Is LICENCE TO KILL the edgiest Bond film?

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Comments

  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,400
    I will agree to disagree. I find it to be a rather dramatic attempt to shake things up but to say it's edgy? No, not by my measure. It's a different take on the character. I find it's a poor attempt to shake things up. We have a director who is on auto pilot and thinks showing slow motion running on the tarmac is cinematic. We have a Leiter who looks way older then Bond. We have no emotional interest in his being mauled. Even at the end Felix is all cheery and jokes with Bond. Forgive me he's lost a limb and his wife but I don't think it would be all jokes from the hospital bed.

    That's why it's not edgy. It pulls it's punches. This film demanded an unhappy ending and yet we have jokes and a man jumping into a pool to smile and laugh with the girl? No this film fails to deliver an edge.
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 2,914
    thedove wrote: »
    I find it to be a rather dramatic attempt to shake things up but to say it's edgy?

    Well, that would be part of why it's edgy, along with its unprecedented levels of violence and realism.
    We have a director who is on auto pilot and thinks showing slow motion running on the tarmac is cinematic.

    I'm not a fan of that bit, but slow-mo running shots were fashionable well into the 1990s. And Glen's direction is far more lively in LTK than in AVTAK, which is probably why he considered LTK his best Bond film.
    This film demanded an unhappy ending and yet we have jokes and a man jumping into a pool to smile and laugh with the girl? No this film fails to deliver an edge.

    I think everyone agrees that the tone of the last conversation with Felix should have been more sombre, because it doesn't jive with the rest of the film.
    But for Bond this is and should be a relatively happy ending: he's completely defeated the villain, liberated an entire country, avenged Felix and Della, and has two women panting after him. So the ending can't be that of OHMSS or CR (the book rather than the film, which arguably "pulled its punches" by ending with Bond triumphant over a bad guy). We probably should have seen a bit more Felix of mourning Della and less of his desire to go fishing (ouch!), but he must have been happy to know that his friend avenged him so well.

    Obviously LTK is still a divisive title in Bond fandom, and it has its share of faults, but even if one dislikes the film it's still possible to grant that it was edgier than its predecessors and paved the way for the Craig era.
  • Posts: 7,507
    I am of the strong opinion that LTK has the best plot in the series. It has everything I want from a Bond plot: Bond having to demonstrate real intelligence and wit and work undercover as a spy to achieve his goal. Not enough of the films are like this.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    I like Licence To Kill, but I can't help but think...Maybe if Dalton did more Bond films, Licence To Kill won't be this Polarizing...even today.I also like Dalton's Bond(Who Doesn't)....but as Good as he was, he never really wanted to play Bond...which hurts me till date. Dalton needed at least 4 Bond films.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,195
    I like LTK, and in many ways it is one of the edgiest of the Bond films ; unfortunately it’s undermined by too many elements, particularly the cinematography, that give it the feel of a made for TV film.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,400
    I guess it is polarizing. When I think of edgy I think of two things:
    1. either its a uniquely shot film that shows a new art to cinema. It takes the art form to another level. I think of films that push the envelope of cinema
    2. Or it has violence and sex galore. It pushes the envelope in terms of it's content. Its tough to watch, or it is so far out there that it's like a car accident and you don't want to watch but watch it anyway.

    LTK is neither of those things. It pushes no cinematic envelope and it certainly isn't over the top in terms of content. The direction is un-inspired. The producers wasted away the chance to do something interesting with the whole Felix affair. I think the film pulls it punch at the end. I think the script is dark and then we have this happy ending! Bond frolicking in a pool with Pam. Felix thinking of fishing? Nope this deserved Bond visiting Felix in the hospital sharing a moment of tears and sombre feelings.

    This movie is trying to be dark and then it stops short and gives us a happy ending. Doesn't fit the tone.

    But some here think edgy is one movie that doesn't have a typical M or Moneypenny scene. Then explain why Q of all people comes out to help Bond with the gadgets no less. Why not send out someone else? Money penny thinks Q is going to be able to help Bond get the bad guy? Yes that's really edgy. LOL!

