TWINE: Did Brosnan offer a definitive characterisation of 007?

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  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Fair enough but as someone who uses the London underground at least 5 days a week, I thought it was a great stunt/gag.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Fair enough. I just thought that like a lot of SF I'd seen it all before.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    doubleoego wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    SF had the classic Rog moment of Bond jumping on the back of the tube train and the double taking OAPs.

    Yes, because seeing an impeccably suited man running along a train platform, during rush hour I might add and jumping on the back of a train, moments before it disappears into the tunnels of London's underground is a normal occurrence 8-|

    It is, in a Bond film
  • Posts: 3,327
    I fear you're missed the point entirely, Brosnan is unique within his performance. Your thoughts were very much my fears when Craig took over the role, that essentially Pierce was just a screensaver as we were all waiting for the reboot era to finally kick in. But what Brosnan brought to the role is clear to me after having watched his film's once more. He really injects a charisma into the role, his Bond has decidedly more swagger than any previous 007. Also I think Brosnan is an extremely affable bloke, and this shines in his performances especially when it comes to developing any on-screen chemistry with his leading ladies. The relationship with Natayla works because Brosnan works so well in crafting that chemistry between himself and Scorpuco. Furthermore in TND him and Yeoh work very well off each other and the pair seem very comfortable when together. Brosnan's chemistry with Marceau makes the movie work, think of that scene in the bed in TWINE and then juxtapose it with that underplayed moment in Electra’s room after the ski attack, there is an interplay there suggesting the pair are enjoying their time together. But this thread is about the TWINE in particular not Brosnan's entire run in the character. I feel he injected a decree of humanity and danger while playing Bond with all the charm and suavity which he has become associated with. There was an evolution to the character here in his hands which I feel has been underrated in the years that have passed.
    Just because Brozza appears to have on-screen chemistry with the ladies, does not make him the perfect Bond. Your justifications and reasons for liking him are mainly based around that.

    There are far more problems with his performance, which have been highlighted in this thread, and which contributed to him appearing in the worst 4 films of the entire franchise (ok, AVTAK aside, which also belongs at the bottom of the scrap heap along with Brozza's 4 films).
  • Posts: 3,327
    Getafix wrote:
    Fair enough. I just thought that like a lot of SF I'd seen it all before.

    I thought it was quite a refreshing moment to see in SF, away from the heavy drama and impending doom which hangs over quite a lot of the movie.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Getafix wrote:
    Fair enough. I just thought that like a lot of SF I'd seen it all before.

    I thought it was quite a refreshing moment to see in SF, away from the heavy drama and impending doom which hangs over quite a lot of the movie.
    I guess anything in an action movie will potentially have been seen before. It must be difficult to be entirely original.
    However I thought the combination of action, drama and humour was well done in SF.

  • I fear you're missed the point entirely, Brosnan is unique within his performance. Your thoughts were very much my fears when Craig took over the role, that essentially Pierce was just a screensaver as we were all waiting for the reboot era to finally kick in. But what Brosnan brought to the role is clear to me after having watched his film's once more. He really injects a charisma into the role, his Bond has decidedly more swagger than any previous 007. Also I think Brosnan is an extremely affable bloke, and this shines in his performances especially when it comes to developing any on-screen chemistry with his leading ladies. The relationship with Natayla works because Brosnan works so well in crafting that chemistry between himself and Scorpuco. Furthermore in TND him and Yeoh work very well off each other and the pair seem very comfortable when together. Brosnan's chemistry with Marceau makes the movie work, think of that scene in the bed in TWINE and then juxtapose it with that underplayed moment in Electra’s room after the ski attack, there is an interplay there suggesting the pair are enjoying their time together. But this thread is about the TWINE in particular not Brosnan's entire run in the character. I feel he injected a decree of humanity and danger while playing Bond with all the charm and suavity which he has become associated with. There was an evolution to the character here in his hands which I feel has been underrated in the years that have passed.
    Just because Brozza appears to have on-screen chemistry with the ladies, does not make him the perfect Bond. Your justifications and reasons for liking him are mainly based around that.

