Were there ever secret agents "licensed to kill" in real-life?

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  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Wow. Boy, are things different in the U.S. Not that I'm an expert or have any inside information.
    But this is interesting to me, to learn more about the UK restrictions.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I also believe that you need something like 12 years of trusted service to get half the privileges Americans would.
  • edited April 2013 Posts: 15,123
    In the first volume of Queen&Country, the fact that operatives do NOT have the right to carry firearms in the UK is actually central to the point, when the operative (and heroin of the series) Tara Chace is targeted by the Russian mafia for killing a Russian general. Even though there is a bounty on her head, her bosses at MI6 and rivals at MI5 are adamant that she should remain unarmed as the law requires. The fact that she does kill as part of her job even gives weight to their argument: they don't want a potentially trigger-happy target on the open in London.
  • Ludovico wrote:
    I don't remember Fleming mentioning it, but it makes sense that they cannot. A scene like the one in DN, when Bond opens the door of his apartment holding his PPK, would be impossible in real life. Well, not impossible, but he would be doing something illegal.

    I'm afraid that's incorrect @Ludovico. Semi-automatic pistols such as the Walther PPK were perfectly legal in the UK, to anyone over the age of 17 and holding a licence, until 1997.

    Even since the ban on firearms in 1997, someone like Bond would almost certainly still be entitled to carry one in the UK (as he does in Skyfall) as a 'Personal Protection Weapon'
    Wow. Boy, are things different in the U.S. Not that I'm an expert or have any inside information.
    But this is interesting to me, to learn more about the UK restrictions.

    The 1997 legislation was pretty controversial at the time but it's worth noting that the UK now has one of the lowest rates of gun homicide in the world.
  • Posts: 15,123
    I'm not a lawyer, but I understand there is a difference between a personal weapon and a service weapon. Bond may have a personal firearm, but he wouldn't have the right to use his service weapon within the UK, as far as I understand it.
  • edited April 2013 Posts: 388
    Ludovico wrote:
    I'm not a lawyer, but I understand there is a difference between a personal weapon and a service weapon. Bond may have a personal firearm, but he wouldn't have the right to use his service weapon within the UK, as far as I understand it.

    There's no such distinction in law @Ludovico. Bond would be legally entitled to possess a semi-automatic handgun (regardless of how it was obtained or who it was owned by) as "a person in the service of Her Majesty" - he would require written authorisation, probably from the Home Secretary or the Foreign Secretary, which he would certainly receive.

    As to whether he has the right to use it, he would be subject to the law like anyone else. The use of force for (a) the prevention of crime and (b) the apprehension of offenders (and those unlawfully at large) must be ‘reasonable’. I think Bond's behaviour in both TWINE and SF (the only occasions I can remember him using his gun in the UK) would be considered more than reasonable and the case wouldn't even get to court.
  • doubleonothingdoubleonothing Los Angeles
    Posts: 864
    Ludovico wrote:
    I'm not a lawyer, but I understand there is a difference between a personal weapon and a service weapon. Bond may have a personal firearm, but he wouldn't have the right to use his service weapon within the UK, as far as I understand it.

    We have a number of armed units in the UK. As mentioned, MI5's Regional Action Groups are armed, as is the Met's SCO19.


  • Posts: 15,123
    Ludovico wrote:
    I'm not a lawyer, but I understand there is a difference between a personal weapon and a service weapon. Bond may have a personal firearm, but he wouldn't have the right to use his service weapon within the UK, as far as I understand it.

    We have a number of armed units in the UK. As mentioned, MI5's Regional Action Groups are armed, as is the Met's SCO19.


    Yes but those are MI5, not MI6. MI6 operates outside UK and if I'm not wrong an operative would get armed abroad, not in the UK. Although I do understand the rules are not always strictly applied.
  • edited April 2013 Posts: 388
    Ludovico wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    I'm not a lawyer, but I understand there is a difference between a personal weapon and a service weapon. Bond may have a personal firearm, but he wouldn't have the right to use his service weapon within the UK, as far as I understand it.

    We have a number of armed units in the UK. As mentioned, MI5's Regional Action Groups are armed, as is the Met's SCO19.


    Yes but those are MI5, not MI6. MI6 operates outside UK and if I'm not wrong an operative would get armed abroad, not in the UK. Although I do understand the rules are not always strictly applied.

    You're right that SIS operates abroad and, as such, those operatives that carry firearms do so for their operations overseas. But those operatives that (a) carry firearms as part of their duties and (b)are based in the UK and not permanently stationed abroad will be licenced to carry a gun in the UK even though they will not be expected or, for that matter, authorised (by SIS) to actually use it in the UK.

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2014 Posts: 18,281
    I've been thinking this one over again as I want to write a really topical article on this subject matter and how it relates to the world of James Bond and vice versa.

    I wonder do these unmanned drones that are giving the Pakistani Taliban such a time of it could be classed as being from the covert "James Bond" school of modern warfare at all? I'm very interested in exploring this in more depth soon and thought that I would ask my felolow MI6 agents here.

    I'm also still very interested in the points raised in my OP in this thread - namely "Were there ever secret agents (or other state actors "licensed to kill") in real-life?"

