Too much CGI in Skyfall ? Or just Obvious CGI that wasn't needed ?

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    bondjames wrote: »
    That's why some of the stuff in QoS (including the fall in the Siena tower), while really fast paced, seemed a bit of a let down comparatively to me. If they can do CGI in a way that's not obvious, then I'm all for it, but I'm quite discerning in this regard.
    Yeah, the tower stuff was interesting to look at, but so over-done with the crazy angles. That type of CGI is better used in superhero flicks where suspension of disbelief is in play throughout the entire film.
    bondjames wrote: »
    I feel sorry for Cruise actually. Since there's so much CGI junk out there these days, I was actually doubting that he did that scene in the Dubai hotel in Mi4. I had to look it up because I thought to myself -- no way did he do that! Every time I rewatch the movie now I'm more impressed with that scene, knowing he was really up there.
    I like Cruise because he's insane. The very definition of great stuntpeople & actors.
    :))
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Birdleson wrote: »
    it was a far, far distance away in terms of subtlety and offensiveness from the CGI usage in DIE ANOTHER DAY.

    I found a deleted moment from DAD- I guess this was just a tad less acceptable than the para-surf scene...



    :))
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Birdleson wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I just remember being so happy because it seemed like they had learned their lesson and were returning to form without CGI - given that the immediately preceding film had the surfing scene.

    For me, it just brought back memories of the TSWLM jump, the MR jump & the GE opening jump. Stuntwork at its best courtesy of the franchise that brought us some of the best work in movies.
    .

    Me too. I was disappointed that CGI was used in such an obvious manner in the follow up film, as several of you have already mentioned. Still, it was a far, far distance away in terms of subtlety and offensiveness from the CGI usage in DIE ANOTHER DAY.

    Completely agree. It was a far cry from what they did in DAD. Some of us noticed it but it was not offensive. It sort of supplemented the stuntwork for the most part. I'm hoping for even more subtlety going forward, but as I said, I'm a little discerning (picky perhaps) when it comes to this.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    At least in QOS they 'fuzzed it up' a bit to try & hide its obviousness...
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Birdleson wrote: »
    And I prefer the Road Runner cartoon to the parasailing scene by a lightyear.
    YES! Agreement.
    :)>-
  • chrisisall wrote: »
    Nothing in a movie is worth a person's health or life, and if you have a soul, you would support as much CGI as possible in the movies.
    (Paid for by the Computer Generation Lobby)

    Hm, given that VFX artists have not much consideration from Hollywood, you should rather say "Paid for by Hollywood Studios" :)

    If you think VFX artists and stuntmen are "at war" with one another, well, IMO, no, they are both victims of Hollywood for years !

    And well, stuntmen are probably asked to perform as motion capture references for some of the effects.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Juste une blague.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited January 2015 Posts: 15,718
    There is worst CGI offense in the franchise than the surfing scene in DAD. Go check the bonus feature of DAD and watch that special effect woman patting herself on the back saying they created the most realistic-looking CGI scene that will stand the test of time. IMO that bonus feature makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a fork.
  • Posts: 2,341
    I guess this is the times we live in. CGI is the "in thing" Gone are the days of thousands of extras, well staged battle scenes, top notch stunts in Bond films. Imagine if they did a remake of the chariot race in "Ben Hur"...the Zulu attack in "Zulu" just to name a few, all of this would be thru the use of the wonderful CGI.

    CGI is here to stay and we can count on seeing it in Bond 24...
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    that bonus feature makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a fork.
    Please don't- it really hurts.
    :-O
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 5,767
    bondjames wrote: »
    I guess this is where we differ. I can't truly be in the moment in a scene that is obviously CGI.
    As long as it looks cool, I´m cool. But I agree that Hollywood should also listen to guys like you ;-).