    There are far more problems with his performance, which have been highlighted in this thread, and which contributed to him appearing in the worst 4 films of the entire franchise (ok, AVTAK aside, which also belongs at the bottom of the scrap heap along with Brozza's 4 films).

    One of the issues that I have with Brosnan, which is surprising considering his looks and charm, is that for the most part he didn't have very good chemistry with his leading ladies. Again, it gets down to the *idea* versus the reality - our minds fill in the blanks in thinking that two good-looking, charming people should get together. But the actual interaction and acting between them is often very...dry. When Natalia kisses Bond after the train explodes in GE it just comes out of nowhere, something that happens because the script says that it's supposed to. Better actors would have built a subtle attraction to each other in the previous scenes - a quick admiring look, a pause before a line showing that they're a little distracted by the other's attractiveness. But we get none of that. Instead we're left with the *idea* of chemistry - the characters *should* be attracted to each other so we just assume that they are.

    I can see why people like Brosnan, but like with every actor who plays Bond I think that sometimes we read in more than is there because we like the actor so much.

  • Posts: 3,327

    One of the issues that I have with Brosnan, which is surprising considering his looks and charm, is that for the most part he didn't have very good chemistry with his leading ladies. Again, it gets down to the *idea* versus the reality - our minds fill in the blanks in thinking that two good-looking, charming people should get together. But the actual interaction and acting between them is often very...dry. When Natalia kisses Bond after the train explodes in GE it just comes out of nowhere, something that happens because the script says that it's supposed to. Better actors would have built a subtle attraction to each other in the previous scenes - a quick admiring look, a pause before a line showing that they're a little distracted by the other's attractiveness. But we get none of that. Instead we're left with the *idea* of chemistry - the characters *should* be attracted to each other so we just assume that they are.

    I can see why people like Brosnan, but like with every actor who plays Bond I think that sometimes we read in more than is there because we like the actor so much.

    Oh dear. Now we are saying the one thing Brozza is supposed to have, doesn't even have that either.

    Poor old Brozza!! :-j
  • Posts: 11,425
    I thought Brozza seemed most comfortable on screen with Michelle Yeoh. I'm not saying it was great acting or anything, just that they seemed to get on in a believable way. Helped that she wasn't 23 as well.
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 11,189
    I think there was quite a nice exchange between Isabella and Brosnan that suggested there was a bit of chemisty.

    "They're going to kill me aren't they?"
    "trust me"
    "trust you? I don't even know your name.

    It's a sensitive moment between the two and the slight nervous smile Isabella gives to Brosnan suggests she likes him.
  • Posts: 3,327
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I think there was quite a nice exchange between Isabella and Brosnan that suggested there was a bit of chemisty.

    "They're going to kill me aren't they?"
    "trust me"
    "trust you? I don't even know your name.

    It's a sensitive moment between the two and the slight nervous smile Isabella gives to Brosnan suggests she likes him.
    I think we really are now starting to clutch at straws here......

  • BAIN123 wrote:
    I think there was quite a nice exchange between Isabella and Brosnan that suggested there was a bit of chemisty.

    "They're going to kill me aren't they?"
    "trust me"
    "trust you? I don't even know your name.

    It's a sensitive moment between the two and the slight nervous smile Isabella gives to Brosnan suggests she likes him.
    I think we really are now starting to clutch at straws here......

    And that isn't what the people who bash Brosnan day in day out on here do?

    Every time somebody points what they think is a good moment from one of his films they clutch at straws and find something wrong with it.

    The bungee jump was a good stun- No it was stupid. You could do that yourself. Bungee jumping is never used in the military!

    The tank cha- Bond should be the one escaping, not wrecklessly destroying stuff!

    The graveyar- It's "its says here dialouge"

    Killing Elek- He doesn't sell it well and kisses her after, Craig would've been better.

    The Korea stuff in DA- Why are they surfing? He looked fat in the bridge scene and I don't like his specs!
  • Posts: 3,327
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I think there was quite a nice exchange between Isabella and Brosnan that suggested there was a bit of chemisty.

