Does reading Ian Fleming make you a better person or worse?

2

Comments

  • 007InVT wrote:
    Fleming used this word a lot in Thunderball, referring to geology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggerhead

    Obviously, someone reading it today could be offended, but Fleming had no idea.

    The passage in The Spy Who Loved Me about a woman 'being taken' is a bit dicey to read too.

    Otherwise, he was a product of his time for better or worse.

    There are a couple of references to rape in CR and TSWLM that are pretty horrible. Also, I've just finished reading GF and Bond's (i.e. Fleming's) attitude to lesbians and homosexuality isn't exactly enlightened...
  • 007InVT007InVT Classified
    Posts: 893
    I guess that's Eton for you.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Bradford4 wrote:
    There is a danger to building yourself around a fictional charracter. Let yourself define who YOU are. YOU are special and the only one like you (i am speakig to all MI6 members). Those who take books like James Bond, or The Turner Diaries can be a danger. James Bond can be a bad influence. Drinking. Womanizer. Murder. These are not good things to emulate (but are sure fun to watch on the big screen hehehe)

    One word: catharsis. I do not think I could or should be like James Bond, he is not a role model for me, neither are Oedipus or Hamlet or Faust.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote:
    Bradford4 wrote:
    There is a danger to building yourself around a fictional charracter. Let yourself define who YOU are. YOU are special and the only one like you (i am speakig to all MI6 members). Those who take books like James Bond, or The Turner Diaries can be a danger. James Bond can be a bad influence. Drinking. Womanizer. Murder. These are not good things to emulate (but are sure fun to watch on the big screen hehehe)

    One word: catharsis. I do not think I could or should be like James Bond, he is not a role model for me, neither are Oedipus or Hamlet or Faust.

    I'd have to agree. Like the actor Jonathan Pryce (Elliot Carver) said, he never wanted to be James Bond when he was younger; perhaps his friend or something, but not the agent himself. That's interesting and blatantly truthful. I have to say that I agree - I'm about as far away from a James Bond-type figure as it's possible to get, I'd imagine. I'm even further away from, it than was the late great Bond scribe Sir Kingsley Amis!
  • edited May 2013 Posts: 11,189
    Well...I don't know
    007InVT wrote:
    Fleming used this word a lot in Thunderball, referring to geology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggerhead

    Obviously, someone reading it today could be offended, but Fleming had no idea.

    The passage in The Spy Who Loved Me about a woman 'being taken' is a bit dicey to read too.

    Otherwise, he was a product of his time for better or worse.

    There are a couple of references to rape in CR and TSWLM that are pretty horrible. Also, I've just finished reading GF and Bond's (i.e. Fleming's) attitude to lesbians and homosexuality isn't exactly enlightened...

    In FRWL Fleming (as Kerim) says and I quote:

    "Women long to be swept off their feet. In their dreams, they long to be slung over a mans shoulder, taken into a cave and raped".

    As long as you don't take this sort of stuff too literally (somehow I'm not sure claiming that you "were making her dreams come true" will cut it in court) I don't think reading Fleming will make you any worse a person.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Well...I don't know
    007InVT wrote:
    Fleming used this word a lot in Thunderball, referring to geology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggerhead

    Obviously, someone reading it today could be offended, but Fleming had no idea.

    The passage in The Spy Who Loved Me about a woman 'being taken' is a bit dicey to read too.

    Otherwise, he was a product of his time for better or worse.

    There are a couple of references to rape in CR and TSWLM that are pretty horrible. Also, I've just finished reading GF and Bond's (i.e. Fleming's) attitude to lesbians and homosexuality isn't exactly enlightened...

    In FRWL Fleming (as Kerim) says and I quote:

    "Women long to be swept off their feet. In their dreams, they long to be slung over a mans shoulder, taken into a cave and raped".

    As long as you don't take this sort of stuff too literally (somehow I'm not sure claiming that you "were making her dreams come true" will cut it in court) I don't think reading Fleming will make you any worse a person.

    I don't think Fleming ever envisaged Kerim Bey as a role model.. It's part of the rough, barbaristic image Fleming is making of Kerim. And that makes it interesting, as Bond finds him a very aimable man, whilst he clearly is some sort of criminal.

    On the other hand we all know Fleming himself had a bit of an'on the edge' sex life...
  • edited May 2013 Posts: 11,189
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Well...I don't know
    007InVT wrote:
    Fleming used this word a lot in Thunderball, referring to geology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggerhead

    Obviously, someone reading it today could be offended, but Fleming had no idea.

    The passage in The Spy Who Loved Me about a woman 'being taken' is a bit dicey to read too.

    Otherwise, he was a product of his time for better or worse.

    There are a couple of references to rape in CR and TSWLM that are pretty horrible. Also, I've just finished reading GF and Bond's (i.e. Fleming's) attitude to lesbians and homosexuality isn't exactly enlightened...