    As far as that TDKR scene is concerned, I was in fact taken out of the experience, because of Bane´s voice sounding as if it were right inside my own head. What´s all that realism good for if a main character sounds as if he was poorly dubbed in?


    bondjames wrote: »
    That's very true, given what they were trying to achieve.
    What were they trying to achieve? As you say, coming away from certain CGI usage. Realism? Hardly. I know the term was used a lot during the promotion, but that´s nonsense, they just shifted the perception of realism. The crane scene is right at the start of the movie, so it´s part of the elements that set the tone for the film. There are some similar moments throughout the film, e.g. Bond going straight back to the table after having been zapped out of a cardiac arrest, or Bond pulling a 6 inch nail out of his shoulder.


    bondjames wrote: »
    For me, it just brought back memories of the TSWLM jump, the MR jump & the GE opening jump. Stuntwork at its best courtesy of the franchise that brought us some of the best work in movies.
    Talking about TSHLM, Strombergs institute rising out off the water shows certain limits of what can be done with models. Many elements are still breathtaking, but the water falling from the structure when it rises is one thing that always annoyed me, because the water just looks magnified and thus makes the structure rising out off it appear unreal. Perhaps CGI could have helped here.


    bondjames wrote: »
    I feel sorry for Cruise actually. Since there's so much CGI junk out there these days, I was actually doubting that he did that scene in the Dubai hotel in Mi4. I had to look it up because I thought to myself -- no way did he do that! Every time I rewatch the movie now I'm more impressed with that scene, knowing he was really up there.
    But if you didn´t see it was him doing it for real before, then what´s the point? If in a few years Cruise would say in an interview that he catually didn´t do it for real, would you then degrade the film? Shouldn´t the film by itself make you decide wether or not you like it?


    There is worst CGI offense in the franchise than the surfing scene in DAD. Go check the bonus feature of DAD and watch that special effect woman patting herself on the back saying they created the most realistic-looking CGI scene that will stand the test of time. IMO that bonus feature makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a fork.
    I may be wrong here, but IIRC she says that regarding the satellite, which in fact does look decent even 12 years later.



    OHMSS69 wrote: »
    I guess this is the times we live in. CGI is the "in thing" Gone are the days of thousands of extras, well staged battle scenes, top notch stunts in Bond films. Imagine if they did a remake of the chariot race in "Ben Hur"...the Zulu attack in "Zulu" just to name a few, all of this would be thru the use of the wonderful CGI.

    CGI is here to stay and we can count on seeing it in Bond 24...
    Exodus had some Ben Hur moments, which look fantastic. And the battle scenes in TLOTR couldn´t have been done without CGI. I even go as far as claiming that the CGI blood flying through the air in Gladiator makes the battle scenes look more realistic.



    Trying to refocuss on the thread title, the tube train crashing past Bond in SF looked worse than any CGI in that movie.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    @boldfinger,

    re: TDKR, I agree that Bane's voice in the plane sequence is very annoying. It's true that this messes up what could be a near perfect scene. However, I'm still awed by the way they filmed that scene in IMAX. I similarly am very impressed by the money theft/loss scene in Cliffhanger.

    re: CR and what they were trying to acheive - I was responding to @chrisisall's point that the crane sequence did not need to be so extravagant, given that they seemed to be shooting for a toned down thriller with CR. Some suspension of disbelief is required (i.e. about the quick recovery from poisoning) perhaps, since he's Bond, but the film did generally have a toned down quality.

    re: TSWLM - yes, no doubt there are limitations to models, but that scene is still very well done given it was 1977. I think it's much better than a lot of stuff that was out there at the time

    re: Cruise - when I saw the Dubai scene I remember thinking that CGI had come a really long way. I assumed it was CGI but I thought it was exceptional CGI. Once I knew he did it for real, I just had a new appreciation for it. Keep in mind that I really enjoy the China elevator scene in SF too (I did not realize it was CGI when I first saw it). Now, even though I know it's CGI, I still love it. It looks real to me and is suitably tense (with Patrice turning down when Bond grabs the elevator etc.). So I don't mind CGI, as long as I can't tell that it is CGI. I could tell about the bike and the fight on the train.

    Yes, agree, the crashing train in SF is rubbish on so many levels.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    chrisisall wrote: »
    that bonus feature makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a fork.
    Please don't- it really hurts.
    :-O

    Yet it's still not as bad for your eyes as watching the DAD parasurfing scene.

