The curse of the second movie?

2

Comments

  • Posts: 6,432
    Not forgetting Star Trek Wrath of Khan and Godfather Part 2. :-)
  • I think that if there's any pattern here at all, it's because in a second go-round with a new leading man, the film-makers are still trying to find the right tone for each interpretation of Bond. One of the most unfortunate moments in TMWTGG is when Bond slaps Andrea around to get information from her -- very out of character for Moore's Bond, and a mistake that wouldn't be made again! LTK was a step too far in Dalton's campaign to "toughen up" the Bond series after the lighter, campy Bond that Moore had established so successfully, and the public just wasn't ready for it. (Dalton's Bond is seeing a reappraisal these days, primarily because Craig's grittier interpretation of the character has made Dalton's efforts seem almost prescient.) QoS suffered from a weak script and poor direction. No further explanation required. And I quite liked TND -- if this outing suffers at all, it's only because its predecessor, GE, was so bloody brilliant!
  • Posts: 5,634
    Worse second movie I ever saw was the one after Dumb and Dumber, released about 10 years ago. It was so bad I can't even remember the title of it, but Jim Carrey and Jeff Daniels weren't even in it. It was a worse second release than Robocop 2 - it was that bad
  • Posts: 1,052
    I think the second films may have suffered in comparison on first release and then these films are just believed to be poor due to media and non fan reviews etc.

    TMWTGG is a personal favrouite of mine and I know quite a few other on here are very fond of it, also LTK is another which I am a big fan of and It seems the circumstances surrounding it's release have created the myth that it is a rubbish film. TND, for me maybe the best of the Brosnan era and there others who feel the same.

    QOS is pretty low in my rankings but it has it moments and was still part of establishing Craig as Bond, but again there are plenty who really rate it.
  • Jazz007Jazz007 Minnesota
    Posts: 257
    I don't know if it's a "curse" if one thinks FRWL isn't as good as DN, LTK isn't as good as TLD and/or QOS isn't as good as CR if one finds all of the films in question to be highly enjoyable and well made.

    And for the record, I find TMWTGG to be far superior to the greatly flawed (but still fun) LALD. There goes your curse.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Jazz007 wrote:
    I don't know if it's a "curse" if one thinks FRWL isn't as good as DN, LTK isn't as good as TLD and/or QOS isn't as good as CR if one finds all of the films in question to be highly enjoyable and well made.

    And for the record, I find TMWTGG to be far superior to the greatly flawed (but still fun) LALD. There goes your curse.

    Again, I considered FRWL as an exception and I said this is regardless of personal preferences. This is how the movies were perceived upon release.
  • Jazz007Jazz007 Minnesota
    Posts: 257
    Ludovico wrote:
    Jazz007 wrote:
    I don't know if it's a "curse" if one thinks FRWL isn't as good as DN, LTK isn't as good as TLD and/or QOS isn't as good as CR if one finds all of the films in question to be highly enjoyable and well made.

    And for the record, I find TMWTGG to be far superior to the greatly flawed (but still fun) LALD. There goes your curse.

    Again, I considered FRWL as an exception and I said this is regardless of personal preferences. This is how the movies were perceived upon release.

    The movies were perceived upon release by personal preferences!
  • Posts: 15,125
    Jazz007 wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    Jazz007 wrote:
    I don't know if it's a "curse" if one thinks FRWL isn't as good as DN, LTK isn't as good as TLD and/or QOS isn't as good as CR if one finds all of the films in question to be highly enjoyable and well made.

    And for the record, I find TMWTGG to be far superior to the greatly flawed (but still fun) LALD. There goes your curse.

    Again, I considered FRWL as an exception and I said this is regardless of personal preferences. This is how the movies were perceived upon release.

    The movies were perceived upon release by personal preferences!

    How they were generally perceived. I personally enjoyed QOS, I don't think it was nearly as bad as some critics said it was, I certainly find some detractors of it here way unfair, especially looking at how TSWLM (for example) is praised. But it had mixed reviews upon release and it was generally considered much weaker than CR. Like the other second movies, with the exception of FRWL.
  • Posts: 5,634
    If they had slowed things down a little, I feel it would of been much more enjoyable. Things move around at a frantic pace, and it can be hard for the viewer to keep up often, I found
  • edited March 2013 Posts: 1,817
    0013 wrote:
    We could safely say that for actors with 3 or more movies the last one is the worst one. And I'm sorry for Craig because of this "law".