  • edited April 2020 Posts: 2,914
    thedove wrote: »
    I guess it is polarizing. When I think of edgy I think of two things:
    [*] either its a uniquely shot film that shows a new art to cinema. It takes the art form to another level. I think of films that push the envelope of cinema

    I have to admit that is not what comes to my mind when I think of "edgy." And if that was my definition, then no Bond film would qualify as edgy, because the series has never pushed the envelope of cinema.

    But if we were to view edginess only in the context of the Bond series, than the Bond films that push the envelope are those that push against the usual Bond formula. In that sense, OHMSS, LTK, and CR are all "edgy."
    Or it has violence and sex galore. It pushes the envelope in terms of it's content. Its tough to watch, or it is so far out there that it's like a car accident and you don't want to watch but watch it anyway.

    That is more like the definition I had in mind. Edginess does necessarily equal artistic quality. LTK is not one of the edgiest films in the history of cinema, but its violence and storyline were more hard-edged and realistic than those of the preceding Bond films.
    The producers wasted away the chance to do something interesting with the whole Felix affair. I think the film pulls it punch at the end.

    A pulled punch does not equal a wasted opportunity. The fact that a dark film lightens a bit too much at its very end doesn't invalidate darkness of the rest of the film. The film is not about Felix--his tragedy exists to get the plot rolling and give Bond motivation against Sanchez.
    Nope this deserved Bond visiting Felix in the hospital sharing a moment of tears and sombre feelings.

    No, the film just deserved a less jaunty phone call, with a few more lines of sentiment, and perhaps a shot of Felix looking wistfully at Della's portrait as he speaks. A teary hospital-side visit would have been overkill. Fleming did not see the need for it in LALD.
    But some here think edgy is one movie that doesn't have a typical M or Moneypenny scene. Then explain why Q of all people comes out to help Bond with the gadgets no less. Why not send out someone else? Moneypenny thinks Q is going to be able to help Bond get the bad guy?

    Well, isn't that what Q did? Q's appearance in LTK is not a typical Q scene by any means. He appears onscreen longer than before and he does more to help Bond in any other Bond film--he's not just there to explain a gadget. And it's free of the usual Bond-Q teasing/bickering. Q tells Bond to his face that without Q Branch he'd have been dead long ago. All this is not "edgy" in itself. But it is a genuine departure from the usual formula.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Edgy or not edgy, too light ending or not, LTK is the best action film in the series together with CR and one of the best Bond films outright.
  • Posts: 3,327
    I'd say LTK is one of the edgiest films. At the time of its release the censors had to cut bits off it due to the violence, and also gave it a higher certificate rating (I think it was the first time ever for a Bond film). There is a nasty underlying tone throughout the whole movie.

    It was also the first time we would see Bond bloodied and battered, and we wouldn't see this again until CR and then QoS.

    All 3 of these films are the edgiest in the franchise. No others come even close.
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 3,327
    thedove wrote: »
    Edgiest Bond film? Not for the time period. Much more gore and sex going on in other films of the time. I would say it's rather tame stuff. Hardly no sex in this film and the violence is more implied then shown.

    I would actually say TB is way edgier. Guys getting harpoons though the head. Fiona and Bond in bed where it's clear Bond is servicing her. Even the mink glove.

    No LTK is not the edgiest Bond. Definitely the one that doesn't have many (if any) of the tropes of the series. But not the edgiest.

    You think TB is edgier than LTK. And not just edgier, but `way edgier'? You think it is more violent? Really?

    The harpoon in the head is cartoon violence, played out for a laugh, especially with Bond's one liner. This feels more like it belongs to a 70's Roger Moore film.

    The violence in LTK was so much that the censors had to get their scissors out, and had to push the film to a 15 certificate (the first time ever for a Bond film). We also get Bond harpooning a villain in LTK too, but a whole lot more besides - heads explode, women get whipped, men's hearts get ripped out, Felix gets half eaten by a shark, Sanchez gets set on fire, Dario gets stone crushed to death, blood pours from any injury.

    The word `bastard' gets thrown around frequently too, along with other curse words. I don't recall any bad language in a Bond film until LTK.

    TB didn't require any censoring or certificate grade measures, and I don't recall one drop of blood being shown throughout the entire film. TB is many things - stylish 60's cool, Connery at his peak, dull lengthy underwater scenes that drag, silly speeded up editing, but being violent or edgy is definitely not one of them.
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 11,425
    DAD is the edgiest for me. Crazy crazy film making. It's like everyone was on drugs.
  • Posts: 7,407
    Getafix wrote: »
    DAD is the edgiest for me. Crazy crazy film making. It's like everyone was on drugs.

