SPECTRE: Thomas Newman is Back! (appreciation topic)

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  • edited December 2014 Posts: 6,844
    Is there a place where we can discuss Newman's return and the music of SPECTRE while allowing for more openly critical opinions of Thomas Newman? It's a little difficult to discuss this latest news while walking on eggshells in an appreciation topic. :))

    But for now, let me say Newman certainly showed promise in Skyfall with his writing for the Shanghai/Macau segment of the film. Perhaps he was inspired by the exoticism of the locales and the more traditional Bondian elements that appeared there, which would seem to bode well for the direction SPECTRE is heading. I just hope he can improve in two key areas: 1) more appropriate and more confident use of the James Bond theme, and 2) please no more of the "noodlely" flute writing (it worked okay in parts of Skyfall, but there was too much of it and it just doesn't spell "James Bond" to me). That's as critical as I'm willing to go in a Thomas Newman appreciation topic. ;)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    It was never overused in the Brosnan era. It was used to it's fullest. 8-|

    You and I are in complete disagreement then. Let's leave it at that.

  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    Arnold used the theme no more than John Barry did... people always like to say that Arnold used it as a crutch..... if thats the case, then so did Barry.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2014 Posts: 23,883
    Barry used it in more creative and ingenious ways. On numerous occassions. Martin did too. So did Conti. That takes effort and that's something I've missed for over 25 years. That's what I want Newman to do this time. That's my point.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    bondjames wrote: »
    Barry used it in more creative and ingenious ways. On numerous occassions. Martin did too. So did Conti. That takes effort and that's something I've missed for over 25 years. That's what I want Newman to do this time. That's my point.

    Arnold used it in creative ways too. 8-}
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Barry used it in more creative and ingenious ways. On numerous occassions. Martin did too. So did Conti. That takes effort and that's something I've missed for over 25 years. That's what I want Newman to do this time. That's my point.

    Arnold used it in creative ways too. 8-}

    Well, let's disagree on that. I'm glad he's not back and I look forward to the SP score. That's my last comment on this.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Murdock wrote: »
    It was never overused in the Brosnan era. It was used to it's fullest. 8-|
    You and I are in complete agreement then. Let's leave it at that.
    :))
  • bondjames wrote: »
    Barry used it in more creative and ingenious ways. On numerous occassions. Martin did too. So did Conti. That takes effort and that's something I've missed for over 25 years. That's what I want Newman to do this time. That's my point.

    Rather off-topic, this discussion of David Arnold and the James Bond theme, but it needs to be said David Arnold worked the James Bond theme in many fun and creative ways.
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    Barry used it in more creative and ingenious ways. On numerous occassions. Martin did too. So did Conti. That takes effort and that's something I've missed for over 25 years. That's what I want Newman to do this time. That's my point.

    Rather off-topic, this discussion of David Arnold and the James Bond theme, but it needs to be said David Arnold worked the James Bond theme in many fun and creative ways.

    True!

    David Arnold's James Bond Theme from his album "Shaken & Stirred":

    Sounds rather lively, and slightly cheesier than his later versions. This more pompous, but still very "classic" version is the one that "SPECTRE" needs :-).

    David Arnold's James Bond Theme from "The World Is Not Enough":

    A lot of electro and synth sounds in it, fits the 1990's very well.

    David Arnold's James Bond Theme from "Casino Royale":

    Back-to-basics, very streamlined, and he could have used more percussion.

    David Arnold's James Bond Theme from "Quantum Of Solace":

    Slightly faster paced than the one from CR, more triangles and percussion.

    David Arnold's James Bond Theme from "Skyfall":

    In think they used the exact same version as for CR's end titles.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    Arnold was good at using the theme as traditionally arranged - but also breaking it apart, and using certain note progressions and stretching them into it's own piece of music - he did this a lot more in CR and QOS than in previous films...

    i just think for whatever reason, people don't want to give Arnold his credit, because he was trying to be too much like Barry.... which is fine - that's people personal opinions on the matter... but i think he did really fine work - and i hope he comes back to the series again one day..
  • i hope that Newman uses a little more of the Bond theme this time around - but doesn't over do it. What I would love to hear is a new version of the track 007 that was last heard (correct me if I'm wrong) in MR. I love that track and I always wondered why Arnold never worked it into any of his previous scores.
  • Posts: 7,507
    i hope that Newman uses a little more of the Bond theme this time around - but doesn't over do it. What I would love to hear is a new version of the track 007 that was last heard (correct me if I'm wrong) in MR. I love that track and I always wondered why Arnold never worked it into any of his previous scores.

    That is a good point! That theme seemed almost (almost..) as integral to the franchise as the Bond theme for some time. Its odd and a shame that it just disappeared like that.