    "They're going to kill me aren't they?"
    "trust me"
    "trust you? I don't even know your name.

    It's a sensitive moment between the two and the slight nervous smile Isabella gives to Brosnan suggests she likes him.
    I think we really are now starting to clutch at straws here......

    And that isn't what the people who bash Brosnan day in day out on here do?

    Every time somebody points what they think is a good moment from one of his films they clutch at straws and find something wrong with it.

    The bungee jump was a good stun- No it was stupid. You could do that yourself. Bungee jumping is never used in the military!

    The tank cha- Bond should be the one escaping, not wrecklessly destroying stuff!

    The graveyar- It's "its says here dialouge"

    Killing Elek- He doesn't sell it well and kisses her after, Craig would've been better.

    The Korea stuff in DA- Why are they surfing? He looked fat in the bridge scene and I don't like his specs!

    That's more like it. Now you are getting in the swing of things. We'll make you a decent Brozza Basher yet...... \:D/
  • Posts: 5,745
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    ...

    I fear you're missed the point entirely,

    Let's see:
    He really injects a charisma into the role, his Bond has decidedly more swagger than any previous 007.
    To me this 'swagger' comes off as cockiness. Bond doesn't have swagger, he has confidence. Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dlaton, and Craig all have confidence. Not swagger.
    Also I think Brosnan is an extremely affable bloke, and this shines in his performances especially when it comes to developing any on-screen chemistry with his leading ladies.

    "Affable," as in friendly. You enjoy your British assassin to be a great guy to sit around a share a pint? It's like your saying Brosnan was the 'nice-guy' of the Bonds. Craig puts it perfectly in CR when asked "Why can't more nice guys be like you," and he responds, "Cause then they'd be bad." Taken literally, he's right. Bond isn't a nice guy. He's a killer when he needs to be, a lover when he wants to be.
    Think of that scene in the bed in TWINE and then juxtapose it with that underplayed moment in Electra’s room after the ski attack, there is an interplay there suggesting the pair are enjoying their time together. I feel he injected a decree of humanity and danger while playing Bond with all the charm and suavity which he has become associated with.

    They had sex. If we were to assume Bond cared for every woman he had sex with, it'd be a pretty sad story for him.

    Look, I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes, but what I take from Brosnan's performance(s) are sleaziness and cockiness. There's no point to 'miss' because that is my subjective opinion. Brosnan is the jock of the football team of Bond's, and we've all grown up to see him for what he is: a cocky teenager with daddy's Porche. IMO, @Getafix is right: a devolution.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    edited December 2012 Posts: 3,497
    I've come to like TND more than GE. Why?

    -Brosnan's really good
    -Elektra is brilliant, great farewell moment too
    -Sad & at the same time beautiful goodbye of Q
    -One of the coolest BMW's ever built ;)
    -Judi Dench's best performance as M during PB's tenure

    But... the flaws make that this will NEVER be in my top ten:

    -Goldie & Carlyle are wasted
    -The torture scene is laughable
    -Denise Richards
    -Overly long boat chase, silly tie adjusting
    -John Cleese
  • JamesCraig wrote:
    I've come to like TND more than GE. Why?

    -Brosnan's really good
    -Elektra is brilliant, great farewell moment too
    -Sad & at the same time beautiful goodbye of Q
    -One of the coolest BMW's ever built ;)
    -Judi Dench's best performance as M during PB's tenure

    But... the flaws make that this will NEVER be in my top ten:

    -Goldie & Carlyle are wasted
    -Denise Richards
    -Overly long boat chase, silly tie adjusting
    -John Cleese

    IMO- The boat chase wasn't overly long. Goldie wasn't wasted, he didn't have much screen time but he wasn't a brilliant character anyway, and Denise Richards was no worse than some of the Moore era girls. She did her job, she showed up, looked hot, and shagged Bond.

    Cleese was a bit Mr Bean in this one but there was nothing terrible about him. He was better in DAD though. Honestly most of those flaws you pointed out don't seem major to me.
  • Posts: 3,327
    I actually find Brozza's worst performance as Bond to be in TWINE.