    You certainly need to be on them to watch it!!!
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    Getafix wrote: »
    DAD is the edgiest for me. Crazy crazy film making. It's like everyone was on drugs.

    :))
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    DAD is the edgiest for me. Crazy crazy film making. It's like everyone was on drugs.

    You certainly need to be on them to watch it!!!

    =))
  • Posts: 4,408
    LTK is cool. Albeit a little 'off its time.' It has a slightly camp, dated 1980's vibe.....but I kinda dig it for want of having that aesthetic. It makes for an interesting time capsule. Though it may not have aged as well visually as those films from the 1960's.

    Also, Talisa Soto....

    6dede23b67833e506f50d609758f9f0b.jpg
    e6fe7ca8da2d45a2c48420406e343b8e.jpg
    EEf18aZXYAUI0OQ.jpg

    I do hate her whole 'I love James, so much' line. It's so corny. She was such an convincing character before that point.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    One of the edgiest for sure and also one of the coolest... loving the vibe, the plot and the locations.
  • Posts: 11,425
    LTK is cool. Albeit a little 'off its time.' It has a slightly camp, dated 1980's vibe.....but I kinda dig it for want of having that aesthetic. It makes for an interesting time capsule. Though it may not have aged as well visually as those films from the 1960's.

    Also, Talisa Soto....

    6dede23b67833e506f50d609758f9f0b.jpg
    e6fe7ca8da2d45a2c48420406e343b8e.jpg
    EEf18aZXYAUI0OQ.jpg

    I do hate her whole 'I love James, so much' line. It's so corny. She was such an convincing character before that point.

    It's not really about the character though is it...
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    'You earned it, You keep it old Buddy!'.......'You'd Better find yourself a New Lover'.....'Compliments of Sharkey!'.........'More of a Problem Eliminator'......'Watch the Birdie, you B*****d'......'Don't You want to know why?'

    I can't recall Seeing or Hearing Bond this Angry....so there's definitely an Edginess & Intensity there. True, in terms of it's Cinematography, it's not the most Visually Striking Bond film.....but I can live with that, maybe it was done on purpose to fit it's more intimate Narrative. I know it Sounds Minor, but I still believe a John Barry Score would have taken the film a Notch Higher.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205

    I do hate her whole 'I love James, so much' line. It's so corny. She was such an convincing character before that point.

    That was the point. It's why it's made fun of about ten seconds later.

    She's a shallow character, trying to convince Q of her sincerity.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,400
    Bond bleeds and this is edgy? Wow the bar is low for lots of people on here. I will agree to disagree. By the way TB had to be edited to achieve it's rating and while now a days it looks tame.

    Look at the underwater battle at the end and tell me it's cartoonish.

    I have a different view of what edgy is and LTK does not meet the criteria. If you think it's edgy that's fine, that is what makes the world go around.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    Edgy to me is enhanced violence and adult themes, so I think LTK is certainly edgier than your average Bond. But in terms of performance, I think Dalton and Craig are the edgiest Bonds. Connery never felt too edgy, save for the odd sequence like the laser table in Goldfinger; he was too cool under fire.

    Just my two cents on it.
  • Posts: 1,916
    A few thoughts:

    -Seeing the teaser trailer to LTK in December of '88 before Rain Man did give the vibe that this wasn't the action comedy Bonds of the Moore era. It intrigued with the maiming of Felix and a shaken Bond first and THEN the requisite action and romance scenes. That was enough to say this Bond was different and more edgy than anything that had come before it.

    -TB does have some rather graphic and unsettling violence. The authors of the book Kiss Kiss Bang Bang mention it in their review along the lines of this is not comic strip Bond fun, this is nasty stuff. LTK takes it to a more consistent level and a grimmer tone.

    -I may be the only one to be fine with Felix smiling at the end. Revelator had some good suggestions with what could've made it more palatable, but given the hell the man went through is he not entitled to have a smile or laugh, probably not expecting it and coming as a welcome distraction from what his life has become?

