Most dramatic shift in tone between Bond films?

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  • Posts: 19,339
    Yes it was.
    I remember i watched TLD at the Odeon Leicester Square and i liked Dalton as Bond but having grown up with Sir Roger it was a total change and took a lot of getting used to,plus i used to think it was very luvvy duvvy in parts,all kissing and cuddling etc.

    I was 17 and after AVTAK it was a big difference.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Murdock wrote:
    OHMSS to DAF and TWINE to DAD.

    Yes. I always thought that DAD was rather an outcast in the Brosnan films, when I first saw it. There was something strange about it. The first half was relatively dark and erm, Flemingesque, and the second half was bloated and sci-fi, whilst the other Brosnan era films were much more consistent.

    YOLT - OHMSS
    OHMSS - DAF
    MR - FYEO
    AVTAK - TLD

    and DAD - CR.
  • Posts: 2,341
    I did not find the shift between AVTAK and TLD to be that radical. TLD has a lot of Moore elements to it: weak villains, humor, gadgetry. Dalton makes it seem like a radical change in tone but it wasn't that large.

    OHMSS-DAF
    DAD-CR
    These shifts are much more significant
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    True that TLD has a lot of Moore elements to it, but I was going of the fact that we have a much more dynamic Bond than the films preceding it.
  • LTK-GE
    Licence to Kill was a very dark, very heavy film that felt very mature, almost to a fault.
    Though goldeneye does have some dark plot lines, I always found it to be rather juvenile (I.e. Xenia, tank chase, Boris). To me GE felt like some 13 year old boys tried to make a serious film. I thought the scene on the beach with Natalya criticizing bond was totally shoehorned in. I also felt that the film screwed up Alec Trevelyan by introducing the Cossack revenge angle. I thought it would have been perfectly fine for for him as a former double-O realizing he can use the satellite to get rich. The Cossack angle diluted his character. I enjoy the heck out of GE but what keeps it out of my top tier is that other films in the series feel more polished and professionally made-it has a juvenile feel after the adult feel of LTK
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 11,189
    I do see your point @hilderbrand_rarity. Compared to LTK GE does feel quite "lite". That said I do think GE has a bit more joie de vivre to it, something that's important in Bond...and something lacking in LTK.

    I enjoy LTK but I think it does suffer at times from being too grim.
  • Posts: 15,125
    LTK-GE
    Licence to Kill was a very dark, very heavy film that felt very mature, almost to a fault.
    Though goldeneye does have some dark plot lines, I always found it to be rather juvenile (I.e. Xenia, tank chase, Boris). To me GE felt like some 13 year old boys tried to make a serious film. I thought the scene on the beach with Natalya criticizing bond was totally shoehorned in. I also felt that the film screwed up Alec Trevelyan by introducing the Cossack revenge angle. I thought it would have been perfectly fine for for him as a former double-O realizing he can use the satellite to get rich. The Cossack angle diluted his character. I enjoy the heck out of GE but what keeps it out of my top tier is that other films in the series feel more polished and professionally made-it has a juvenile feel after the adult feel of LTK

    The Cossack angle was a good one, I think, but Sean Bean was far too young to have such background.
  • Posts: 2,341
    LTK-GE
    Licence to Kill was a very dark, very heavy film that felt very mature, almost to a fault.
    Though goldeneye does have some dark plot lines, I always found it to be rather juvenile (I.e. Xenia, tank chase, Boris). To me GE felt like some 13 year old boys tried to make a serious film. I thought the scene on the beach with Natalya criticizing bond was totally shoehorned in. I also felt that the film screwed up Alec Trevelyan by introducing the Cossack revenge angle. I thought it would have been perfectly fine for for him as a former double-O realizing he can use the satellite to get rich. The Cossack angle diluted his character. I enjoy the heck out of GE but what keeps it out of my top tier is that other films in the series feel more polished and professionally made-it has a juvenile feel after the adult feel of LTK

    I think you are spot on Brother! We usually get nothing but praise for GE and while I consider it to be best Brosnan film, but it does have its faults and you touched up on them quite nicely. Like it or not, we do see the beginnings of problems that would track the Brosnan films like a tomahawk cruise missile: Eon is playing it way too safe.
  • Posts: 11,189
    What do people think about QoS to Skyfall? I've heard the argument several times that SF returns to "silly Bond" after the adult QoS. Personally I don't agree.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    barryt007 wrote:
    Why LTK to GE ? I wouldnt say that this is more of a change than OHMSS-DAF ,DAD-CR or MR-FYEO .
    Just curious.

    It depends did you see LTK in 1989 on release then waited till 1995 for G.E? If you didn't you won't understand.

    I know GE is looked at as Pierce's grittiest and darkest film but to me although I think it's his best I don't like it and it was like having Fleming's Bond for 2 films then going back to the RM era again, I admit there was a tonal shift in from GE - TND but the difference between 1989-95 was significant for me.

    I haven't been playing catch up on Bond since 1977.