    In FRWL Fleming (as Kerim) says and I quote:

    "Women long to be swept off their feet. In their dreams, they long to be slung over a mans shoulder, taken into a cave and raped".

    As long as you don't take this sort of stuff too literally (somehow I'm not sure claiming that you "were making her dreams come true" will cut it in court) I don't think reading Fleming will make you any worse a person.

    I don't think Fleming ever envisaged Kerim Bey as a role model.. It's part of the rough, barbaristic image Fleming is making of Kerim. And that makes it interesting, as Bond finds him a very aimable man, whilst he clearly is some sort of criminal.

    On the other hand we all know Fleming himself had a bit of an'on the edge' sex life...

    Kerim certainly wasn't a role model I agree (neither was Bond really) but I wouldn't go so far to say he was portrayed as unlikeable or villanous - despite the hideous story he tells. I don't remember Bond feeling uncomfortable around him (other than during the killing scene) or Fleming giving him any negative descriptions. He was seen as a flamboyant, aggressive man of the world. He was an ally and we were meant to be on his side.

    Draco is interesting as he is a full on criminal whom Bond befriends rather than an official contact.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    BAIN123 wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Well...I don't know
    007InVT wrote:
    Fleming used this word a lot in Thunderball, referring to geology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggerhead

    Obviously, someone reading it today could be offended, but Fleming had no idea.

    The passage in The Spy Who Loved Me about a woman 'being taken' is a bit dicey to read too.

    Otherwise, he was a product of his time for better or worse.

    There are a couple of references to rape in CR and TSWLM that are pretty horrible. Also, I've just finished reading GF and Bond's (i.e. Fleming's) attitude to lesbians and homosexuality isn't exactly enlightened...

    In FRWL Fleming (as Kerim) says and I quote:

    "Women long to be swept off their feet. In their dreams, they long to be slung over a mans shoulder, taken into a cave and raped".

    As long as you don't take this sort of stuff too literally (somehow I'm not sure claiming that you "were making her dreams come true" will cut it in court) I don't think reading Fleming will make you any worse a person.

    I don't think Fleming ever envisaged Kerim Bey as a role model.. It's part of the rough, barbaristic image Fleming is making of Kerim. And that makes it interesting, as Bond finds him a very aimable man, whilst he clearly is some sort of criminal.

    On the other hand we all know Fleming himself had a bit of an'on the edge' sex life...

    Kerim certainly wasn't a role model I agree (neither was Bond really) but I wouldn't go so far to say he was portrayed as unlikeable or villanous - despite the hideous story he tells. I don't remember Bond feeling uncomfortable around him (other than during the killing scene) or Fleming giving him any negative descriptions. He was seen as a flamboyant, aggressive man of the world. He was an ally and we were meant to be on his side.

    Agreed very much on that, BAIN.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    BAIN123 wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Well...I don't know
    007InVT wrote:
    Fleming used this word a lot in Thunderball, referring to geology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggerhead

    Obviously, someone reading it today could be offended, but Fleming had no idea.

    The passage in The Spy Who Loved Me about a woman 'being taken' is a bit dicey to read too.

    Otherwise, he was a product of his time for better or worse.

    There are a couple of references to rape in CR and TSWLM that are pretty horrible. Also, I've just finished reading GF and Bond's (i.e. Fleming's) attitude to lesbians and homosexuality isn't exactly enlightened...

    In FRWL Fleming (as Kerim) says and I quote:

    "Women long to be swept off their feet. In their dreams, they long to be slung over a mans shoulder, taken into a cave and raped".

    As long as you don't take this sort of stuff too literally (somehow I'm not sure claiming that you "were making her dreams come true" will cut it in court) I don't think reading Fleming will make you any worse a person.

    I don't think Fleming ever envisaged Kerim Bey as a role model.. It's part of the rough, barbaristic image Fleming is making of Kerim. And that makes it interesting, as Bond finds him a very aimable man, whilst he clearly is some sort of criminal.

    On the other hand we all know Fleming himself had a bit of an'on the edge' sex life...

    Kerim certainly wasn't a role model I agree (neither was Bond really) but I wouldn't go so far to say he was portrayed as unlikeable or villanous - despite the hideous story he tells. I don't remember Bond feeling uncomfortable around him (other than during the killing scene) or Fleming giving him any negative descriptions. He was seen as a flamboyant, aggressive man of the world. He was an ally and we were meant to be on his side.

    Draco is interesting as he is a full on criminal whom Bond befriends rather than an official contact.

