Anyone else feel like Brosnan was the "fall guy"?

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  • edited February 2013 Posts: 12,837
    @hoppimike Couldn't have put it better myself.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    GE gets a whopping 82/78 at Rotten Tomatoes. That's roughly the same as Thunderball. Way to go, Pierce.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    JamesCraig wrote:
    The script is not the worst of Brosnan's tenure, but fantastic? nah. :)>-

    Maybe not fantastic, but definitely strong and elevated by the other elements, including solid acting and good action scenes.
  • Where's a link to the PB magazine interview with Brosnan right after DC was cast for CR? Also, where's the initial statement by George Lazenby about Brosnan?
  • Posts: 3,327

    TWINE and especially GE are far superior in almost every aspect to OP and AVTAK. I'd give AVTAK the edge in the villain department but it failed in almost every other department. Brosnan's best (GE) is just as good as Moore's best (Spy).
    Looks like we are both insane. b-(
  • Posts: 11,189
    For me GE is vastly superior to AVTAK and to a lesser extent OP, though OP is superior to TWINE (not sure whether I prefer TWINE to AVTAK though).
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    @BAIN123 that made me dizzy.
  • AVTAK sounds better than ATAC.
  • Posts: 11,425
    GE as good as OP? No way!
  • Posts: 2,341
    chrisisall wrote:
    doubleoego wrote:
    The problem, however, was that they were horribly realised and failed in their execution.
    Horribly? Failed?? Wow, I was unaware of this, except in the case of DAD.
    The truth is, IN MY OPINION, Brosnan's first three are better than MOST of Moore's films and at least a couple of Connery's. That's not 'horrible' or 'failed' in my book.
    :-\"

    Go back and watch TWINE
    It started with two great premises: Renaud who could not feel pain. They had this big buildup leading up to him and the only time we saw it was when he picked up a hot piece of coal. His fight with Bond was funny because for someone who could not feel pain he sure felt Bond's punches.

    Other poorly executed premise was with Elektra. She was the principal villain and 'Bond had some feelings for her so killing her would have cause him some hesitation. It would have given Brozza a chance to show another side of Bond, a man with feelings and human feelings. Rather than just shoot her in cold blood (after he had all these conflicted feelings) just did not ring true.
    It would have made more sense to have the showdown with Renaud and kill him first and save Elektra the principal for a final showdown with Bond. They could have had it done where they struggle for a weapon and in his hesitancy she gets the drop on him and before she kills him BANG! Elektra drops to the floor dead and we see M standing there holding a smoking gun. Bond would show some remorse but is relieved that M saved his life...
    This would have carried more weight and would have resounded better.
    This approach made more sense than the anticlimactic one we got in TWINE.

    DAD is just a trainwreck and we won't rehash the many ways they blew it here.

    TND they could have gotten more out of the Paris/Bond relationship rather than that stupid slap, silly dialogue and one sex scene. Stamper was too generic and could have been utilized better. They should not have killed Carver, been done too many times. Turn the asshole in and let him waste in prison.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    OHMSS69 wrote:
    Go back and watch TWINE
    I have, and I'll watch Brosnan's first three at my leisure, thanks. Nothing in your post above changes two facts: the movies are what they are, and I enjoy the hell out of them AS IS. Piss on Brosnan's films all you like; you want gritty realism in Bond movies, then watch... well, actually don't watch any.
    :))
  • Posts: 15,124
    I enjoyed TWINE, more than it deserves maybe, but it does have its share of flaws. I might make a topic on it, but anyone noticed that the Renard-Elektra couple is very akin to the Bane-Talia couple of The Dark Knight Rises? In the Batman, it is much better executed, but still, there are uncanny similarities.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    I hated how Bond fell so in love with Elektra over a computer monitor. Jeez.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    doubleoego wrote:
    I hated how Bond fell so in love with Elektra over a computer monitor. Jeez.

    And how he didn't with Severine was cool, right?
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    Brosnan was never a very versatile actor.. if you've seen him in one role, then you've seen them all.. the only thing that changes in his performance from film to film is his level of smugness and smarm.. in every role, he's essentially just being "Pierce Brosnan is Pierce Brosnan as so and so".... i dont mind Pierce though, and i loved him in films like Seraphim Falls and The Thomas Crown Affair... as Bond, i think he did the best with what he was given - which wasn't much.. but at the same time, i dont think he ever really managed to carry a film with his performance - he just sort of blends in with the surroundings...... a combination of bad scripts, average directors, and some piss poor casting decisions will kill you every time.

