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I reserve a special place of contempt though, for anyone who hates any of the films 1962-1969. Of course people are entitled to not like GF, OHMSS, YOLT, etc, that's their right. But HATE? I don't understand how people like this think they are good fans, because without them, especially GF, there wouldn't be a series. At the very least, the film deserves R-E-S-P-E-C-T.
Again, this IMO is where Fleming and his publishers blew it. A deal needed to be struck at this point with the other two regarding the novel.
As a fan, though McClory was a pain in the ass. His injuction in 76 objected to the use of SPECTRE!? This is what pisses off fans. We fans want the producers free to use Spectre as they see fit.
As for the movies, Spectre was mentioned in 5 different films. Spectre wasn't mentioned in DAF, despite the presence of Blofeld, and I don't know why.
Re the novels, are you sure Fleming didn't mention Spectre in both OHMSS and YOLT? I can't remember. There certainly didn't appear to be a functional Spectre organization in either novel, especially not YOLT.
So are you saying McClory was OK with Eon referencing Spectre from 62-69, but not at any point thereafter?
Are you also saying that Eon could have used Blofeld in TSWLM but chose not to, because McClory wouldn't permit a reference to Spectre?
Did McClory grant permission to use Blofeld for TWSLM but not Spectre, or did Eon actually have rights to Blofeld?
It does seem that Eon didn't have rights to either, as Blofeld was never seen again (the unnamed bald guy in the wheelchair in FYEO, notwithstanding).
What bugs me as a Bond movie fan, and a fan of both Blofeld and Spectre as recurring entities, is that the roadblock to such continuity, does indeed seem to be that @#%%* McClory.
He stays on my hate list! Grrr!
I think that Eon could have used Blofeld without any problems in TSWLM - after all they absolutely had the rights to the character based on his appearances in YOLT and OHMSS (novels) but McClory was in a strong position to argue that he alone held the rights to SPECTRE based on their single literary appearance in TB. I don't know if he cleared the use of Blofeld though - I assume not - but it should have been an easy win in court for Eon even if he hadn't. My understanding is that Blofeld was going to be dispatched for once and for all at the beginning of TSWLM anyway hence why it didn't really matter.
The thing we can probably all agree on is that the history of the Bond films would be very different without McClory - if he had simply cut his losses in 1960, TB would have been the first Eon-produced Bond film in 1962. It might have been a big success and the series could have continued as it did, but it could have also gone very differently...
Interesting points @SirHenryLeeChing but I have to strongly disagree, I do consider myself a serious Bond fan yet I can honestly say I hate DAD. Dislike is a word I would use to describe aspects of some films such as TMWTGG or AVTAK, but even these films have redeeming factors. For me personally I can find nothing redeeming about DAD because it fails on so many levels and these failures are the result of so many different talented people all of whom should of really of known much better.
I truly want to be positive about the franchise and feel that generally I am, but it's because I'm so passionate about Bond that I care enough to hate it when the longevity of the series is put at risk by stupid, weak, unentertaining, disrespectful film making. In the past I've often argued for NSNA using the theory that surely one more Bond film in the Bond universe has to be a good thing even if it's a bad one. DAD though disproves this theory for I would far rather it had never been made than have to tolerate it as part of the series, so no I don't feel the film deserves my R-E-S-P-C-T and if that makes me not a real fan and worthy of your contempt, so be it!
Indeed.
Well I have that with QoB, the movie that should never have been made with only half a script, a dickhead of an artsy farty director, the editor of the succesfull Bourne movie, the stunt director of the same movie, the bad CGI where the franchise had done similar stunt before in realtime with stuntmen.
If we are going to pop off about what films deserve respect, first and foremost above all the others should be DN. Without the success of that little gem we wouldn't have any Bond films 50 years after it. The public reaction to DN is why we have everything that came after it, even GF which many feel deserves a crowning around here, when it is one of the least "special" of the Connery era when compared to the rest. Even to the casual movie-going public who may or may not have seen more than five or six Bond films, GF is the hipster answer for everyone's favorite Bond film it seems, something I can't fathom though I can enjoy it. Though, after re-watching it recently I did wonder to myself just how much I would like it without Sean as Bond. He instantly improves every film he is in, but if say Roger was Bond in it or any other actor of the time, I may not like it much at all. While I can appreciate GF's importance to some extent, I do feel there are other films in the Connery era and beyond that do the series better service.
Exactly.
And DAD made me appreciate more TMWTGG and AVTAK, movies I otherwise find among the lowest of the franchise. However weak they are, they are better than DAD.
Perhaps I am a tad biased, as Goldfinger is a top 5 Bond entry for me. It is a great deal of fun packed full of memorable elements, and I have NEVER understood all the hate it gets on these forums. True, Connery is not quite the ruthless character he was in his first two films, but when it comes to Sean's films, I find Goldfinger second only to From Russia With Love.
