Ken Follet on James Bond (Fleming Novels), Women, and Feminism

Comments

• chrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm

  May 2013 Posts: 17,804

  Perdogg wrote:

  “Bond has a different lover in every story, ....He is usually tender, romantic, and chivalrous.”
  "But on further study, James Bond's attitude is not a degrading one - it is a protect one...James Bond is a romantic at heart."

  If the above was not true, I would not be the fan I am today.
  
• boldfinger

  May 2013 Posts: 5,767

  At the end of the DAF novel Bond acknowledges to himself that he needs adventure. Though he doesn´t think of that in a female context, it might apply in that context as well. Bond avoids a constant relationship because of his job, because he is too warm-hearted to risk having his wife lose her husband or his family its father. Yet at the same time he manages perfectly to make that situation enjoyable.
• Ludovico

  May 2013 Posts: 15,125

  I read Ken Follet's Pillars of the Earth and I found him a very average writer, but he is spot on regarding Bond's attitude towards women. in fact I think Fleming's Bond girls are way more assertive and genuine as women than most of the Bond girls invented for the movies.
• Perilagu_Khan

  May 2013 edited May 2013 Posts: 2,483

  Sadly, the sloth known as the modern feminist, views male chivalry and protectiveness as misogyny. Yes, they're wack-jobs, but there you go. If you go searching for rationality among the feministas, you're bound to hit a dry hole--so to speak.
• Ludovico

  May 2013 Posts: 15,125

  Thinking about it, in Pillars of the Earth the female characters were often very assertive, sometimes to the point of being anachronistic really.
• Dragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com

  May 2013 edited October 2013 Posts: 18,281

  Thanks for sharing this, @Perdogg. I wish I had that folio to add to my collection. I love the LALD novel.
• myworldisenough

  May 2013 Posts: 1,143

  I am lucky to say I too have this superb folio edition in my collection. It has some wonderful art work. LALD is one of my favourite Fleming stories. I wish there was a folio edition for all the Fleming novels. As for Follet, I enjoyed reading his novels, Key to Rebecca and Lying down with lions, worth a read IMO.
• 007InVT Classified

  September 2013 edited September 2013 Posts: 893

  Ludovico wrote:

  Thinking about it, in Pillars of the Earth the female characters were often very assertive, sometimes to the point of being anachronistic really.

  
  Quite. The charge of dated misogyny is a raging debate. At face value, yes, Fleming's treatment and attitudes towards women in his novels does not fly with modern women.
  
  But is there not more nuance, irony and sense of humor about it all, for example in the names. Come on, Pussy Galore?
  
  Do we have to become closet Bond readers in fear of being labeled a misogynist? Where is the line in the sand?
  
  I certainly would not go around quoting certain lines in public and what if my only interest in the books was just to read a good thriller? Can't I?
  
  Do any other modern day thrillers sail close to the wind on this issue as Fleming did?
  
• 007InVT Classified

  September 2013 edited October 2013 Posts: 893

  Here's a good article on this: http://www.existentialennui.com/2010/10/is-ian-flemings-james-bond-really.html
  
  "One thing to bear in mind here, I think, is that although the Bond novels are obviously a series, they're also designed to be standalones, and lean much more towards the latter design than the former. You can pick up any Bond book and dive in, with no knowledge of previous books required. Historically, particularly in the years before the internet made finding out in which order to read books in a series a hell of a lot easier, that's almost certainly the way they were read – bought at random, devoured equally haphazardly. In which light, Bond's romancing of a different woman in each book perhaps isn't so objectionable: for many readers, there wouldn't have been a previous book to compare it to."
  
  "Based on the novels I've read so far, you could, I think, accuse James Bond – and possibly Ian Fleming – of being many things: a snob, certainly; a masochist, definitely; a homophobe, potentially; a racist, casually – although again those last two are more a product of their time than an active agenda. But a misogynist? I'm not so sure. If anything, I'd suggest that James Bond is, in fact, an illustrious example of that most unfortunate and ultimately doomed of beasts: the incurable romantic. And it'd be churlish to criticize a man for that."
• Ludovico

  September 2013 Posts: 15,125

  007InVT wrote:

  Ludovico wrote:

  Thinking about it, in Pillars of the Earth the female characters were often very assertive, sometimes to the point of being anachronistic really.

  
  Quite. The charge of dated misogyny is a raging debate. At face value, yes, Fleming's treatment and attitudes towards women in his novels does not fly with modern women.
  
  But is there not more nuance, irony and sense of humor about it all, for example in the names. Come on, Pussy Galore?
  
  Do we have to become closet Bond readers in fear of being labeled a misogynist? Where is the line in the sand?
  
  I certainly would not go around quoting certain lines in public and what if my only interest in the books was just to read a good thriller? Can't I?
  
