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*raises hands in air*
Very wise words Darth and I for one apologise for using language that is not suitable for what is a family forum - although obviously that apology only extends to people offended over the term 'blow job'. If you were offended on any religious grounds then alas I'm afraid no apology is forthcoming as I really couldn't care less. When people worry about me being offended then maybe but as long as any offence I might take is of as little account as sparrows tears as long as we don't upset the religious then it's never going to happen.
We were having a reasonable debate until the Billy Graham twins turned up but I should be mature enough not to rise to their bait I suppose as it always ends in tears and with me (never them you note - we must respect their beliefs at all costs remember) getting told off.
Anyway back on topic.
One thing struck me about this which perhaps shines a light on Fleming/Bonds attitude to religion (forgive me for taking the discussion in this direction @Beatles as I think the debate has moved on from the initial question about SF); when he's in a tight spot when does Bond ever ask for divine intervention?
Let me explain. About 10 years ago I had a cancer scare and upon leaving the doctors having been booked in for tests the next day (given that this was the NHS, next day tests indicated the seriousness with which the doctor was treating it) I was walking down the street and quite involuntarily I offered up not so much a prayer but more a pleading entreaty for God to save, even promising to go to church every week if he saved me. I don't know where it came from exactly, presumably 15 years worth of catholic brainwashing and looking back I feel quite ashamed at being so pathetic in the face of death.
But ultimately it was a fairly rational human reaction to fall back on ones training, as it were, in the face of death. After all the only reason religion exists in the first place is due to mankinds fear of dying.
So the point I'm trying to make is Bond comes way closer to death than I did that day yet I cannot once recall him asking for help from above. Yes there's the bit in GF when he thinks he's dead and in heaven (and even here the tongue in cheek tone of the paragraph is in itself perhaps indicative of Flemings attitude to religion) but there's never one moment that I can recall, be it having his knackers pulped by Le Chiffre or being at the mercy of SMERSH's top assassin on the Orient Express where Bond hands over responsibility for his life to a mythical deity.
Even when, for me, he's at his lowest ebb in DN's obstacle course his inner voice tells him to 'get on you bastard!' There's no hint of self pity just a reliance on himself to keep going to the bitter end. Is this what religion is then? Mere self pity and an abrogation of responsibility for your own fate? I think it was probably my motivation on that day.
And also in MR when Bond plans to light a fag under the Moonraker he seems more concerned with having a whisky rather than cleansing his soul by praying to the man upstairs.
In summary Bond never had the reaction I did when faced with death which to me indicates:
1) Probably a less strictly religious schooling and upbringing.
2) He simply doesn't feel any need for religion.
3) I am a far bigger coward than Bond.
Any or all of these things may or may not be true but as far as I can tell the character of James Bond never has the slightest religious tendencies.
Thinking about it I fear I may have dragged us off topic again as I'm sure there already threads about Bond/Fleming's religiousness.
Back to SF-
I'll call it 'baptism by fire-d upon'.
Worry not, @TheWizardOfIce. I'm not easily offended. And certainly not in religious matters. My religion is physics after all - the only one that's always right. Well, almost. ;-)
Well, in the case of Christmas, it was first secular, or at least Pagan, then Christianised, then re-secularised. But the way it is celebrated is full of primitive Pagan imagery. The mistletoe, the Christmas tree, the yule log, heck even the Nativity Scene (which is at least as much about fertility symbols than Christian icons) belong in a way or another to pre-Christian myths.
As for cultural Christians, nobody would deny this of Fleming of Bond. But then again, even Richard Dawkins says he is a cultural Christian and loves the King James' Bible as a work of literature, so this is not saying much.
So anyway, back on topic, SF has Christian imagery, even Christian symbolism, I do not doubt it. Whether it is voluntary or involuntary is irrelevant: what matters is that it is there. However, this does not mean the movie has much, if any, of a Christian ideology. Personal Christian moral seems foreign to Bond, to say the least and as I mention, he is in the eyes of most Christian churches an unrepentant sinner.
I must check with the great Calculator. His word is my dogma. ;-)
Careful you don't offend someone there Darth with your righteousness! Religious people are well known to be tolerant and would never presume that theirs is the one true faith.
Actually, the sex is not all right with me either- you just assumed that it was, and incorrectly, I might add. And also, I wasn't intending to cause a fuss over the blasphemy issue, I merely agreed with what was stated earlier by @LeChiffre, who was also not looking for trouble, and you made it a hypocrisy issue for the both of us, and with incredible ignorance, too. Do you think I watch the portions I disagree with, yet rant about it on the forum? I don't- I skip over the parts I disagree with; of course, you made another assumption that I was a "hypocrite". Quite tasteless, in fact. I'm surprised your comments have not been removed, since they are equally offensive as mine supposedly were.
You're of course entitled to do/think/believe what you like. All I'll say is that it's a real shame you're bound by a set of rules that in no way advocate your right as a human being to freedom of thought and action. A real shame.
So you've experienced both sides of the coin and determined that faith is the better of the two?
Oh and for the record, sex isn't a vice. It's the reason you exist.
Okay, 00Beast. I feel that you have had your response to others. But for this thread to remain open it needs to be on topic. The mods have stepped in. If you have anything to add about symbolism in Skyfall, please do. But we do not want this to be a thread arguing about religions.
Yes it will be soon if it cannot get away from the religious debate. Which we all knew would crop up at some point, although some decent discussion was had early on.
I'm sorry you get so easily offended. I'd love to know how my comments are meant to be offensive. If you don't like the sex or violence then why even bother watching these films? It's the equivalent of me sitting through an hour of the BBC's Songs of Praise then writing in to Points of View to complain about all the religious stuff on my television!
Oh and Judi drops the F Bomb in SF but hey, at least she didn't say Christ I suppose.
And you think I don't realize that? My goodness, I meant outside of marriage- and I think you realized that. Sheesh, I am in no way attempting to attack you. I'm only trying to have a little discussion about the beliefs already addressed. Please don't make it an argument, because I'm not trying to jump on you.
@WillyGalore: All right, there's clearly no point in discussing anything with you.
I'm not attacking you either. I was just curious to know if you'd experienced a life without faith at any point, as that would add more weight to your assertions. Just curious.
I'm not sure if there was sarcasm there or not, but yes, I do forgive you.
This is very correct and almost all of it German in origin. During Weihnachten, or the tide of Yule to other Germanic peoples, Mother Frikka gives birth to Lord Palter. This idea existed long before the Catholics, thus by default Christianity, claimed it for Jesus and his (ahem) virginal mother who was married- maybe Joe needed some Viagra?
As a baptised catholic and altar boy for 10 years (I'm sure the documentation still exists somewhere) that's pretty offensive to my faith Sir Henry. I would flag you if I didn't believe in freedom of speech.
=))
1st rule of religion: If you truly believe, no one can piss you off with their nonsense.