    I doubt Newman is the man to bring it back though. He seems far to proud in his own craftsmanship to just reuse another composer's idea like that. It seems he wants to do his own things only, and its been speculated that was the reason why he was so reluctant to use more of the theme tune in Skyfall.

    I could be completely wrong though...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2014 Posts: 23,883
    i hope that Newman uses a little more of the Bond theme this time around - but doesn't over do it. What I would love to hear is a new version of the track 007 that was last heard (correct me if I'm wrong) in MR. I love that track and I always wondered why Arnold never worked it into any of his previous scores.

    You are correct sir, and it's been way too long since we've heard that bit of inspired music created by the one and only John Barry. A travesty that it has not been used in 35 years. Yes, I would love to hear that again,

    I'd also love to hear the Bond theme drizzled around the score, as long as it's incorporated inventively into the score and massaged with the title track melody in certain parts of the movie. Newman has the skills to do this. The question is, will he? He'd better IMO or else I'll have a time defending him to all the Arnold "lovers" here after SP comes out..

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2014 Posts: 23,883
    I did prefer the TB version of the 007 track to the MR version.

  • I think Newman will write a more Bondian score this time around. I really like the SF score and there are a lot of great tracks. I particularly enjoy listening to the track "Shes Mine". I'd love Newman to incorporate the 007 track into SP but seeing as no one else has used it in 35years I have a feeling we won't be hearing it ever again in a Bond film. Maybe someone might drop him a hint!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Regarding my previous posts on how to properly & creatively integrate the James Bond theme into the score along with the title track theme in a sequence, I give you a sublime bit of scoring by the grand master. One of his best, IMO:

  • @bondjames - the 007 track in Thunderball is probably the best version. It sounds much more dynamic than the other versions used. I'd love to hear it in a new Bond film. Someone get an email to Thomas Newman! Nobody could write for Bond quite like John Barry. We just hope that all future Bond composers embrace the legacy that Barry left while also adapting the music for a more modern audience. If only Eric Serra had listened to a few Barry scores before writing his dreadful score to GE - but thats for a different thread.
  • 00Ralf00Ralf Germany
    Posts: 149
    I agree, the original Monty Norman theme should be incorporated into the movie, but not overused. If not used at all, the movie loses a substantial Bond-feeling, especially during the typical 'Bond Moments'. I just have the weird inexplicable feeling that with Newman we'll never get an action sequence with the Bond Theme. When watching Skyfall at the cinema I cried inner tears of joy when the DB5 was shown and the theme started playing. But action scenes? I sadly doubt it.

    Here's my all-time favourite by David Arnold. It was excellent for the Hamburg airport arrival and Q's BMW briefing. The jazz elements just get me every time.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2014 Posts: 23,883
    TND is one of Arnold's better efforts no doubt, and I liked that bit you posted.

    The difference between the TND bit above and the OHMSS Barry post above does reflect the difference in approach between Barry and Arnold to my ears though.

    In your TND post, I heard essentially the Bond theme with some jazzy elements thrown in, and it sounded good, but it was basically 3 minutes of the Bond theme in a slight variation.

    In my post above of the OHMSS bit, you hear about 50 seconds of the Bond theme, then a pause with a bit of OHMSS's score, then another 50 odd seconds of the Bond theme in variation (with new, for the time, Moog synthesizer if I'm not mistaken thrown in), followed by a very dynamic, inventive, but not over-noisy action score with amazing melody.

    The variations were far more pronounced in the Barry score above. It almost seemed like a brand new tune rather than just an interpretation of something that we've been hearing since the 60's

    That's what I would prefer to see in SP ( admittedly we had neither in SF).
  • 00Ralf00Ralf Germany
    Posts: 149
    @bondjames
    Agreed. Barry was the alpha and omega of the franchise's score. I just think Arnold is the closest to Barry we had. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Newman has an ace up his sleeve and brings back the theme in an action sequence in some way. Do you reckon he has lots of guts? :D
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2014 Posts: 23,883
    @00Ralf, I think Newman won't disappoint this time around.

    It's quite an honour to be called back to score one of moviedom's most storied and renown franchises (on a musical level as well as all other levels).

    He'll definitely want to put his stamp on it though, and I'm ok with that. To me, he did a Roger Moore to Barry's Sean Connery on SF. He knew he could not imitate the master, so he wisely decided to innovate and take a different interpretive approach. At least it wasn't as jarring as Serra's very different take on GE (bits of which I'll admit to liking). Nevertheless, the new approach was not to everyone's liking it appears, which was to be expected. We're generally a conservative lot, us Bond fans.