  Do any other modern day thrillers sail close to the wind on this issue as Fleming did?

  
  I think Fleming wrote very grounded, believable female characters. Just like Flaubert did with Madame Bovary (heck, Fleming's QOS is like a take on Flaubert's great novel), he pictured women as they were, or as some were, not as idealized versions of women or pure fantasies.
• 007InVT Classified

  September 2013 edited September 2013 Posts: 893

  ...and Lord knows men aren't idealized.
  
  Anyhow, are the films much better!
  
  
• Revelator

  September 2013 Posts: 2,918

  "Bond’s attitude to the beautiful women he meets is not exploitive. He is usually tender, romantic, and chivalrous."
  
  Follett is spot-on and earns my respect with an observation that cannot be repeated enough. The original Bond is not a cad, he is not a sexual predator, and he is not a macho boor. It's hard to imagine the literary Bond acting with the predatory force of Connery or the caddishness of Moore (in the Mankiewicz-scripted films). Unfortunately, this is something the public and many critics have failed to grasp.
  
• Perilagu_Khan

  September 2013 Posts: 2,483

  Ludovico wrote:

  007InVT wrote:

  Ludovico wrote:

  Thinking about it, in Pillars of the Earth the female characters were often very assertive, sometimes to the point of being anachronistic really.

  
  Quite. The charge of dated misogyny is a raging debate. At face value, yes, Fleming's treatment and attitudes towards women in his novels does not fly with modern women.
  
  But is there not more nuance, irony and sense of humor about it all, for example in the names. Come on, Pussy Galore?
  
  Do we have to become closet Bond readers in fear of being labeled a misogynist? Where is the line in the sand?
  
  I certainly would not go around quoting certain lines in public and what if my only interest in the books was just to read a good thriller? Can't I?
  
  Do any other modern day thrillers sail close to the wind on this issue as Fleming did?

  
  I think Fleming wrote very grounded, believable female characters. Just like Flaubert did with Madame Bovary (heck, Fleming's QOS is like a take on Flaubert's great novel), he pictured women as they were, or as some were, not as idealized versions of women or pure fantasies.

  
  Quite.
  
  
• Ludovico

  September 2013 Posts: 15,125

  And I will add something else: I think the Bond girls from Fleming are far more subtle, complex and engaging female characters than many of the superchicks from action movies, comics, etc. Who are either female empowerment fantasies or male objectified fantasies with a very light pseudo-feminist veneer. You give a bikini clad Playboy bunny a machine gun, she is still a Playboy bunny.
• 007InVT Classified

  October 2013 Posts: 893

  Ludovico wrote:

  And I will add something else: I think the Bond girls from Fleming are far more subtle, complex and engaging female characters than many of the superchicks from action movies, comics, etc. Who are either female empowerment fantasies or male objectified fantasies with a very light pseudo-feminist veneer. You give a bikini clad Playboy bunny a machine gun, she is still a Playboy bunny.

  
  Agreed. Smacks of the pot calling the kettle black in my opinion. I am also confused by Boyd's remarks. On the one hand he has said he toned down the sexism, fine, but on the other:
  
  "Sex and violence. By today’s standards the sex in the Bond novels is very tame and the violence unexceptionable. But when the books were published they were condemned for their explicitness. As schoolboys we thought the sex in the Bond novels was the height of erotic licentiousness. It reads almost primly now. ‘He freed his right hand and put it between their bodies, feeling her hard breasts, each with its pointed stigma of desire ‘(Live And Let Die)."
  
  Seems unfair still, to batter Fleming over the head for sexism in today's context of twerking, dontchathink?
  
  
• 007InVT Classified

  April 2014 Posts: 893

  Anyone care to comment more on this? - seems like it had some 'legs' if you'll pardon the pun.
• 007InVT Classified

  May 2014 Posts: 893

  Sam Weinberg (Moneypenny Diaries) chimed in on this topic a bit:
  
  http://literary007.com/2014/05/28/exclusive-interview-with-samantha-weinberg-author-or-the-moneypenny-diaries/
• Villiers53

  May 2014 Posts: 802

  007InVT wrote:

  Sam Weinberg (Moneypenny Diaries) chimed in on this topic a bit:
  
  http://literary007.com/2014/05/28/exclusive-interview-with-samantha-weinberg-author-or-the-moneypenny-diaries/

  
  @007InVT what a great interview - Bravo!
  I'm a huge fan of 'The Moneypenny Diaries' and Samantha Weinberg deserves huge praise for producing a spin-off series that appeals to both men and women.
  My wife was not a great fan of Fleming's work but she loved 'The Diaries' so much she read FRWL and OHMSS and discovered she actually liked them!
  If anything deserves a TV series it is this trilogy.