    You don't actually believe in this mumbo-jumbo do you? It is just a coincidence, where most of the actor's final films weren't that great critically. There is not a curse in any sense, especially when considering that whether or not the Bond films are hailed critically they are a financial success even at their worst.

    Giving the small number of observations it could be a coincidence of course. But even if it isn't, there nothing mystical in assuming that the last movies are the worst ones because of the fatigue of the character and the story. Also the causality could be reversed in some cases: they are the last ones because are the worst.
    The thing Bond 25 (Craig's last one) will give us a clue to reinforce or refute the "pattern".
  • Posts: 12,837
    Scream 2

    I thought that was a poor effort after the first one. But then the only Scream movies I really like are 1 and 4. The 3rd is ok too I suppose.
  • Posts: 1,708
    T2 , another great one.......
  • 002002
    Posts: 581
    The Last Film Curse is real i mean look at:

    Connery- Never Say Never Agian (or Diamonds are Forever if you are a Purist Fan)

    Moore- A View to A Kill

    Brosnan- Die Another Day (Though this could be undercut by the fact that Brosnans last performance as Bond was in Everything or Nothing but ill let you decided for yourself)
  • Posts: 15,125
    Tracy wrote:
    T2 , another great one.......

    Technically, maybe, but I always thought it was just a rehash of the first one: exact same story, with Arnie in a reversed role.
  • QsAssistantQsAssistant All those moments lost in time... like tears in rain
    Posts: 1,812
    I don't think there's any kind of curse. People just usually feel that the second isn't as good as the first when the first is such a great movie. I love FRWL, TMWTGG, LTK, TND, and QOS. While LTK and QOS don't really feel much like a Bond movie they are still good movies.
  • Posts: 1,708
    Home Alone 2 is a rehash too ;)
  • Posts: 5,634
    Ludovico wrote:
    Tracy wrote:
    T2 , another great one.......

    Technically, maybe, but I always thought it was just a rehash of the first one: exact same story, with Arnie in a reversed role.

    T2 Judgment Day was awful. If it wasn't bad enough having Schwarzenegger tweaked to be a 'good' terminator, then that annoying kid (John Connor) throughout, just about did it for me. Easily one of the most irritating characters ever, in a movie release. The best thing about it was Robert Patrick's rival terminator T-1000, and apart from one or two decent action sequences, the film was a real disappointment, and nothing like the original. Having Schwarzenegger return to help Sarah Connor, this time, as a friendly and benevolent cyborg, just about left it dead in the water right from the off. I don't know what they were thinking of, and it's almost an insult to the great release that was the first one from 1984
  • Posts: 7,653
    Ludovico wrote:
    Tracy wrote:
    T2 , another great one.......

    Technically, maybe, but I always thought it was just a rehash of the first one: exact same story, with Arnie in a reversed role.

    T2 Judgment Day was awful. If it wasn't bad enough having Schwarzenegger tweaked to be a 'good' terminator, then that annoying kid (John Connor) throughout, just about did it for me. Easily one of the most irritating characters ever, in a movie release. The best thing about it was Robert Patrick's rival terminator T-1000, and apart from one or two decent action sequences, the film was a real disappointment, and nothing like the original. Having Schwarzenegger return to help Sarah Connor, this time, as a friendly and benevolent cyborg, just about left it dead in the water right from the off. I don't know what they were thinking of, and it's almost an insult to the great release that was the first one from 1984

    It is still today one of biggest actioners and another big step towards improved CGI technics used by the Director Cameron to enhance his movie, something he has always done so. With T2 JC created two movies that completed eachother while the later Terminator movies always lacked the cohesion the first two movies did show. While T1 was a smallish actioner with a dark tale, T2 was the big actioner with a similar dark tale. Both tales about good and bad and humanity.

    the later movies lacked a strong morale, guidance by JC, even if the tv series did go into a direction that was very promesing.


  • Posts: 5,634
    Cameron puzzles me. He can put together, loud, expensive, extravagant, standout and incredible movie releases (T2, Titanic, True Lies and Avatar) for example, but I always see them as disappointing, or too much hyperbole. Certainly not as great or superlative as some see them as. Even so, it's a name I have considered for a future (or even past) Bond release. Like him or not, it's a name that's hard to ignore
  • Posts: 7,653
    Cameron puzzles me. He can put together, loud, expensive, extravagant, standout and incredible movie releases (T2, Titanic, True Lies and Avatar) for example, but I always see them as disappointing, or too much hyperbole. Certainly not as great or superlative as some see them as. Even so, it's a name I have considered for a future (or even past) Bond release. Like him or not, it's a name that's hard to ignore

    A JC movie is best seen in cinema.

