TWINE: Did Brosnan offer a definitive characterisation of 007?

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  • TND and TWINE are probably the most unremarkable looking films of the series, down to art direction and photography. When doing screencap comparisons for the 4K thread, it really struck me how flat the films looked. Nothing really "pops". Contrast that with GE, which had a great noir look to it with the use of shadows and DAD for as plasticy looking it was at times it at least had some vibrancy.

    I disagree....I think the art direction, sets and costumes have a great real world texture. The film has a really rustic, live-in look and mood. Which is very fitting for the locations and politically-tinged story.

    It deliberately scaled back on the 'glamour' - Apted was tuning into his documentarian instincts...

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Blech.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    Blech.

    My thoughts exactly.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    TND and TWINE are probably the most unremarkable looking films of the series, down to art direction and photography. When doing screencap comparisons for the 4K thread, it really struck me how flat the films looked. Nothing really "pops". Contrast that with GE, which had a great noir look to it with the use of shadows and DAD for as plasticy looking it was at times it at least had some vibrancy.

    I disagree....I think the art direction, sets and costumes have a great real world texture. The film has a really rustic, live-in look and mood. Which is very fitting for the locations and politically-tinged story.

    It deliberately scaled back on the 'glamour' - Apted was tuning into his documentarian instincts...

    The-World-is-not-Enough-0469.jpg
    The-World-is-not-Enough-1079.jpg
    The-World-is-not-Enough-1091.jpg
    The-World-is-not-Enough-1183.jpg
    The-World-is-not-Enough-0312.jpg

    Yeah, I never got on board with this particular criticism. It's less shiney and glamorous for sure, but I like it nonetheless. Works pretty well in the film, I agree.

    As for TND, it has a sleek techno vibe in a good chunk of its imagery which I enjoy immensely. Though, admittedly the second half of the film is not quite as visually interesting as the first. Still a very enjoyable 90s action blockbuster, though.

    I find the Brosnan films far more visually appealing than a good chunk of the Glen era. I think we've just been spoiled with the Craig's era's excellence in the cinematography department so much that a lot of the more recent prior stuff pales in comparison, which is understandable.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Bits of TND look okay. It was the first attempt to update the look and feel to the 90s IMO. GE has an incredibly 80s vibe to it.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    I agree with some of the sentiments. I still think Terence Young and Lewis Gilbert set the gold standards for Bond cinematography in their respective films, whether you like them or not.

    And again, whether you like them or not, there is a distinct lack of flair during the Glen Bond films, in this regard.

    I still don't think anything looks, or feels as drab as TWINE, though. The whole production feels tired. You can understand why EON decided to completely go the other way with DAD, successful, or not.
  • edited January 2020 Posts: 11,425
    TWINE is such a weird film. The most beige Bond film. Apted was probably the most inappropriate director in the history of the series.

    You really got the sense back then that they were having to beg people to direct the films.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    As critical as I've been of Apted direction in TWINE, at the time he made sense as a choice because his background was mainly drama and thrillers, and TWINE was supposed to be Brosnan's OHMSS after the more excessive spectacle of TND. He had plenty of acclaimed films prior to TWINE, and would still have a few well after. It's just one of those instances where the seemingly right ingredients didn't work well together as expected.

    The most baffling thing about TWINE's pre-production period was that Joe Dante was offered the gig. I love that director and the work he's done, but EON handpicking him for TWINE of all films just makes no sense given his background. I would have loved to see what Dante would do if he thought he could offer something, but not with TWINE.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    edited January 2020 Posts: 1,081
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I agree with some of the sentiments. I still think Terence Young and Lewis Gilbert set the gold standards for Bond cinematography in their respective films, whether you like them or not.

    And again, whether you like them or not, there is a distinct lack of flair during the Glen Bond films, in this regard.

    I still don't think anything looks, or feels as drab as TWINE, though. The whole production feels tired. You can understand why EON decided to completely go the other way with DAD, successful, or not.

    Watching DAD is what I imagine being on LCD would be like. Watching TWINE is what I imagine being in a coma would be like.

    I agree that the Glen films look stark in comparison to the films of Young, Hunt and Gilbert. CR was a return to form, but SP was awful.