    That DVD extra is one of the funniest things ever. Some NZ bird who was clearly Tamahori's mate actually keeping a straight face as she says these things. They might be regarded as good FX in NZ love where the audience is mostly sheep are but in the rest of the world they're an embarrassment.

    Would be interesting to find out what she's doing now: 5/2: waiting tables, Evens: Hanged herself in shame, 1000/1: Still working in the FX business.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804

    Yet it's still not as bad for your eyes as watching the DAD parasurfing scene.

    Wait- he was hanging on the ice cliff, and I went to the bathroom & when I got back he was heading to his car... did I miss anything important?
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 5,767
    bondjames wrote: »
    @boldfinger,

    re: TDKR, I agree that Bane's voice in the plane sequence is very annoying. It's true that this messes up what could be a near perfect scene. However, I'm still awed by the way they filmed that scene in IMAX. I similarly am very impressed by the money theft/loss scene in Cliffhanger.

    re: CR and what they were trying to acheive - I was responding to @chrisisall's point that the crane sequence did not need to be so extravagant, given that they seemed to be shooting for a toned down thriller with CR. Some suspension of disbelief is required (i.e. about the quick recovery from poisoning) perhaps, since he's Bond, but the film did generally have a toned down quality.

    re: TSWLM - yes, no doubt there are limitations to models, but that scene is still very well done given it was 1977. I think it's much better than a lot of stuff that was out there at the time

    re: Cruise - when I saw the Dubai scene I remember thinking that CGI had come a really long way. I assumed it was CGI but I thought it was exceptional CGI. Once I knew he did it for real, I just had a new appreciation for it. Keep in mind that I really enjoy the China elevator scene in SF too (I did not realize it was CGI when I first saw it). Now, even though I know it's CGI, I still love it. It looks real to me and is suitably tense (with Patrice turning down when Bond grabs the elevator etc.). So I don't mind CGI, as long as I can't tell that it is CGI. I could tell about the bike and the fight on the train.

    Yes, agree, the crashing train in SF is rubbish on so many levels.
    Ok, I think I get what you mean now.
    A technical question, and I´m not trying to contradict you here: I never thought much of and about IMAX, so forgive my lack of education, but what is it that makes you awed by that scene being filmed in IMAX? If you have a br frame cut off at the sides, wouldn´t that be the same?
    I love how they make the plane into pieces. Without the bleakness of light and colours, and with all the voices sounding natural, I would have that scene in any Bond film without thinking, no matter how ripped-off from LTK it might be. I wouldn´t have had any problem if Bane´s voice would have been partly unintelligible, just the opposite, it would have made him even meaner.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Keep in mind I'm not a technical guy at all.

    I was just very impressed with the opening heist scene of TDK which was filmed in IMAX - it was super sharp in the large IMAX theatre in which I initially saw the film. The same thing with the TDKR scenes that were filmed in IMAX. They just looked better imo because everything got bigger on screen without losing resolution (in fact I think the resolution is actually enhanced, or at least it seems that way to me - like a super sharp zoom-in). When I later learned how heavy these cameras are, I had even more appreciation for what they must have gone through to film these scenes.

    In the theatre, and on my BR copy, the scene is not cut off on the sides though. It just gets bigger (like a zoom-in but without cutting off the top). It's like a full screen shot without cropping. I did enjoy SF in the IMAX theatre as well mind you so I'm not advocating for IMAX cameras necessarily.
  • TigerTanakaTigerTanaka Welcome to Japan, Mr. Bond
    Posts: 50
    There is worst CGI offense in the franchise than the surfing scene in DAD. Go check the bonus feature of DAD and watch that special effect woman patting herself on the back saying they created the most realistic-looking CGI scene that will stand the test of time. IMO that bonus feature makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a fork.

    Totally agree with you :)

  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited January 2015 Posts: 5,080
    chrisisall wrote: »
    that bonus feature makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a fork.
    Please don't- it really hurts.
    :-O

    Yet it's still not as bad for your eyes as watching the DAD parasurfing scene.