    GE he looked puny, but was salvaged by decent direction overall, and a few decent scenes.

    TND was his best performance, and best film. He put on weight, bulked up a bit, and Arnold's score helped give the film a more Bond feel to it. It was a typical formula-by-numbers Bond, ticked all the formula boxes, was fairly run-of-the-mill, but served a purpose.

    TWINE was just an abysmal mess, and his performance was all over the shop. He really lost the plot with this one, particularly with the now legendary`knew where to hurt me', scene. Brozza didn't have a clue about the Fleming character, and when a script attempts to flesh out such traits, Brozza was suddenly exposed and looked totally out of his depth. He had relied on a one-trick pony action character for Bond, all superficial with no substance, and in TWINE he was found out when the writers attempted a Fleming approach, that was so far removed from Fleming it was laughable. P&W were also found out in this film.

    DAD was the worst film ever made, but Brozza was better in this than he was in TWINE.
  • Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I think there was quite a nice exchange between Isabella and Brosnan that suggested there was a bit of chemisty.

    "They're going to kill me aren't they?"
    "trust me"
    "trust you? I don't even know your name.

    It's a sensitive moment between the two and the slight nervous smile Isabella gives to Brosnan suggests she likes him.
    I think we really are now starting to clutch at straws here......

    And that isn't what the people who bash Brosnan day in day out on here do?

    Every time somebody points what they think is a good moment from one of his films they clutch at straws and find something wrong with it.

    The bungee jump was a good stun- No it was stupid. You could do that yourself. Bungee jumping is never used in the military!

    The tank cha- Bond should be the one escaping, not wrecklessly destroying stuff!

    The graveyar- It's "its says here dialouge"

    Killing Elek- He doesn't sell it well and kisses her after, Craig would've been better.

    The Korea stuff in DA- Why are they surfing? He looked fat in the bridge scene and I don't like his specs!

    You took the words right out of my mouth!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    I cannot wait to hear the Craig trashing that will be about when they sign the next saviour of the franchise! :))
  • Posts: 11,425
    Nah. Craig could never be as bad as Brozza.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited December 2012 Posts: 17,798
    "Wow, _______ ________ is just SO perfect as Bond, he makes Daniel Craig look wooden and shallow by comparison! After his only good film, Quantum Of Solace, it all went downhill so fast. Hard to believe we actually made it through his tenure...
    And you know, it also shows us that Brosnan wasn't as bad as we used to think!"
  • Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote:
    "Wow, _______ ________ is just SO perfect as Bond, he makes Daniel Craig look wooden and shallow by comparison! After his only good film, Quantum Of Solace, it all went downhill so fast. Hard to believe we actually made it through his tenure...
    And you know, it also shows us the Brosnan wasn't as bad as we used to think!"

    That would be very funny. I think Idris is the man!
  • Posts: 5,745
    chrisisall wrote:
    "Wow, _______ ________ is just SO perfect as Bond, he makes Daniel Craig look wooden and shallow by comparison! After his only good film, Quantum Of Solace, it all went downhill so fast. Hard to believe we actually made it through his tenure...
    And you know, it also shows us the Brosnan wasn't as bad as we used to think!"

    Yes, you know my opinions better than myself. And see the future. :O
  • DAD was the worst film ever made, but Brozza was better in this than he was in TWINE.

    Do you actually believe it was the worst film ever made? What about Batman and Robin, Transformers, etc?
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    "Wow, _______ ________ is just SO perfect as Bond, he makes Daniel Craig look wooden and shallow by comparison! After his only good film, Quantum Of Solace, it all went downhill so fast. Hard to believe we actually made it through his tenure...
    And you know, it also shows us the Brosnan wasn't as bad as we used to think!"

    Yes, you know my opinions better than myself. And see the future. :O

    He never said it was you did he.