    Based upon the trailer of NTTD we can hopefully expect a film that brings back the vibrancy of those 60’s films.
  • Posts: 11,425
    SE?
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    Getafix wrote: »
    SE?
    Spectre 😂

    It’s been a long day.
  • Posts: 1,917
    The most baffling thing about TWINE's pre-production period was that Joe Dante was offered the gig. I love that director and the work he's done, but EON handpicking him for TWINE of all films just makes no sense given his background. I would have loved to see what Dante would do if he thought he could offer something, but not with TWINE.

    Wow, I've never heard that before. Intriguing. An odd consideration given the producers' aversion to using American directors at the time.

    Agreed it wouldn't have made any sense for TWINE, but I also would like to see what he could've done.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Getafix wrote: »
    Bits of TND look okay. It was the first attempt to update the look and feel to the 90s IMO. GE has an incredibly 80s vibe to it.

    +1. That’s why it’s Brosnan’s best. The 90’s were crap in terms of style.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    TND was shot by a DP who’s done great work outside of Bond. Got an Oscar win for THERE WILL BE BLOOD. Even BOOGIE NIGHTS came out the very same year as TND. I can see traces of his signature style, but I dunno why it doesn’t pop as much as his non-Bond work. I’m willing to blame Spottiswoode, who also worked for Roger Deakins on the film AIR AMERICA which wasn’t that visually impressive either.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,208
    TWINE is my favorite of the Brosnan era. Lake most of the bonds it's not perfect but in many ways it's classic Bond. Stronger for casting Renard and Dr. Jones would have helped immensely. Come to think of it, Halle Berry playing a smart, sophisticated sexy nuclear scientist would have been great and done her more justice than Jinx.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Robert Carlyle was a pretty good pick for a potential villain, but how he's used is pretty underwhelming.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,208
    Robert Carlyle was a pretty good pick for a potential villain, but how he's used is pretty underwhelming.

    Absolutely.


  • Robert Carlyle was a pretty good pick for a potential villain, but how he's used is pretty underwhelming.

    The whole concept of Renard was interesting but flawed from the start - an interesting idea that maybe shouldn't have made it all the way through to the final script. A more interesting idea maybe would be to keep the Elektra twist, but somehow have her lead Bond subtly down the path of thinking Zukovsky was the mastermind - for this to happen Coltrane's portrayal would need to have the element of menace and cynicism that was there in GoldenEye but was all but eradicated in TWINE for lines like 'Meet Nina and Verushka', 'The insurance company is never going to believe this' and 'I'm going to drown in my own caviar'.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    There's plenty of potential for Renard being a mirror for Bond. Two men that were emotionally manipulated by the same woman. One doesn't have sense of touch therefore can't feel pain, while the other is carrying an injury on his shoulder so he's always feeling pain. The film kind of dropped the ball on not taking more advantage of that concept. In the end, Bond's shoulder injury was only treated as a plot device for just one scene for him to realize Elektra's in cahoots. You'd think they'd set up a climax where Bond has to try to overcome his physical pain in order to stop a seemingly unstoppable baddie, but it never goes there.

    It's part of why TWINE is my least favorite, it has very promising ideas on the table but never really uses them. It's just a very limp film.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited January 2020 Posts: 6,298
    Getafix wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    Octopussy wrote: »
    Interesting topic, but it depends on how you define definitive? Bronsnan never gave what I would consider a definitive interpretation of the character, by which I mean one that was inspired by the source material. Unfortunately, Brosnan was the jack of all trades, but the master of none, IMO.

    100% agree. Brosnan never quite made Bond his own. Connery did in spades, Lazenby did by making Bond more human and vulnerable, Sir Roger played to his own strengths, Dalton brought back realism and a darker energy, and then Brosnan kicked off pretty well with GE which suggested a return of the gentleman spy with a ruthless edge, but very quickly he fell into Bond cliches - a shallow mix of Connery and Sir Roger - he just never made Bond his own. I will say, in Brosnan's defence, he was hampered by the scripts which, I think, narrowed his scope and forced him to play Bond the way he did.

    As I said earlier, I bet, if asked today, Brosnan himself would say, on careful reflection, he did not make his mark as Bond in the way he hoped he would.

    For those reasons, Brosnan is my least favourite Bond.

    The only thing definitive about TWINE is its status as worst Bond film.