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    For those of you who live in fantasy and think the James Bond life exists...it really doesn't. But, on the other hand, if there really were agents that had a "license to kill" that did act how you think - globe-trotting spies with infinite ammo, alcohol, and women - do you really think they would promote something like that? Of course not.
  • smartalek180smartalek180 Galt's Glitch, USA
    Posts: 1
    Very curious how (unless I just missed it) nobody in this thread has thought to mention the drone programs that the US has been running in the MidEast (and elsewhere? There was a small kerfuffle when it was noted that Obama let it be known that the enabling legislation / regulations specifically did NOT exclude use within the territory of the US "homeland") since the Cheney/Bush era, and not just continued, but escalated, under Obama.
    (But he's a[n ostensible] liberal, so that's all right then.)
    I wonder if that's because, iirc (I could easily be wrong, though), those programs are run under the purview of the military, rather than by our CIA or NSA?
    But even if that's so, please recall that our military branches have their very own intelligence services, and consequently, the drone programs could very well be spook-run, instead of or as well as, warrior-run.
    (I seem to recall reading somewhere that both the military and the security community have players in place in the facilities running the drone program.)
    There is little question that these drone programs are literal assassination functions, and are thus literal licence-to-kill scenarios in real life.
    Thanks, Obama!

    (Mods, brandy-new callow noob here; this is my very first post. If political commentary and/or snark are verboten, or just not done, pls accept my apologies and feel free to selectively or entirely delete. If you alert me that this is an infraction, it won't happen again. Cheers!)
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote:
    My ''knowledge'' on the matter is from 'realistic' spy series The Sandbaggers and Queen & Country, so take it with a pinch of salt, but I understand that MI6 agents, as they do not have the right to operate in the UK (this is MI5's turf), cannot even carry arms when not abroad. if there is something somewhat equivalent to a licence to kill, it is very restrictive.

    Exactly. I think Deaver mentions that in Carte Blanche, and no doubt Fleming did in one of the novels.

    I don't remember Fleming mentioning it, but it makes sense that they cannot. A scene like the one in DN, when Bond opens the door of his apartment holding his PPK, would be impossible in real life. Well, not impossible, but he would be doing something illegal.

    I recall Fleming mentioning it in his third Bond novel Moonraker (1955), a mission set entirely in England for which he was allowed special dispensation as a Secret Service (or MI6) agent to conduct his investigation within UK borders. This would normally be solely within MI5's (the Security Services') remit.
  • Posts: 142

    It might not be the best solution for maintaining your secret agent status, not to mention upsetting international relationships for your country.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Allen_Davis_incident
  • Posts: 15,123
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote:
    My ''knowledge'' on the matter is from 'realistic' spy series The Sandbaggers and Queen & Country, so take it with a pinch of salt, but I understand that MI6 agents, as they do not have the right to operate in the UK (this is MI5's turf), cannot even carry arms when not abroad. if there is something somewhat equivalent to a licence to kill, it is very restrictive.

    Exactly. I think Deaver mentions that in Carte Blanche, and no doubt Fleming did in one of the novels.

    I don't remember Fleming mentioning it, but it makes sense that they cannot. A scene like the one in DN, when Bond opens the door of his apartment holding his PPK, would be impossible in real life. Well, not impossible, but he would be doing something illegal.

    I recall Fleming mentioning it in his third Bond novel Moonraker (1955), a mission set entirely in England for which he was allowed special dispensation as a Secret Service (or MI6) agent to conduct his investigation within UK borders. This would normally be solely within MI5's (the Security Services') remit.

    Yes I remember. People often confuse the two.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,264
    Very curious how (unless I just missed it) nobody in this thread has thought to mention the drone programs that the US has been running in the MidEast (and elsewhere? There was a small kerfuffle when it was noted that Obama let it be known that the enabling legislation / regulations specifically did NOT exclude use within the territory of the US "homeland") since the Cheney/Bush era, and not just continued, but escalated, under Obama.
    (But he's a[n ostensible] liberal, so that's all right then.)
    I wonder if that's because, iirc (I could easily be wrong, though), those programs are run under the purview of the military, rather than by our CIA or NSA?
    But even if that's so, please recall that our military branches have their very own intelligence services, and consequently, the drone programs could very well be spook-run, instead of or as well as, warrior-run.
    (I seem to recall reading somewhere that both the military and the security community have players in place in the facilities running the drone program.)
    There is little question that these drone programs are literal assassination functions, and are thus literal licence-to-kill scenarios in real life.
    Thanks, Obama!

    (Mods, brandy-new callow noob here; this is my very first post. If political commentary and/or snark are verboten, or just not done, pls accept my apologies and feel free to selectively or entirely delete. If you alert me that this is an infraction, it won't happen again. Cheers!)

    AFAK the drone programs in Syria and Iraq at least are run both by the military, but more specifically, by the CIA. Again to my knowledge, the Americans are one of the few, if only Western countries to give a non-military organisation so much power. For others, amongst which my own country, spying in these hotbeds is done mostly by military intelligence (which to my mind makes more sense). I don't think any other president, republican or democrat, would've cut down on the drones, as they avoid casualties on your own side. It's an American habit to avoid risking their own staff and as much as possible fight from a distance. Not saying it's good or bad, just that there's a difference.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    This was my very first thread here back when I joined our Community in December 2012. It's nice to see it get a revival after all of these years and it still remains a subject of great interest to me!
  • Posts: 342
    Don’t forget Bond is more akin to SOE, rather then a spy. SOE were issued with firearms, explosives and gadgets to collect information and disrupt the enemy. They would kill high value targets, or kill to prevent failure of their mission or their capture.

    Fleming simply took that concept and applied to enemies of the state in peacetime.

    In the modern world, Govt employees kill all the time - look at the number of people legally killed by police officers in the US and other countries
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,264

    Interesting, it underlines my post from 2017.

    Wonder if the French do it that way as well. As I understand it they're killing off their jihad fighters as a measure to prevent them from coming back.
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