    And lets not forget Draco's thoughts on rape. Whether or not this is Fleming's view is debatable.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    You know, this is another area where I noted down the potential for an article here. There are so many and such little time for blogging. How sad it is for me.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    You should get in contact with @JamesPage, @Dragonpol. You never know, if you ask, I'm sure some of your work could end up on the main site, it's that good.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited May 2013 Posts: 18,281
    Samuel001 wrote:
    You should get in contact with @JamesPage, @Dragonpol. You never know, if you ask, I'm sure some of your work could end up on the main site, it's that good.

    Thank you, kind @Samuel001 I'd be very happy for that potential eventuality. I'd happily gfist an artidcle to the main page at any time. All they have to do is approach me with what they'd like written by PM and I'll be very happy to carry it out. I've just subscribed to the email feed for the MI6 HQ Magazine - it puts the JBIFC to shame from what I've seen so far.

    I have one question, though.

    Is the article 'The Genesis of Colonel Sun' the same one as seen in the Titan 2005 reprint of the Colonel Sun comic strip of the same title?

  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    I'm unable to answer that by this article says the one from the Titan 2005 reprint is:

    The authors chart the origins of the continuation novels beginning with the overview of Fleming’s last Bond story “The Man With The Golden Gun” and Amis' involvement, through to the publication of “Colonel Sun” in 1968.

    http://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/comic_cs_review.php3
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited May 2013 Posts: 18,281
    Samuel001 wrote:
    I'm unable to answer that by this article says the one from the Titan 2005 reprint is:

    The authors chart the origins of the continuation novels beginning with the overview of Fleming’s last Bond story “The Man With The Golden Gun” and Amis' involvement, through to the publication of “Colonel Sun” in 1968.

    http://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/comic_cs_review.php3

    Thanks @Samuel001. I think they must be one and the same, though. I can't remember who wrote the Titan one, though I do have a copy of the book.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    BAIN123 wrote:

    I don't think Fleming ever envisaged Kerim Bey as a role model.. It's part of the rough, barbaristic image Fleming is making of Kerim. And that makes it interesting, as Bond finds him a very aimable man, whilst he clearly is some sort of criminal.

    On the other hand we all know Fleming himself had a bit of an'on the edge' sex life...

    Kerim certainly wasn't a role model I agree (neither was Bond really) but I wouldn't go so far to say he was portrayed as unlikeable or villanous - despite the hideous story he tells. I don't remember Bond feeling uncomfortable around him (other than during the killing scene) or Fleming giving him any negative descriptions. He was seen as a flamboyant, aggressive man of the world. He was an ally and we were meant to be on his side.

    Draco is interesting as he is a full on criminal whom Bond befriends rather than an official contact.

    I'm not saying he was portrayd as unlikeable, on the contrary. Barbaristic isn't unlikeable, it's uncivilised. And I think that's a returning topic in Fleming's work. Draco, Kerim and even Quarrel are tough, uncivilised but highly likeable men with whom Bond can relate. Fleming does seem to have some interest in the 'noble savage'. But I guess that's just what beeing English was all abaut in those days ;-)
  • 007InVT007InVT Classified
    Posts: 893

    And lets not forget Draco's thoughts on rape. Whether or not this is Fleming's view is debatable.

    What did Draco say exactly?

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Does it make me a better or worse person...than whom?
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited April 2014 Posts: 5,080
    007InVT wrote:

    And lets not forget Draco's thoughts on rape. Whether or not this is Fleming's view is debatable.

    What did Draco say exactly?

    ''She explained to me later that she must have been possessed by a subconscious desire to be raped. Well'- this time he didn't smile- 'she found me in the mountains and she was raped- by me. The police were after me at the time, they have been for most of my life, and the girl was a grave encumbrance. But for some reason she refused to leave me.''

    Page 55, Chapter ''The Capu''

    I believe this is possibly what @TheWiz was referring to. But he has not been on this forum for a while now...
  • 007InVT007InVT Classified
    Posts: 893
    Does it make me a better or worse person...than whom?

    Than I suppose the average person on the social etiquette barometer...
  • 007InVT007InVT Classified
    Posts: 893
    007InVT wrote:

    And lets not forget Draco's thoughts on rape. Whether or not this is Fleming's view is debatable.

    What did Draco say exactly?

    ''She explained to me later that she must have been possessed by a subconscious desire to be raped. Well'- this time he didn't smile- 'she found me in the mountains and she was raped- by me. The police were after me at the time, they have been for most of my life, and the girl was a grave encumbrance. But for some reason she refused to leave me.''

    Page 55, Chapter ''The Capu''

    I believe this is possibly what @TheWiz was referring to. But he has not been on this forum for a while now...

    Yikes!

    We'll forget that one happened then.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    007InVT wrote:

    And lets not forget Draco's thoughts on rape. Whether or not this is Fleming's view is debatable.

    What did Draco say exactly?

    ''She explained to me later that she must have been possessed by a subconscious desire to be raped. Well'- this time he didn't smile- 'she found me in the mountains and she was raped- by me. The police were after me at the time, they have been for most of my life, and the girl was a grave encumbrance. But for some reason she refused to leave me.''