I think the 1965 TB is far superior to anything that might have been made in 1962.
But if Fleming had made a deal with the other two at least regarding the TB novel, McClory's rights might not have extended beyond that one novel. And his whole involvement with the film franchise, might not have been so acrimonious. As we've seen he had to fight to get his piece of TB, and it seems he then hung on like a junkyard dog, beyond the release of the film.
The question of Spectre, really is tricky. Fleming did drop the organization after TB, maybe by design to keep McClory off his back, but then he did continue with Blofeld, so it does seem that Fleming may have dropped Spectre, simply because he chose to.
Eon clearly had no compunction about playing up Spectre in their non-TB films, but mysteriously dropped the connection with DAF. Again, maybe they simply chose to, as post TB, Spectre was really a one-man operation anyway. Heck, even with TB, Blofeld ran the thing like a demi-god. The other members hardly had equal status. Spectre as portrayed in YOLT and OHMSS, was really just Blofeld's organization name, a criminal brand.
Not really. It just seems to me that GF is the cool answer to pick, because it is the popular choice. Again, I am not saying it is a defined truth, just what I have noticed from experience.
I said one of the least special, not less special or something of that nature. While I do like the film for many reasons, mostly Sean, it lacks what the others in the era had that raise them much higher. DN is a classic origin for Bond, the big first. That is already special enough, but add on Bond's amazing intro, Honey Ryder, Quarrel (a top five ally in the franchise), a great villain, exotic locations, and the start of many Bond traditions that we know as gospel today, and it is one of the most special in the entire series, if not most special. Without it, we have none of the others. FRWL is a classic Bond film, with pure espionage style, one of the finest in the genre. The film really tests Bond, and we get such amazing adversaries to see him go up against, including the legendary Red Grant and the first appearance of Blofeld. With some classic scenes, including Bond's deadly fight with Grant, one of the finest in cinema, the gypsy fight, the NBNW tribute and more, the film is golden. Add in Kerim (another top 5 ranking ally), the beautiful locations, Q's intro, and Barry's score, and masterful sense of suspense and its greatness is solidified. TB features some of the greatest tension of the series, with all the 00s coming together with massive stakes on their backs, one of the series most epic moments yet. Add in the brilliant Ms. Volpe as the queen of Bond villainy, Tom Jones and his great tune, the amazing PTS, Hitckcockian suspense with Bond in clear danger and some of the greatest underwater scenes ever filmed, and TB is yet another Connery era film that shows just how brilliantly special it is.
While GF does have some great moments, each iconic in many ways, these other films do it so much better for me and for that reason it is just above YOLT and DAF on the special scale of the era. DN, FRWL, and TB are simply golden, and rise above the other three in my opinion, all their individual strengths being a testament to that.
As a certain Mr Coward once commented 'No, No, No, No, No!'
The greatest tension? Are you joking here? 2 hours of Bond flouncing around in health clubs and the Bahamas? How close do SPECTRE come to detonating the bombs? Nowhere near is the answer.
Compare TB with the countdowns in GF, YOLT, TSWLM and OP where Bond has literally seconds to avert disaster and you should be sued under the trades descriptions act for misuse of the word 'tension' if you relate it to TB.
One of the bombs is retrieved off screen FFS and the other just grabbed in a fight by US marines. But neither of them have the slightest chance of going off anyway because get this the fuses are on the Disco Volante all along and in any case Kotze has thrown them into the sea! He's the real hero here and if he just phoned the authorities that he's dumped the fuses Bond and Felix could just rent out a beach lounger and spend the rest of the day drinking margueritas as a nuclear bomb without the proper fuse is just a useless lump of metal.
Even the most Macguffiny Macguffin of all time the ATAC generates more tension than this.
I'll grant you Volpe is superb and the underwater stuff is admittedly technically phenomenal even by today's standards although it is deathly dull and repetitious after 5 minutes.
To say it tops GF which has iconic moments piled remorselessly on top of each other like a burger off Man v Food is frankly risible. What iconic moments does TB have (ie moments that are still in the public consciousness today)? At a pinch the jet pack (which I've always found a naff scene anyway due to the horrendous back projection) but people would always list Jill, Oddjob, the DB5, the laser up the jaffas, Fort Knox etc way above that.
GF is Coke. TB is more Panda Pops Cola.
TB is not my favorite and I am mostly bored by the underwater scenes, yes. Volpe is great, though, and I like Domino. But overall a bit of a let down for me.
But I wouldn't say Coke; I just don't like Coke.
I don't know, maybe Kentucky Fried Chicken (GF) vs. barely warmed over and oil soaked convenience store fried chicken that was cooked 8 hours before purchase (TB).
And about Kotz getting rid of the fuses, wasn't it something he did last minute?