    Pierce could have been a decent Bond but he was in dire films and I don't think any of his directors had the talent or perhaps respect for him as an actor, to bring out his best.

    Tarrantino directing Brosnan in CR remains a tantalising "what if" scenario. Pierce definitely needs clear eyed and strong direction to bring out his best.

    Hell, Tarantino could have directed Brosnan and Marceau in TWINE! The screenplay is dire, but the story--the love interest is the villain--is good.
  • Maybe I need to re-watch the film as I’m baffled by the criticism…..TWINE was the first Bond film I saw in cinemas, so naturally I’m affectionate towards it.

    But it has so much redeeming qualities, namely the terrific locations, one of the best villains in Elektra King, a more emotional plot and story. Isn’t this everything we want from Bond? Also you have David Arnold’s score, Q’s farewell scene (perfect!) and the Thames chase. This is terrific stuff!

    I mean it’s so good that Christopher Nolan basically ripped off the whole film in The Dark Knight Rises with Bane and Tallulah.

    I’m really into the whole plot of Bond having to protect a former kidnapped heiress from her old captor - only for it to be revealed she has Stockholm Syndrome. In fact, it’s more complicated than that as she has both Renard and Bond wrapped around little finger. It’s very reminiscent of the Patty Hearst scandal.

    Brosnan gives his best performance and there is some great action……I can’t see how this film is ‘boring’ or ‘beige’. In a post-Daniel Craig era, TWINE is due a critical reappraisal.

    Also, there are some amazing girls in this film….

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  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    TND and TWINE are probably the most unremarkable looking films of the series, down to art direction and photography. When doing screencap comparisons for the 4K thread, it really struck me how flat the films looked. Nothing really "pops". Contrast that with GE, which had a great noir look to it with the use of shadows and DAD for as plasticy looking it was at times it at least had some vibrancy.

    I disagree....I think the art direction, sets and costumes have a great real world texture. The film has a really rustic, live-in look and mood. Which is very fitting for the locations and politically-tinged story.

    It deliberately scaled back on the 'glamour' - Apted was tuning into his documentarian instincts...

    The-World-is-not-Enough-0469.jpg
    The-World-is-not-Enough-1079.jpg
    The-World-is-not-Enough-1091.jpg
    The-World-is-not-Enough-1183.jpg
    The-World-is-not-Enough-0312.jpg

    As far as i know the film took place over a period of around 3 weeks? If you include the period from King's death to his funeral in Scotland which was probably 10 to 12 days.

    So, therefore, the film opens around 10th December, and continues through the Christmas period to new year's eve.

    So, where the heck were all the Christmas decorations?

    OHMSS always gave off the sense of Christmas. TWINE ignores it all until the new years eve fire works. Always bothered me.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    NicNac wrote: »
    TND and TWINE are probably the most unremarkable looking films of the series, down to art direction and photography. When doing screencap comparisons for the 4K thread, it really struck me how flat the films looked. Nothing really "pops". Contrast that with GE, which had a great noir look to it with the use of shadows and DAD for as plasticy looking it was at times it at least had some vibrancy.

    I disagree....I think the art direction, sets and costumes have a great real world texture. The film has a really rustic, live-in look and mood. Which is very fitting for the locations and politically-tinged story.

    It deliberately scaled back on the 'glamour' - Apted was tuning into his documentarian instincts...

    The-World-is-not-Enough-0469.jpg
    The-World-is-not-Enough-1079.jpg
    The-World-is-not-Enough-1091.jpg
    The-World-is-not-Enough-1183.jpg
    The-World-is-not-Enough-0312.jpg

    As far as i know the film took place over a period of around 3 weeks? If you include the period from King's death to his funeral in Scotland which was probably 10 to 12 days.

    So, therefore, the film opens around 10th December, and continues through the Christmas period to new year's eve.

    So, where the heck were all the Christmas decorations?

    OHMSS always gave off the sense of Christmas. TWINE ignores it all until the new years eve fire works. Always bothered me.

    I could be wrong here as I've only ever been to Istanbul, but isn't it fair to say that a lot of TWINE takes place in countries that don't actually celebrate Christmas as tradition?
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    NicNac wrote: »
    TND and TWINE are probably the most unremarkable looking films of the series, down to art direction and photography. When doing screencap comparisons for the 4K thread, it really struck me how flat the films looked. Nothing really "pops". Contrast that with GE, which had a great noir look to it with the use of shadows and DAD for as plasticy looking it was at times it at least had some vibrancy.