    Lots of people will actually be like that. They'll just like the newer model and turn on the guy before. It happened with Dalton, and now (at least on this site) it's happening with Brosnan.
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 11,189
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I think there was quite a nice exchange between Isabella and Brosnan that suggested there was a bit of chemisty. "They're going to kill me aren't they?""trust me""trust you? I don't even know your name. It's a sensitive moment between the two and the slight nervous smile Isabella gives to Brosnan suggests she likes him.
    I think we really are now starting to clutch at straws here......
    And that isn't what the people who bash Brosnan day in day out on here do?Every time somebody points what they think is a good moment from one of his films they clutch at straws and find something wrong with it.The bungee jump was a good stun- No it was stupid. You could do that yourself. Bungee jumping is never used in the military!The tank cha- Bond should be the one escaping, not wrecklessly destroying stuff!The graveyar- It's "its says here dialouge"Killing Elek- He doesn't sell it well and kisses her after, Craig would've been better.The Korea stuff in DA- Why are they surfing? He looked fat in the bridge scene and I don't like his specs!

    I think its funny how a fair chunk of those points can't be pinned souely on Brosnan.For the record I still love the bunjee jump. Only a pro with real concentration could pull a gun out after falling 220metres. I don't think you or I could do that no matter how much we like to believe it. Its a good stunt well filmed...and I love the tank chase because of the sheer spectacle and the fact that it actually took time and effort to put together - and that effort showed onscreen.

    I also think Brosnan sells Electra's death well in TWINE. That's an occasion where he DOESN'T overract. I can't deny his shortcomings in the scene when he confronts Electra earlier in the film though - overracting to the extreme.

    He looks fatter in the black jumper at the ice palace than he does on the bridge in DAD but there we go. 
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited December 2012 Posts: 17,798
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I still love the bunjee jump. Only a pro with real concentration could pull a gun out after falling 220metres.
    That's one of the most impressive stunts I've ever seen for that reason.

  • Posts: 3,327

    Do you actually believe it was the worst film ever made? What about Batman and Robin, Transformers, etc?

    Batman & Robin could give DAD a serious run for its money, I give you that.....
  • Posts: 3,327
    chrisisall wrote:
    I cannot wait to hear the Craig trashing that will be about when they sign the next saviour of the franchise! :))
    Won't happen from me. I know what I like and what I don't instantly, which doesn't really change over time.

    I hated Brozza back in the 90's, and still do now. Your theory is based on me actually originally liking old Brozza, then changing my mind once Craig came on the scene.

    It never happened. I hated Brozza from the beginning.

  • edited December 2012 Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote:
    I cannot wait to hear the Craig trashing that will be about when they sign the next saviour of the franchise! :))
    Won't happen from me. I know what I like and what I don't instantly, which doesn't really change over time.

    I hated Brozza back in the 90's, and still do now. Your theory is based on me actually originally liking old Brozza, then changing my mind once Craig came on the scene.

    It never happened. I hated Brozza from the beginning.

    Same here. Hated Brozza from day one and thought DC was decent but not as good as the Daltinator from the first time I saw CR. ;) We're still on a long up-hill journey back to where we were in terms of quality in 89 IMO.
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    I cannot wait to hear the Craig trashing that will be about when they sign the next saviour of the franchise! :))
    Won't happen from me. I know what I like and what I don't instantly, which doesn't really change over time.

    I hated Brozza back in the 90's, and still do now. Your theory is based on me actually originally liking old Brozza, then changing my mind once Craig came on the scene.

    It never happened. I hated Brozza from the beginning.

    Same here. Hated Brozza from day one and thought DC was decent but not as good as the Daltinator from the first time I saw CR. ;) We're still on a long up-hill journey back to where we were in terms of quality in 89 IMO.

    SF is easily better than LTK (and I say that as someone who used to rate LTK in my top 5).

    At least SF doesn't contain a silly American bar fight and cheesey "look how tough he is" dialogue ("he's had enough...run a tab") ;)

    Oh and its filmed better

    The stunning Adele song/PTS video alone trounce it too.

    I'd say we are in one of the best positions we've been in for a LONG time (and the "Daltonator" would probably admit that too)
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