bit more to establish his intelligence and refinement.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Regardless of my thoughts on the film, I'll always, always be thankful that they finally gave Craig a henchman that was superior to him, in terms of physicality. Having a Bond as muscular as him, I've wanted a fight scene like that since 2006: Bond getting his ass completely handed to him, before using some ingenuity to gain the upper hand at the last second.

    It's an all-time moment for me, and I know we both wanted that. We also got to see White again. You might not feel the same, but I was touched by how he was used and the statement they made with him that fits the morally complex Craig Bond world.

    Any sort of return for Quantum/Mr. White is also appreciated in my eyes, regardless of any other feelings. We're both such big fans of QoS, and I always hoped that we would get some sort of continuation/conclusion regarding that storyline/organization, so I'm real happy they didn't decide to sideline it, figuring most audience members wouldn't recall or care about the 2008 installment. Kudos to them for that.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Regardless of my thoughts on the film, I'll always, always be thankful that they finally gave Craig a henchman that was superior to him, in terms of physicality. Having a Bond as muscular as him, I've wanted a fight scene like that since 2006: Bond getting his ass completely handed to him, before using some ingenuity to gain the upper hand at the last second.

    It's an all-time moment for me, and I know we both wanted that. We also got to see White again. You might not feel the same, but I was touched by how he was used and the statement they made with him that fits the morally complex Craig Bond world.

    White is one of the best characters in the entire franchise. I got lucky on the red carpet at the SP premiere and managed to get a pic with Jesper, which made my night. In a way I'm sad we won't see him again, but I'm glad they gave him a suitably macabre and haunting send off.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    RC7 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Regardless of my thoughts on the film, I'll always, always be thankful that they finally gave Craig a henchman that was superior to him, in terms of physicality. Having a Bond as muscular as him, I've wanted a fight scene like that since 2006: Bond getting his ass completely handed to him, before using some ingenuity to gain the upper hand at the last second.

    It's an all-time moment for me, and I know we both wanted that. We also got to see White again. You might not feel the same, but I was touched by how he was used and the statement they made with him that fits the morally complex Craig Bond world.

    White is one of the best characters in the entire franchise. I got lucky on the red carpet at the SP premiere and managed to get a pic with Jesper, which made my night. In a way I'm sad we won't see him again, but I'm glad they gave him a suitably macabre and haunting send off.

    @RC7, I agree. White is one of the most well framed and executed characters in all of Bond. The tragedy of his character is haunting, and the moment I heard him speak in the first trailer for SP, I shrieked with joy. I'm so happy he got to go out in such a fascinating way, and certainly not in any way I would have ever expected. Their dialogue is one of my favorite moments in a Bond film ever, so well written and played.

    Who would've thought that the man laying at Bond's feet at the end of CR would also be the one who taught him his most cautionary lesson about life and their dangerous world?
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    I don't have a problem with cgi as long as I don't notice it, and unfortunately I have a great eye for cgi so it spoils my viewing of skyfall and somewhat SPECTRE
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    It's more Mendes inconsistency. Could've used miniatures for the MI6 explosion, and he went with a CG explosion instead, which begs the question of why he didn't do it for Blofeld's base explosion, as well.

    I do agree that miniatures would have been preferable for the MI6 explosion (I thought TWINE's was excellent). But he couldn't do a CGI explosion on Blofeld's base because the base wasn't an actual building, so it probably would have looked too fake to include CG fire and building.

    327710AF00000578-0-image-a-25_1458896654393.jpg

    I'm not sure why it's an issue for you though - the fact he uses both CGI and practical effects. Young used green screen and practical effects.

    Again, grasping at straws. SP isn't a good film, but credit where credit's due. They did a real explosion and it looks great. My problem with that scene derives from poor scripting (ie. Bond's accuracy is fine, one shot causes the entire complex to go up, not enough time spent at the observatory, and the fact it leads on to one of the most disastrous acts in any Bond film).

    Funnily enough, though, I think the MI6 explosion in SF is one of the best uses of CG I have ever seen. It was photo-realistic.

    Oddly enough, the Spielberg ideal of using light/dark and the elements (wind, rain) to shield computer graphics didn't apply to Bond in the last two flicks.

    The daytime MI6 explosion in SF was far more convincing than the same building collapsing at night in SP.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    @MrKissKissBangBang, it's that same inconsistency we get in SF, too: Bond's not what he used to be after getting shot, is pretty incompetent throughout most of the film, can't save Severine with a single bullet...but then guns down all of Silva's men and arrests him with no problem.

    And yes, credit where credit's due: should they have shelled out a lot for the base explosion? Probably not, but did it look good? Absolutely.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @MrKissKissBangBang, it's that same inconsistency we get in SF, too: Bond's not what he used to be after getting shot, is pretty incompetent throughout most of the film, can't save Severine with a single bullet...but then guns down all of Silva's men and arrests him with no problem.

    And yes, credit where credit's due: should they have shelled out a lot for the base explosion? Probably not, but did it look good? Absolutely.

    It's not that Bond isn't "what he used to be," he can't be the same shot because his arm was all jacked up. Nor would he have been able to save Severine with Silva handling a blaster gun at his direct side and another gun with a pistol aimed at his head that didn't get taken away until after he shot, giving him only a pause to do anything. He also never thought Silva was actually going to kill her. He knew this guy was a real sadistic bastard judging by how he treated her, but I don't think he ever imagined Silva was just going to randomly blow her head off without a thought.