    That DVD extra is one of the funniest things ever. Some NZ bird who was clearly Tamahori's mate actually keeping a straight face as she says these things. They might be regarded as good FX in NZ love where the audience is mostly sheep are but in the rest of the world they're an embarrassment.

    Would be interesting to find out what she's doing now: 5/2: waiting tables, Evens: Hanged herself in shame, 1000/1: Still working in the FX business.

    I'm must see this. Is it included on the Bond 50 DAD disc?

    Edit: This must be it-

    Absolutely golden.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    chrisisall wrote: »
    that bonus feature makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a fork.
    Please don't- it really hurts.
    :-O

    Yet it's still not as bad for your eyes as watching the DAD parasurfing scene.

    That DVD extra is one of the funniest things ever. Some NZ bird who was clearly Tamahori's mate actually keeping a straight face as she says these things. They might be regarded as good FX in NZ love where the audience is mostly sheep are but in the rest of the world they're an embarrassment.

    Would be interesting to find out what she's doing now: 5/2: waiting tables, Evens: Hanged herself in shame, 1000/1: Still working in the FX business.

    I'm must see this. Is it included on the Bond 50 DAD disc?

    Edit: This must be it-

    Absolutely golden.

    Priceless: 06.21 'It is absolutely stupendous.'

    I hope those words are engraved on your headstone.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804

    Priceless: 06.21 'It is absolutely stupendous.'

    I hope those words are engraved on your headstone.
    She seems most impressed with herself. And why not? Those are some nice graphics for a 20th Century video game.
    8-}
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 2,015
    Gee.. on this bonus, anything remotely critical of the end product is forbidden. She was asked to explain how great everything is... Expect to hear on the Spectre bonus how everyone thinks Logan wrote a great script !

    And well, this woman continued to work for the movies, including for some movie with blue aliens by James Cameron, and for years she had the job some of you here dream of : reading screenplays after screenplays to estimate the cost of VFX...
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    this woman continued to work for the movies, including for some movie with blue aliens by James Cameron
    THAT explains it!

  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,220
    The digital replacing of the faces of the stunt performers was dodgy at best. Take a look at how to do it right NOTE: POSSIBLE LOGAN SPOILERS

    http://www.cartoonbrew.com/vfx/cg-actors-logan-never-knew-149013.html
  • Jazz007Jazz007 Minnesota
    Posts: 257
    I didn't find the CGI in SF as noticeable as that in QOS, where the dogfight scene was clearly nearly all CGI and really took me out of the film for a minute.

    The dragons were convincing - not real for sure and therefore not matching up to the crocodile scenes in LALD (which they were obviously trying to pay homage to); honestly never noticed if the helicopters were real.... Figured the dentures scene was CGI but that was definitely convincing. Mountains out of mole hills here, I think.
  • Posts: 19,339
    I dont find any problem with CGI in SF...i think it was handled very well,as it was with the mouse in SP...
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    I have a fairly ok cgi pick up skill, it's quite annoying in skyfall especially in the bike chase close ups
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    The CGI is pretty great compared to how other films use it. It's noticeable at times, but there's other moments where it's used and I didn't find out what I was seeing wasn't real until I read behind the scenes articles on the movies' effects.

    I think the facial replacement is just the modern version of the back projection. Just like in the old days, EON want us to think we're seeing the actors do these crazy things, even though we really don't. That being said, I would rather have the facial replacement (though CR proved it wasn't needed) than constant cuts to a Bond actor in front of a choppy screen that really got out of hand in YOLT and OHMSS.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    That's what I'm saying they got by fine in CR and qos - no need to use it in SPECTRE and skyfall
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,220
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I dont find any problem with CGI in SF...i think it was handled very well,as it was with the mouse in SP...

    The faces during the motorcycle chase often look pasted on.

  • Posts: 19,339
    I must admit i have noticed that only fleetingly ,but i find that underwhelming anyway so i usually grab a drink or something to eat when that is on haha
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