    Page 55, Chapter ''The Capu''

    I believe this is possibly what @TheWiz was referring to. But he has not been on this forum for a while now...

    Yes, and Fleming had Bond say/think some questionable things about rape and "semi-rape" too, let's not forget.

    As for @TheWizardOfIce he has currently "resigned his commission" on here, but he may well return at some point in the future. Here's hoping as his debating skills are much missed around these parts.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Dragonpol wrote:
    007InVT wrote:

    And lets not forget Draco's thoughts on rape. Whether or not this is Fleming's view is debatable.

    What did Draco say exactly?

    ''She explained to me later that she must have been possessed by a subconscious desire to be raped. Well'- this time he didn't smile- 'she found me in the mountains and she was raped- by me. The police were after me at the time, they have been for most of my life, and the girl was a grave encumbrance. But for some reason she refused to leave me.''

    Page 55, Chapter ''The Capu''

    I believe this is possibly what @TheWiz was referring to. But he has not been on this forum for a while now...

    Yes, and Fleming had Bond say/think some questionable things about rape and "semi-rape" too, let's not forget.

    As for @TheWizardOfIce he has currently "resigned his commission" on here, but he may well return at some point in the future. Here's hoping as his debating skills are much missed around these parts.

    Yes, I do hope so. When I joined last July, I managed to catch some of his contributions before he resigned. Very entertaining, and I'd like to seem him around here again.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    For a spy fiction novel to alter the personality of the reader, it takes

    a) a much more compelling and convinving author than Fleming

    or

    b) a very feeble-minded reader

    It is not like those religious books. No one is brainwashed by Bond books. I hope.

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Dragonpol wrote:
    007InVT wrote:

    And lets not forget Draco's thoughts on rape. Whether or not this is Fleming's view is debatable.

    What did Draco say exactly?

    ''She explained to me later that she must have been possessed by a subconscious desire to be raped. Well'- this time he didn't smile- 'she found me in the mountains and she was raped- by me. The police were after me at the time, they have been for most of my life, and the girl was a grave encumbrance. But for some reason she refused to leave me.''

    Page 55, Chapter ''The Capu''

    I believe this is possibly what @TheWiz was referring to. But he has not been on this forum for a while now...

    Yes, and Fleming had Bond say/think some questionable things about rape and "semi-rape" too, let's not forget.

    As for @TheWizardOfIce he has currently "resigned his commission" on here, but he may well return at some point in the future. Here's hoping as his debating skills are much missed around these parts.

    Yes, I do hope so. When I joined last July, I managed to catch some of his contributions before he resigned. Very entertaining, and I'd like to seem him around here again.

    I've talked to him a bit in private messages and he said he was just a bit bored with here right now and will come back when debates are a bit more interesting again. I've not heard from him since January 2014, though.
  • Posts: 4,622
    Makes one a better person. All men and women of good will, would benefit from reading Fleming.
    Ian was a good egg and he wrote the best spy-fiction ever concocted. One is at least a better person from the reading-enjoyment factor alone.
  • 007InVT007InVT Classified
    Posts: 893
    timmer wrote:
    Makes one a better person. All men and women of good will, would benefit from reading Fleming.
    Ian was a good egg and he wrote the best spy-fiction ever concocted. One is at least a better person from the reading-enjoyment factor alone.

    Well said @Timmer

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    007InVT wrote:
    timmer wrote:
    Makes one a better person. All men and women of good will, would benefit from reading Fleming.
    Ian was a good egg and he wrote the best spy-fiction ever concocted. One is at least a better person from the reading-enjoyment factor alone.

    Well said @Timmer

    Seconded.
  • edited April 2014 Posts: 4,622
    Regarding Fleming and his "rape" musings. IMO he was simply being provocative. He was playing up the timeless theme, that some women seem to want men to take them, not actually rape them against their will, but roughly kind of take them, and thus absolve them of any guilt they might otherwise have felt for submitting to lustful passion with barbarian men, against their better romantic natures. It's male-female sex fantasy, which can often get acted out, if the two parties are in synch.
    Fleming was not discussing rape as the violent assault that it actually is, and which has nothing to do with sex.
    He was IMO, using provocative language to explore sexual tension and dynamics.
    Draco's woman above, admits to "a subconscious desire to be "raped"" by him.
    Fleming does draw lines, maybe somewhat blurred, but the lines are there. ie Compare the Draco scenario, with a woman who is actually raped ie violently assaulted against her will, and traumatized accordingly.

    Fleming considered himself to have PHD credentials concerning the female sexual pysche.
    Dr. Fleming if you will.
  • Posts: 15,125
    It does not make me a better or a worse person. Art does not have to be, is not and should not be moral. Fleming is worth reading, just like Sade.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I definitily feel worse now.
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