    He just needs to put in more orchestra (like he did to some extent on "The Chimera") and weave in the Bond theme this time. I'm sure he will do it. There will be an ace. He'll want to be remembered for this score. SPECTRE will be a movie that all involved on will want to be remembered for.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited December 2014 Posts: 4,399
    i hope that Newman uses a little more of the Bond theme this time around - but doesn't over do it. What I would love to hear is a new version of the track 007 that was last heard (correct me if I'm wrong) in MR. I love that track and I always wondered why Arnold never worked it into any of his previous scores.

    i've heard two different stories behind why that special 007 song has not been used since Barry....

    often when Arnold was asked about using it - he would say something along the lines of, it's a very special piece of music, and should only be used when Bond is doing what Bond does in top form, and that he didn't want to use that song flippantly..

    the other explanation i've heard, is that there is some legal copyright or trademark that Barry has over that song, and the reason for it's none use has been because he simply had never given his consent..
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    As far as I know, EON do not have the rights of the 007 theme, and they'd have to pay if they wanted to use it.
    As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather have the OHMSS main theme return.

    Regarding Newman's use of Bond theme, I hope that he'll create his own arrangement and that he won't use just the vamp, but also the guitar riff (in Skyfall it was used only once, it was a subtle and brief piano rendition at the end of Grandborough Road), the bebop (pretty much absent in Skyfall, unless you count that cacophonic reference used when the Aston Martin is blown up and during the train chase in the PTS) and the ending part (Arnold used it brilliantly in tracks such as Whiteout, Pursuit at Port au Prince and Antonov).
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 4,619
    I would be very interested in hearing what @JamesPage thinks about the return of Newman. I believe he knows about the details of the behind the scenes disagreements that happened between EON and Newman during the production of Skyfall.

    In my opinion it's GREAT news that he is back. I really liked the score of Skyfall and I'm sure this score will be even better.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    While I have no problem with the score of SF itself, it's not very Bondian. I can't remember any of it to hum to in the shower like I can with "He's Dangerous", the Surrender theme in TND, "Necros Attacks". Heck I can even hum the QoS Opera scene score and that's not really Bondian
  • Posts: 4,619
    w2bond wrote: »
    While I have no problem with the score of SF itself, it's not very Bondian. I can't remember any of it to hum to in the shower like I can with "He's Dangerous", the Surrender theme in TND, "Necros Attacks". Heck I can even hum the QoS Opera scene score and that's not really Bondian

    I don't believe great modern movie scores need to be hummable. For example this is a masterpiece but not very hummable:
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited December 2014 Posts: 16,351
    I don't believe great modern movie scores need to be hummable.

    Why? Shouldn't a Bond score be memorable and hummable. John Barry excelled at this. The track you used as an example is nice, but it's not Bondian at all. It's simple background music. Music in a Bond movie is a character. It goes on the journey and tells a story. It is the star. Skyfall's music was a background character, It didn't have the grand imaginative sound Barry and Arnold created. It was simple and left much to be desired. Bond music deserves to be top priority not a last minute idea.

    Bond music should be Bold, emotional and loud. Not quiet, simple and loopy. Simple background music is generic and lame in a Bond movie. But something complex, unique and imaginative is what Bond music is all about. More Barry and less Zimmer.

    I want to be wowed by tense music. (The Skyfleet plane reveal from CR, that music cue made my heart pump. It was Classic Bond music. It made me fear that Carlos could destroy that plane.) Repetitive looped beats doesn't wow me. It bores me. It's pause menu music for when you wanna take a break and grab some snacks. Where's the originality and glamour in that?

    Bond music doesn't need to be John Williams grade, but it needs to be something above mediocre and plain. Arnold paying homage to John Barry was the best thing to happen to Bond music after he retired. Newman had some good tracks but the rest of the score was bare and lacking. And the fact he had to be forced to incorporate the Bond theme into the score disappoints me. He didn't respect the theme. Arnold did and that's why he's a better composer for Bond than Newman.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    @Murdock, that is exceptionally well said. :-bd

    Let's try to stay optimistic (because he is the one doing it ...) that Newman will deliver a much better Bondian score this time (goodness knows he has surely been told that from several sources). He does have the talent, but it takes more than that alone.
  • Posts: 158
    Mendas confessed to BBC radio 1 news that a title song artist had already be chosen and subsequently Sam Smith did not deny it was him. If they are following the same music production structure they did on Skyfall then parts of the song might already be written and it WON'T feature in the score unless they involve Newman in the next 2-3 months.

    If the song only momentarily appears in the film, then once again I shant be blaming T Newman. It would be completely unfair.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    No, I respectfully disagree. There is plenty of time and opportunity for the current title song to be incorporated into the score by Newman.
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