    The moments some people think are "inconsistent" in SF can be found in ample supply in some of the best movies in the series-as dictated by the public and this forum-but it's SF that has to burn. I honestly don't get it.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I understand why he can't be the same shot, but utilizing that same logic, why can he cut down all of Silva's men with absolutely no issues then, mere seconds later? It's wholly inconsistent. As for the other reasoning regarding why he couldn't save her, that's assuming that Bond doesn't know how to work under pressure, something that has literally never stopped him before. He's defused bombs while dressed as a clown and talked his way out of being sawed in half by a laser, surely a stressful environment is something Bond has no issues dealing with. Also, certainly Bond doesn't see Severine, who is chained, beaten, and crying, and honestly think "Hey, maybe this Silva guy is putting on a show and isn't really going to kill her." If he had no intentions of doing that, he would've just set a shot glass down and challenged him to a marksman's challenge.

    And yes, these same issues can be found in countless other Bond installments. The only difference for me (this is where we disagree, so let's not get into the same old back-and-forth once more) is that none of the other films, in my opinion, have been this serious and grounded before, so I hold the era to much higher standards than a lot of the others.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited March 2017 Posts: 40,976
    Exactly, there's a big difference between a skilled agent not being able to shoot a single shot glass, but can take down five or so men with expert precision just seconds later with no problem whatsoever.

    The CR scene isn't comparable to my complaint regarding that particular sequence in SF. A skilled 00 agent's accuracy with a weapon and the odds at winning a poker game are two different things.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    To be fair though, the amount of precision it takes to shoot a tiny shot glass a mere 40 metres away is vastly different from shooting a man at a fairly close range.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Exactly, there's a big difference between a skilled agent not being able to shoot a single shot glass, but can take down five or so men with expert precision just seconds later with no problem whatsoever.

    Don't put words in my mouth.

    A skilled agent who isn't who he once was. He isn't confident in his ability - there was no way he couldn't make the shot, especially at that distance (the training scene at the start shows how much Bond was off). For Bond to take down five men in close range is much easier, because the idea is to kill/subdue them. Doesn't matter where he shoots them on their bodies because it will neutralise them, at least for a split second, if it doesn't kill them. The idea of shooting at a small glass on Severine's at a distance in order to protect her requires more effort than taking down five men in closer proximity.
    The CR scene isn't comparable to my complaint regarding that particular sequence in SF. A skilled 00 agent's accuracy with a weapon and the odds at winning a poker game are two different things.

    Nope. Because if you supposedly can't buy Bond engaging in the aforementioned sequence with Severine in SF - which actually makes sense and is one of the best scenes in the film - there is no way you can buy a near-dead Bond well enough to get back into a poker game, when the stakes are as high as they are, with the same focus as before, when he was losing.

    This smells suspiciously like a CR apologist hating on a better Bond film because they're upset it's dethroned their beloved film from their pedestal.

    I think you'll find his favourite Craig film is QoS.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. I'll never see it that way, it's just an injury that only alters Bond's abilities when the story calls for it.

    I do also enjoy CR, but I honestly couldn't care less how they're ranked by the overall audience. I like what I like, and I dislike what I dislike.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited March 2017 Posts: 28,694
    @Creasy47, I have no intentions to argue, we know each other too well to slip into that.

    The way I view that scene, just to discuss it in a minor capacity, has to do with where Bond was at during the time. You can't say Bond faced this and that in other eras, because those are different Bonds; we're talking Craig Bond here. He'd just come back from a near-death experience brought on by a boss who didn't trust him to do what he was tasked with. The anxiety of that distrust he feels towards M eats him up, and he begins to believe what everyone is saying about him, ie. "Bond you're washed up and past it," etc. When Silva hands Bond the gun and has him shoot, Bond is certainly still a little pained in his shoulder to keep a completely steady aim for such a long shot, but he's also got a gun to his head and Silva barking at him about how far past the expiration date he is. All that stimuli and all those thoughts then make him go on edge. Adding to this, Bond is preparing to shoot, and has to make sure that he misses in order to spare Severine. The weapons they're using are massive vintage dueling pistols with ammunition of a bigger size, which means he could tear through Severine with one shot or blast whole parts of her to pieces if he's not careful in judging the shot. He has to fake it out and miss, and has to go against his internal training to do it, as he's taught to never intentionally miss. He's got to do a lot of reprogramming in that quick moment, all while silencing his inner doubts. This is made all the harder by his shaking, which is making it hard for him to purposefully miss, as his internal target keeps scattering and moving out of the range he wants to shoot at.

    I still don't think he ever expected for Silva to randomly shoot Severine in a quick moment he couldn't stop, but he's able to use the quiet moment afterward and his put-on expression of indifference to fake out the gunmen and go on the offensive. Silva's men see that he's out of bullets now (only one in the chamber of that dueling pistol), and think that there's no way he could get one over on them. Bond being Bond, however, can still do short range fighting when the targets are much closer. With his aim no longer such a pressing issue, he's able to face them off and get out alive.
    This smells suspiciously like a CR apologist hating on a better Bond film because they're upset it's dethroned their beloved film from their pedestal.

    @MrKissKissBangBang, I respect your viewpoints (and how positive you can be about SF on a forum that can often take it to task), but that's not Creasy at all. You're new here and so you're rightfully unfamiliar with some personalities of veteran posters, but although Creasy has made it clear that he's not as enthused about the Mendes films, he's about as straight a shooter as you can find around these parts. He's just making his arguments, "nothing sinister." ;)
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