    -I would argue that the Bond series did push the envelope in cinema back in '62, setting a new standard for action; inspiring a whole new genre everybody scrambled to imitate; a hero who had a license to kill, an new breed of anti-hero; it also brought about a new type of editing, inspiring some cinema highbrow type to claim this was someday how all movies would be made.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited May 2020 Posts: 18,264
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    DAD is the edgiest for me. Crazy crazy film making. It's like everyone was on drugs.

    You certainly need to be on them to watch it!!!

    Well you need something to take the edge off, that's for sure! ;)
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 3,327
    thedove wrote: »
    Bond bleeds and this is edgy? Wow the bar is low for lots of people on here.
    Not really. Its not just Bond bleeding, its the entire tone of the movie itself. There is an underlying nastiness to its all, and it was the very first time we saw Bond go rogue and display uncontrolled emotions of revenge and anger in Dalton's performance, when audiences had grown up with expectations of light-hearted tongue-in-cheek romps by Roger Moore for over a decade. It was a huge shift in tone.

    thedove wrote: »
    Look at the underwater battle at the end and tell me it's cartoonish.
    No, definitely not cartoonish. Dull as dishwater maybe, slow as watching paint dry, yes. Probably the dullest `action' scenes ever seen in a Bond film, but certainly not cartoonish. There is nothing funny about those painful scenes.

    thedove wrote: »
    I have a different view of what edgy is and LTK does not meet the criteria. If you think it's edgy that's fine, that is what makes the world go around.
    Fair enough mate. One mans meat is another mans poison and all that.

    Peace.

    B-)
  • Posts: 11,425
    I'm not sure any Bond film is truly edgy
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 4,408
    Getafix wrote: »
    I'm not sure any Bond film is truly edgy

    I think 'edgy' means breaking the rules. Being provocative and iconoclastic, whilst being cool. I think LTK fits that category. It's obviously not a Gaspar Noe film, but it's a little more bolder and braver than other entries for want of toying with the ingredients.....of course, this is all in the benefit of hindsight and viewing the Bond oeuvre as a whole. At the time, the film was made to placate American audiences. But I feel it has grown in stature since and narratively aged very well.
    Getafix wrote: »
    LTK is cool. Albeit a little 'off its time.' It has a slightly camp, dated 1980's vibe.....but I kinda dig it for want of having that aesthetic. It makes for an interesting time capsule. Though it may not have aged as well visually as those films from the 1960's.

    Also, Talisa Soto....

    6dede23b67833e506f50d609758f9f0b.jpg
    e6fe7ca8da2d45a2c48420406e343b8e.jpg
    EEf18aZXYAUI0OQ.jpg

    I do hate her whole 'I love James, so much' line. It's so corny. She was such an convincing character before that point.

    It's not really about the character though is it...

    Whatever do you mean....😅😅😅

    21.jpg
  • Posts: 17,744
    In my view, LTK is a film that no doubt tries to be edgy (depending on ones definition on what can be considered so) or darker, yet they couldn't find themselves to take it all the way, instead including some very "safe" lighthearted scenes:

    q.png

    It's a film that has one foot in the very dark side of Bond, and one in the other.
  • Posts: 1,916
    I know a lot of people point to the Q scenes as well as the Leiter laughing at the end scenes as examples of a film that won't completely commit to its intentions, but you really couldn't just go all the way with that back in '89.

    The Q scene at least isn't just a pointless cameo like the Monepenny one. And like so many other Q appearances, he's not just there in the field to give Bond a gadget and demonstrate it and disappear. They make him a part of the action and he's not just the butt of jokes, there's a nice display of mutual respect.

    I can think of other examples of films in the series where the intention was to go one way and gave in in a much more glaring way than LTK.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,108
    I absolutely love Q's inclusion in LTK. It is Desmond's finest hour in the franchise too.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,400
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I absolutely love Q's inclusion in LTK. It is Desmond's finest hour in the franchise too.

    Desmond is better in small doses. The character shouldn't be out helping Bond in the field. It makes no sense. I find it funny that SP gets slogged for having the "Mi6 gang" help out and in this movie it's "the finest hour", it's needed to take the edge off.

    I guess one defends the sins when one likes the film.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    I think it's important to point out that many of the shows and films that LTK often gets accussed of aping had similar moments of levity, too - despite being gritty for the most part.
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