    He is a champion of cinema imho.

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited April 2013 Posts: 6,304
    I don't think it's a curse. I do think that extra attention is paid to each actor's inaugural Bond film (which is why DN, OHMSS, TLD, GE, and CR are among the best--not so much LALD), and that by the time the second film comes around, there is a little less attention.
  • Posts: 1,092
    There is some truth to what the OP is saying. I think it's inherent with all series. The first is good enough to greenlight another film and the curse of any sequel is that it most likely won't be as good. Maybe they relax a bit, maybe the pressure is too great, etc. But it happen with almost every franchise just b/c that's the way it is. There are a lot of reasons.

    For us, I'm glad it happens in a way. It means they put their all into that 3rd film for the Bond actor and look what we get? Some of the best entries in the entire franchise. It's like they realize the mistakes of the 2nd so they smooth them over and go full bore. Good for us I say.
  • Posts: 15,125
    SaintMark wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    Tracy wrote:
    T2 , another great one.......

    Technically, maybe, but I always thought it was just a rehash of the first one: exact same story, with Arnie in a reversed role.

    T2 Judgment Day was awful. If it wasn't bad enough having Schwarzenegger tweaked to be a 'good' terminator, then that annoying kid (John Connor) throughout, just about did it for me. Easily one of the most irritating characters ever, in a movie release. The best thing about it was Robert Patrick's rival terminator T-1000, and apart from one or two decent action sequences, the film was a real disappointment, and nothing like the original. Having Schwarzenegger return to help Sarah Connor, this time, as a friendly and benevolent cyborg, just about left it dead in the water right from the off. I don't know what they were thinking of, and it's almost an insult to the great release that was the first one from 1984

    It is still today one of biggest actioners and another big step towards improved CGI technics used by the Director Cameron to enhance his movie, something he has always done so. With T2 JC created two movies that completed eachother while the later Terminator movies always lacked the cohesion the first two movies did show. While T1 was a smallish actioner with a dark tale, T2 was the big actioner with a similar dark tale. Both tales about good and bad and humanity.

    the later movies lacked a strong morale, guidance by JC, even if the tv series did go into a direction that was very promesing.


    Technically yes, but plot-wise it is almost a carbon copy of the first. With an annoying kid, Baltimore is absolutely right about it. He's going to be like the sci fi version of Washington or Danton, really? I don't buy it.

    Anyway, back on topic, this is one thing we don't have in Bond's second movies: a repetition of the first. This is the plague of many action movies. Die Hard 2 had the same plot as the first, in a different setting, which makes the premise utterly unbelievable. In Bond at least, every second movie for the Bond actor is different than the first.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited April 2013 Posts: 6,304
    The real question is: is the fourth movie cursed? TB, MR, DAD. All are bloated. Hmm...
  • Posts: 15,125
    echo wrote:
    The real question is: is the fourth movie cursed? TB, MR, DAD. All are bloated. Hmm...

    TB is great. Classic Fleming, classic Bond.
  • samainsysamainsy Suspended
    Posts: 199
    OOOHHHH spooky License to kill wasnt that bad,but not as good as TLD,Always considered the 2nd movie not as important (even though TND was my 1st film 'cos it was my 1st) and QoS is terrible and boring not seen FRWL in ages so it must be good.
  • Posts: 15,125
    samainsy wrote:
    OOOHHHH spooky License to kill wasnt that bad,but not as good as TLD,Always considered the 2nd movie not as important (even though TND was my 1st film 'cos it was my 1st) and QoS is terrible and boring not seen FRWL in ages so it must be good.

    It is not about personal perceptions, but about general perceptions of the second movie. LTK is loved by many fans, but it was a failure when it was released.
  • Posts: 101
    It is also a failure now.
  • edited April 2013 Posts: 12,837
    It is also a failure now.

    I was about to start arguing but then I saw who had posted.
    Ignore this troll and his other accounts everybody. It's probably just Buttons again.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    Licence To Kill was never a failure, be it in 1989 or now. It was a money maker for EON and MGM, yet not to the normal standard that all had become accustomed to.
    The film whilst somewhat controversial has many fans. There are many Fleming fans who enjoy the inclusion of parts of his stories, whilst others feel the film is to violent, and far removed from the James Bond of old.
    I myself have always enjoyed LTK, Dalton gives a superb performance as a vengeful Bond, and the films grittiness, and wonderful villains make it a Bond film with a difference.
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