    do i think they threw Pierce under the bus? Not at all... like several others have said, i've never heard the producers speak outwardly negative about Pierce at all (the sour grapes seem to be all at his end).. i just think he was the victim of poor circumstances... as the producers themselves really were waffling back and forth on which direction to take the franchise.. and it wasn't until Pierce was done that they came to the realization that they needed to take a more grounded approach... something Pierce wanted - but something i never heard him champion until after his ties were cut with the franchise.
  • Posts: 15,124
    HASEROT wrote:
    Brosnan was never a very versatile actor.. if you've seen him in one role, then you've seen them all.. the only thing that changes in his performance from film to film is his level of smugness and smarm.. in every role, he's essentially just being "Pierce Brosnan is Pierce Brosnan as so and so".... i dont mind Pierce though, and i loved him in films like Seraphim Falls and The Thomas Crown Affair... as Bond, i think he did the best with what he was given - which wasn't much.. but at the same time, i dont think he ever really managed to carry a film with his performance - he just sort of blends in with the surroundings...... a combination of bad scripts, average directors, and some piss poor casting decisions will kill you every time.

    do i think they threw Pierce under the bus? Not at all... like several others have said, i've never heard the producers speak outwardly negative about Pierce at all (the sour grapes seem to be all at his end).. i just think he was the victim of poor circumstances... as the producers themselves really were waffling back and forth on which direction to take the franchise.. and it wasn't until Pierce was done that they came to the realization that they needed to take a more grounded approach... something Pierce wanted - but something i never heard him champion until after his ties were cut with the franchise.

    I think Pierce Brosnan can be carried by a movie, but never really carries it. Casting him as Bond was a great marketing decision, heck it might have contributed to saving the franchise, but it did contribute to create a creativity limbo, so to speak. Brosnan is an average actor, but he is even less a muse. But yes, you are right, the producers were mainly responsible to the lack of clear direction. But it had started, I think, with LTK.
  • 002002
    Posts: 581
    Getafix wrote:
    GE as good as OP? No way!

    Really atleast Brosnan doesnt do a Tarzan Yell

    But i love both Goldeneye and Octopussy
  • Posts: 7,653
    Brosnan did a great job in his version of 007.

    He is that kind of actor that is actually in style of the cinema of the '30's and '40's and as such he is brilliant.

    He could have gotten some more challenging scripts for his 007 movies but they did offer great fun after all.
  • Posts: 498
    I found the Brosnan movies fun. :).
    He gets slated quite often over here.
  • 002002
    Posts: 581
    it would have been brilliant if Bronsna got the scripts that match the standard that Craig has...its just a shame my only hope is that one day soon that Brosnan does a James Bondish NSNA type spy film
  • Posts: 15,124
    002 wrote:
    it would have been brilliant if Bronsna got the scripts that match the standard that Craig has...its just a shame my only hope is that one day soon that Brosnan does a James Bondish NSNA type spy film

    Brosnan did not have the quality of the scripts Craig had, but he could have improved some of the material he worked on. I wouldn't have expect him to improve DAD, but he was the established Bond, he was popular, the viewers were ready to follow him so to speak, at some point he could have asked for some better dialogues, particularly in TND and TWINE, which could have been much better than they were.
  • Posts: 1,970
    I thought Pierce was a great Bond and i always said the biggest mistake of the franchise was not having a 5th Pierce Brosnan Bond Film. He deserved a better send off then DAD
  • edited March 2013 Posts: 12,837
    People seem to hate Brosnan just because he never drastically changed the franchise, but why did he have to?

    He's a good actor (not the best actor to take the role but he's given some great performances in his career) who helped to put new life into the series and who helped to keep it going.

    No his films weren't groundbreaking or arty but he bought Bond into the 90s and who I think starred in a classic Bond flick followed by two enjoyable movies (TWINE I especially rate highly) and a crap one. Not a bad track record really.

    EON f***ed up royally with Die Another Day and Brosnan was the scapegoat for that, so when they changed the direction completely they ditched him (somebody on here made a brilliant comparison, it's like the FA sacking a manager). It's a shame because he deserved a FYEO for his last one, a good back to earth movie after DAD. Even if you don't like him his casting really helped the franchise so for that I think he deserved a better send off.