    I disagree....I think the art direction, sets and costumes have a great real world texture. The film has a really rustic, live-in look and mood. Which is very fitting for the locations and politically-tinged story.

    It deliberately scaled back on the 'glamour' - Apted was tuning into his documentarian instincts...

    The-World-is-not-Enough-0469.jpg
    The-World-is-not-Enough-1079.jpg
    The-World-is-not-Enough-1091.jpg
    The-World-is-not-Enough-1183.jpg
    The-World-is-not-Enough-0312.jpg

    As far as i know the film took place over a period of around 3 weeks? If you include the period from King's death to his funeral in Scotland which was probably 10 to 12 days.

    So, therefore, the film opens around 10th December, and continues through the Christmas period to new year's eve.

    So, where the heck were all the Christmas decorations?

    OHMSS always gave off the sense of Christmas. TWINE ignores it all until the new years eve fire works. Always bothered me.

    I could be wrong here as I've only ever been to Istanbul, but isn't it fair to say that a lot of TWINE takes place in countries that don't actually celebrate Christmas as tradition?

    Very true that.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,120
    I never really got the criticism towards World and do not get them now either. As far as I'm concerned it's a close second to GE as the must see's of Brosnan's tenure.
    Brosnan gives his most meaty performance, Marceau is an excellent villain, the Arnold score is great, Brioni delivers some gorgeous attire, the Mi6 crew is fantastic without doing SP's Scooby-Doo stuff, you get some inventive gadgets, some fine stunts and, crucially, well-written plot that does something different without winking every two seconds: "Look how we're doing something different here.".

    I also agree with @Pierce2Daniel that the film deliberately goes for a more real-life look without losing its beauty. I will now probably get shot on the spot, but give me TWINE's Istanbul or Scotland over SF's.

    PS, Dr. Warmflash is the only doctor in Bond's universe I wouldn't mind to have around ;)
  • QQ7QQ7 Croatia
    Posts: 371
    Sean Connery and Pierce Brosnan are definitive James Bond actors, no one can convince me otherwise.

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  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    In agreement with @Pierce2Daniel and @GoldenGun on this one.

    I'd wager that TWINE does more with its three or four new ideas than most Bond films do with one or two. So the notion that it's somehow just a pile of missed opportunities is baffling to me.

    This movie has just about everything I could ask for from the series and manages to do so without compromising plot. A fleming-esgue story and villain's, great action (boat chase, buzzsaw helicopter attack) fun/inventive gadgets, a great score and title song, beautiful yet unpretentious cinematography, unique location's and so on.

    This one keeps me glued to the screen, there's always a great character moment/interaction, plot development or action scene keeping me hooked. Not a lull in sight.

    The criticism just never ends with this one. So it's nice to see some positivity in this thread from atleast a few members.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    In agreement with @Pierce2Daniel and @GoldenGun on this one.

    I'd wager that TWINE does more with its three or four new ideas than most Bond films do with one or two. So the notion that it's somehow just a pile of missed opportunities is baffling to me.

    This movie has just about everything I could ask for from the series and manages to do so without compromising plot. A fleming-esgue story and villain's, great action (boat chase, buzzsaw helicopter attack) fun/inventive gadgets, a great score and title song, beautiful yet unpretentious cinematography, unique location's and so on.

    This one keeps me glued to the screen, there's always a great character moment/interaction, plot development or action scene keeping me hooked. Not a lull in sight.

    The criticism just never ends with this one. So it's nice to see some positivity in this thread from atleast a few members.

    My biggest caveat with it is the climax on the nuclear submarine, which is pretty unexciting considering the stakes, and that's all down to poor direction.

    Everything else though, I agree. I think it's unfairly maligned.
  • Posts: 1,680
    TWINE is pierces best imo.
  • Tuck91 wrote: »
    TWINE is pierces best imo.

    I agree. I'm gonna re-watch this weekend.

    But just imagine if we got set pictures like this today online. We'd be over the moon. It's Pierce actually driving the speedboat. This is really terrific stuff in my opinion

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