Maybe he did. If so we can add sloppy writing to TB's crimes as one of the bombs was in Miami but Kotze had the fuses on the Disco Volante. So how was the Miami bomb any sort of threat then? Were SPECTRE just bluffing all along?
I'm a fan of TB. It is the most mysterious of Bond films and has a tremendous undercurrent of menace. Excellent score from Barry, and I can't fault the acting one bit. Great credits, too, and I love the traditional Bond-and-babe on water conclusion.
The moment the bombs were stolen from NATO they are a threat and a very serious one. Whenever I always understood that Kotze took the fuses out at the last minute and as a last minute decision because things were going south for him and SPECTRE.
TB is actually my favorite Bond movie. I have difficulties understanding people disliking it that much. I mean Bond does way more in this movie than in GF and takes a much more proactive role in the villain's downfall. And I also love the game of masks he keeps playing with the villains throughout the movie. In Shrubland against Lippe, in Nassau with Largo. Always polite, the antagonism hidden beneath a veneer of civility. I actually think the quiet moments of TB are some of its strength. Yes, little happen in Shrubland, but SPECTRE is working a covert operation there. What does happen is significant and I might add suspenseful. If there is a flaw in that part of the movie, it is that we do not know why Bond is there in the first place. Oh and the relationship between Largo, Bond and Domino is also I think really well done, the best one between hero-villain-Bond girl we had in the series.
Aside from the fact that DAD sits at the very bottom of my personal list as well, and that I totally get the strong dislike for it because I feel that too, let me ask you this- are you saying you honestly cannot pick out a single good character performance or scene in the entire film? That's the correct definition of truly hating something, and even DAD's most fervent detractors here can point to the Cuba scenes with Bond and Raoul, the sword fight, the Frost character, as redeeming characteristics. Perhaps strong dislike is a better term? Even I can appreciate that.
Contempt? No, I don't find anyone who dislikes DAD worthy of that. Contempt is probably too strong a word in the case of this film. It is mostly a hot mess.
As far as GF goes, I think it's become fashionable for some to say they "hate it". Some people like to be contrary and buck popular sentiments. But I am sure that even these people could find something they like, therefore hate is too strong a word. GF is the quintessential icon, and everything Bondian. To hate it is truly pathetic, and yes you are not a good fan to me in that case. Like my opinion or not, I don't give a flying **** to be honest because I feel very strongly that people who "hate" Goldfinger or any of the films 1962-1969 is out of touch with the spirit of Fleming and needs to go back to "fan school".
This proves the point I am making. Personally, I would venture that the entire scene when Bond walks into the cigar factory and meets Raoul, and his meeting that follows regarding the diamond examination are solid all the way through. The torture scenes and General Moon's scene with Bond before he sends him back to MI6 is also solid. The scene with Chang and PFOD in the hotel. There is enough to reason that "hate" is a little too strong of a word and that there is some redemption in a watch once in awhile, albeit very little in the way of redemption.
Some may see this as overreacting, and so be it, but when we start to hate official films, we become no better than the anti-Craig crew on the DCINB board who refuses to even watch the last 3 films, let alone say something good about them. I don't want to see anyone here become as pathetic as they are.
We can add sloppy writing more over to GF, that is certain. Plenty of head-scratchers in that one...
I'm actually going to defend DAD as I really like this bit. The sword fight lasts about 5 minutes max, hardly overlong, especially compared to the Miami bit in CR or the boat chase in TWINE.
And this is a franchise featuring a jetpack, gadget filled cars, tarzan yells, an underwater car, Bond stepping on crocodiles or a CGI dragon to escape, volcano lairs, invincible henchmen, etc.
But a sword fight is too cartoony for you?
So you can't find one whole scene you like? DAD is crap but that's just ridiculous imo.
Not my fault if I cannot find a whole scene in DAD that is good. Blame the movie, not me. The sword fight may last "only" five minutes, it still lasts too long! They would have been stopped the moment things started getting nasty. And the whole "this place needed needed redecorating anyway" or whatever was a stupid line and a stupid excuse to give an explanation as to why the people there would have tolerated the wanton destruction of the club. And that's what it is in the end: the destruction of the furniture by two grown men. There is no tension, Graves spends a lot of his time running away from Bond while he was meant to be angry at him... Just plain stupid.
Yes, there were cartoonish moments in the past (but no, I don't count Bond stepping on crocs and CGI komodo dragons as cartoonish, they were perfectly justifiable in the plot), but that does not excuse the sword fight. Just like the fact that Connery was out of shape in DAF does not excuse the beer gut of Brosnan in DAD.
For the record, apparently the QoS free falling was done for real and then the SFX superimposed.
And yes, McClory is a douche and the true villain of the Bond series.
Oh, and TB is better than GF.
Are you sure about that? I dont count freefall done in a wind tunnel. I have done that myself but I would never claim to have been skydiving.
It really is not.