    Brosnan's Bond was a cool, flashy, charismatic action hero who was extremely confident (bordering on cockyness), charming and watchable. If you're a miserable git, a Fleming purist or just not a fan of that style of Bond then fine, but I really liked his Bond and I think he gets bashed way too often on here.
  • Posts: 15,124
    I think Brosnan was good for most of his Bond tenure, with the material he had, but as he was a limited actor he never rose to greatness as Bond. That said outside of Bond he often chose very good projects. I don't blame him for DAD, I blame mainly the director, but it is not scapegoating to say that Brosnan was getting old then to play Bond, so I doubt a fifth movie would have worked.
  • edited March 2013 Posts: 12,837
    Ludovico wrote:
    That said outside of Bond he often chose very good projects.

    Yeah, I haven't seen Lazenby or Moore in much outside of Bond at all. Daltons done some good films, Craig has also done some good movies and some good TV work (Our Friends In The North was fantastic, Layer Cake was good), but I think he's made some poor choices lately (Cowboys n Aliens was poor and that movie with his wife was meant to be pretty crap too).

    Brosnan and Connery I think are the best when it comes to work outside of Bond. Connery's career is legendary and Brosnan has picked some very good films over the last 20 years or so (Thomas Crown, Madator, Ghost Writer, etc).
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    chrisisall wrote:
    doubleoego wrote:
    I hated how Bond fell so in love with Elektra over a computer monitor. Jeez.

    And how he didn't with Severine was cool, right?

    Well, yeah. It would have been stupid for Bond to fall in love with Severine. He knew her for 5 minutes. That's even more time than Brosnan spent looking at a computer monitor and falling in love with Elektra.
  • Posts: 278
    I don't feel PB as a fall guy. 4 films is until now the 3rd highest, he more than earned his place in Bond history and there is no question that when he's onscreen, he is Bond.

    What I do feel though is that his scripts were let down with poor characters and writing. Don't forget, until GEYE, Bond wasn't around for 6 years so the first film was to see if the public still wanted Bond, the second to see if it was a fluke and the 3rd film, they seem to want to try and go the emotional route, but don't have the balls to go all of the way as the dye had been set. The 4th is just trying to pay a 40 year homage and turned out a step too far.

    I don't think that BB and MGW had the confidence with GEYE to do what they did with CR and played it safe (especially after general public reaction to LTK). At least they acknowledged after DAD that they had to go in a different direction and by that time PB was too old for what they wanted.

    Bonds go through different lifecycles (usually because of the actors age) and I'm sure that we'll have the same conversation again after DC.
  • edited March 2013 Posts: 498

    but I think he's made some poor choices lately (Cowboys n Aliens was poor and that movie with his wife was meant to be pretty crap too).

    People barely even know about the movie with his wife !

    I haven't watched Cowboys though, Have been meaning to do so for a while.
  • edited March 2013 Posts: 2,081
    Skyfail wrote:

    but I think he's made some poor choices lately (Cowboys n Aliens was poor and that movie with his wife was meant to be pretty crap too).

    People barely even know about the movie with his wife !

    I haven't watched Cowboys though, Have been meaning to do so for a while.

    It's called Dream House, and it's not that bad, but not great, either. I wouldn't classify that as a "poor choice" by Daniel or the other actors (Rachel Weisz and Naomi Watts being the other stars). The story seems quite interesting, the cast is good, and the director is of Oscar caliber (nominated several times) and has made some great movies. It was a case of the producing side shooting themselves in the foot, clashing with the director on set about the script and production. Eventually the director and the actors even refused to promote the product, none of them happy with it. If the people on the creative side of the equation had been left to make the movie they wanted and tried to make I'm sure it would have been a lot better, it certainly had potential.

    If we're talking of post-being-cast-as-Bond time, I thought Defiance was fantastic, though, and Daniel is great in it. Tattoo and Flashbacks are good, too. And Tintin. :D

    As for Pierce, I don't get the whole "fall guy" idea. He was a popular Bond, and is surely both more famous and richer than he'd otherwise be. What's to complain about (by him or his fans)? Not everyone liked him as Bond, but that happens with each new actor. Not everyone liked the movies, but that will always be the case, as well. Many people did/do like them, too. 4 Bond movies is not bad. It's not like he got unfairly kicked out after 1 or 2, or that he's been slagged off by the producers after he was gone, or anything, quite the contrary. He was successful as Bond - even if not to everyone's tastes, but no-one is - and made films that were successful - even if not to everyone's tastes, but none are. So... a fall guy? No.

  • Posts: 498
    Tuulia wrote:
    If the people on the creative side of the equation had been left to make the movie they wanted and tried to make I'm sure it would have been a lot better, it certainly had potential.

    MGW :P


    The Girl with the dragon tattoo was Fantastic !
    I wish , I just really wish Bond24 has the girl with the dragon tattoo vibe at the centre of the film.
    That beautiful modern European feel , Just love it!

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