  • edited February 2014 Posts: 11,189
    I think Barry did - I was talking about it with him a few days ago. He's one of the older fans. Its funny, Ive talked to one or two other people on here who saw LTK on release...and came out a bit disappointed (Wizard and Bondsum).
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Next to the reboot, LTK-GE is my second choice.Then OHMSS-DAF.
    You could also include TB-YOLT. From the wonderful fantasy of Fleming to the less wonderful fantasy of Roald Dahl. I wonder if they would have gone that route had Fleming still been around.
  • Posts: 2,341
    @Thunderfinger
    I doubt they would have cared with Fleming thought. He was not thrilled with Sean Connery, thinking he was just a good looking stuntman. Cubby and Salzman were gonna do whatever they were pleased.

    TB-YOLT was not much of a jump. We see the continuation of the proliferation of handy gadgets while Bond is reduced to a bland dummy whose purpose is to act as a catalyst and manipulate the gadgets.

    A footnote:
    notice how in GF when the gadgets first began to be "cute" none of them ever really helped Bond much. The car after leading Oddjob and his cohorts on a merry chase gets run off the road and crashes leading to Bond's capture and near death.
    The homing device he tried to use to alert the CIA of Goldfinger's plan and this went to shit as well.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    BAIN123 wrote:
    What do people think about QoS to Skyfall? I've heard the argument several times that SF returns to "silly Bond" after the adult QoS. Personally I don't agree.
    Despite its many flaws I felt QOS was a deadly serious Bond film much like LTK. SF was back in TB territory (not altogether a bad thing).
  • chrisisall wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    What do people think about QoS to Skyfall? I've heard the argument several times that SF returns to "silly Bond" after the adult QoS. Personally I don't agree.
    Despite its many flaws I felt QOS was a deadly serious Bond film much like LTK. SF was back in TB territory (not altogether a bad thing).

    Well said. As far a GE goes, at least there were dark moments as mentioned above. Perhaps there were Timothy Dalton-minded script items left in tact such as the moment where Alec reveals himself and when Bond is with Natalia at the beach in a poorly-acted scene with the nicest backdrop. SF really shocked me when it denied the events of QoS and referenced GE. For some of us fans, LTK never had a true sequel or one that carried over much besides Q.
  • BAIN123 wrote:
    I do see your point @hilderbrand_rarity. Compared to LTK GE does feel quite "lite". That said I do think GE has a bit more joie de vivre to it, something that's important in Bond...and something lacking in LTK.

    I enjoy LTK but I think it does suffer at times from being too grim.
  • BAIN123 wrote:
    I do see your point @hilderbrand_rarity. Compared to LTK GE does feel quite "lite". That said I do think GE has a bit more joie de vivre to it, something that's important in Bond...and something lacking in LTK.

    I enjoy LTK but I think it does suffer at times from being too grim.
  • Sorry!
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 19,339
    DOUBLE POST
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 19,339
    Shardlake wrote:
    barryt007 wrote:
    Why LTK to GE ? I wouldnt say that this is more of a change than OHMSS-DAF ,DAD-CR or MR-FYEO .
    Just curious.

    It depends did you see LTK in 1989 on release then waited till 1995 for G.E? If you didn't you won't understand.

    Yes i saw both several times at the cinema and,unfortunately,didnt feel what you felt,which is why i questioned the validity of it.

    Oh,and @BAIN123 on a personal note i actually came out of the cinema after LTK with a lot more optimism re Timothy Dalton and thought his performance was more relaxed and the film way way superior to TLD.

    Looks like i was the kiss of death for him,as that film was his last !!


  • edited February 2014 Posts: 19,339
    Aaah double bloody post again....cant we get a delete function peeps ??!!
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 2014 Posts: 18,281
    For this I would say that the most dramatic shift in tone between Bond films would have to be YOLT to OHMSS, OHMSS to DAF, MR to FYEO and of course DAD to CR. No surprises there methinks.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited February 2014 Posts: 13,355
    SF really shocked me when it denied the events of QoS and referenced GE.

    Did it really deny what happened in Quantum Of Solace? I don't think so, it just moved the timeline on somewhat.

    What reference to GoldenEye are you referring to? I bet you, you could find in each film, references to another it you wanted to as there are so many.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I suspect a typo, and that he meant GF.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited February 2014 Posts: 13,355
    Oh, the machine guns on the car? Well, it's all one series so anything is able to and can happen I suppose.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Samuel001 wrote:
    SF really shocked me when it denied the events of QoS and referenced GE.

    Did it really deny what happened in Quantum Of Solace? I don't think so, it just moved the timeline on somewhat.

    What reference to GoldenEye are you referring to? I bet you, you could find in each film, references to another it you wanted to as there are so many.

    I also wondered what this was in reference to, @dramaticscenesofQOS ?
  • Posts: 11,189
    Samuel001 wrote:
    SF really shocked me when it denied the events of QoS and referenced GE.

    Did it really deny what happened in Quantum Of Solace? I don't think so, it just moved the timeline on somewhat.

    What reference to GoldenEye are you referring to? I bet you, you could find in each film, references to another it you wanted to as there are so many.

    He means the reference to the exploding pen. I remember I was quite surprised when I first heard that...but in a good way.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Ive never linked that with GE,i just thought Q was being generally flippant about old English spying techniques.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    Quite. It being just one of the many silly gadgets of the past that have become part of Bond history. The old-fashioned ways are long gone.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Maybe its just because GE is in my blood that I immediately thought of it ;)
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