SPECTRE: Thomas Newman is Back! (appreciation topic)

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  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    @PeterGreenhill: Fully agree!
  • Now I have been reading some comments in this topic http://www.mi6community.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6289/who-do-you-want-for-the-bond-24-title-song#latest :
    QBranch wrote: »
    I thought GE's score was leagues ahead of SF's- if for no other reason than it was at least being original and unique. For me, the only real memorable music from SF was the part where Bond operates the digger and on the drive to SF.
    Getafix wrote: »
    Well, GE's score is definitely more memorable, in the sense that it's stand out awful. Probably the worst of the entire series. So I'll grant you that Newman's score isn't that bad, just the worst since GE. Totally bland and without even the slightest sense that he was interested in or cared about the incredible musical legacy of the Bond movies. Still, I prefer forgettable from Newman to the car crash soundtrack we had for GE. A real shame, as I think EON were trying to be a bit adventurous - Serra just did a really poor job. Might have been appropriate on a Luc Besson movie, but just didn't suit Bond at all.


    So now my question. Who actually wants to see Thomas Newman return as composer for Bond 24?
  • Now I have been reading some comments in this topic http://www.mi6community.com/index.php?p=/discussion/6289/who-do-you-want-for-the-bond-24-title-song#latest :
    QBranch wrote: »
    I thought GE's score was leagues ahead of SF's- if for no other reason than it was at least being original and unique. For me, the only real memorable music from SF was the part where Bond operates the digger and on the drive to SF.
    Getafix wrote: »
    Well, GE's score is definitely more memorable, in the sense that it's stand out awful. Probably the worst of the entire series. So I'll grant you that Newman's score isn't that bad, just the worst since GE. Totally bland and without even the slightest sense that he was interested in or cared about the incredible musical legacy of the Bond movies. Still, I prefer forgettable from Newman to the car crash soundtrack we had for GE. A real shame, as I think EON were trying to be a bit adventurous - Serra just did a really poor job. Might have been appropriate on a Luc Besson movie, but just didn't suit Bond at all.


    So now my question. Who actually wants to see Thomas Newman return as composer for Bond 24?

    I want him to return. SF has one of the best scores of all the Bonds.
  • Posts: 1,631
    I'm fine with him returning as well. He did a decent enough job on Skyfall to warrant bringing back.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,553
    Well, I've stayed out of this thread until now, as film scoring is not my area of interest in regards to music, and I rarely listen to the Bond scores outside of the films- but seeing as my comments have been re-posted here, I may as well put my two cents in.

    I honestly don't care if Newman returns or not. Yes, he did a good enough job to get the green tick, but why should good enough be enough? If he does return, I'd like to think he can show that he's learned a few things from/since his experience on SF. I can't put my finger on exactly what it is about his score that lacks, but there's a definite dip in quality in comparison to what we've heard in previous films. At the end of the day, I just want something memorable as a whole- something with it's own identity, as well as to hear some clever and varying use of leitmotif between the title song/Bond theme here and there where it's most appropriate. If Newman can deliver that, then kudos to him.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,195
    QBranch wrote: »
    Well, I've stayed out of this thread until now, as film scoring is not my area of interest in regards to music, and I rarely listen to the Bond scores outside of the films- but seeing as my comments have been re-posted here, I may as well put my two cents in.

    I honestly don't care if Newman returns or not. Yes, he did a good enough job to get the green tick, but why should good enough be enough? If he does return, I'd like to think he can show that he's learned a few things from/since his experience on SF. I can't put my finger on exactly what it is about his score that lacks, but there's a definite dip in quality in comparison to what we've heard in previous films. At the end of the day, I just want something memorable as a whole- something with it's own identity, as well as to hear some clever and varying use of leitmotif between the title song/Bond theme here and there where it's most appropriate. If Newman can deliver that, then kudos to him.

    This is well stated; I thought the score was adequate to good but nothing special. I want special
  • But in all honesty, did David Arnold do a very special job then in the past two Bond films? I know what the problem is perhaps. Nowadays action plays an important role in scoring. It's one of the reasons why we haven't heard some memorable Barry-esquema melodies anymore.

    And Allthough Arnold tried to tick that feeling in TWINE and especially his first film TND, I think in DAD, CR and QOS he was simply disappointing for me. In those films his music sounds and feels too much as filler music without having an independent feel.

    You can say that from Newman too. But for me to a lesser extent. I think he brought more multi-layered music with great electronic percussion and a more "richer" feeling orchestra. I loved his more "romantic" approach, with more strings.

    For me, David Arnold had some nice tracks in QOS, like "Night At The Opera" and "Mismo International" in CR. But overall Arnold's work disappoints me. Perhaps he should actually do more his best as score composer and "try" to do more films? Right now Arnold's CV looks rather poor compared to, let's say, Thomas Newman.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited November 2014 Posts: 4,399
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  • HASEROT wrote: »
    i like Newman's score for Skyfall - but at a time when a lot of people were calling for Arnold's head (John The Baptist style), and craving a fresh new approach to the music, what Newman presented us felt like a lateral move... I can't rate it any better or worse than Arnold's work....

    what I didn't care for during Newman's score was at times, he got bit too Hans Zimmer-ish - one cue sounded like it was ripped right from TDK films.. plus.. i don't care much for Zimmer style of up-tempo'd strings and drums during action moments... it seems that has become the standard, and now every composer during an action sequence abuses the hell out of that sound... instead of creating something original, every action piece in every film now sounds exactly the same..... call me crazy, but i'll take Arnold's action pieces of "Time To Get Out", "The Palio", "Target Terminated" and "Perla De Las Dunas" from his Quantum Of Solace work over the majority of Newman's stuff from Skyfall any day of the week..

    Again, I am not trying to say Newman's work was bad - I liked it... but IMO, I think it's right that Arnold come back for Bond 24... i thought his work on CR and QOS showed a lot of growth and maturity from his earlier stuff... now with having a break from Bond, I am curious to see what he could bring back to the table.

    Then we have a different opinion on this matter ;-). I always say: Let's agree to disagree @Haserot :-).

    Just to quickly react on the examples from Arnold you mentioned. I think those tracks pale, melody-wise, when compared with 'Backseat Driver' (TND), 'Snow Business' (tiny romantic cue in TWINE), but also with the action que 'Bloody Shot' (Thomas Newman, SF).
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited November 2014 Posts: 4,399
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  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    As has been noted on various threads, since Mendes is directing we can expect Newman back. I prefer Arnold, when all is and done, but I'm more than willing to give Newman the chance to improve for Bond 24. He has talent. But we need a good deal more this time around than what he did for Skyfall.
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 11,119
    As has been noted on various threads, since Mendes is directing we can expect Newman back. I prefer Arnold, when all is and done, but I'm more than willing to give Newman the chance to improve for Bond 24. He has talent. But we need a good deal more this time around than what he did for Skyfall.

    One should also ask himself: Did Arnold really outperform himself in every new Bond film? In my opinion Arnold never truly catched that crispy memorability of his melodies back in TND and to a lesser extent in TWINE.

    Having said that, I can't wait to see Thomas Newman to return.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Well as this is an appreciation thread for Newman, I won't go on and on. But I think Arnold really did improve over time.
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 11,119
    Thanks @Qbranch for mentioning this ;-). It seems that David Arnold basically rules himself out?

    http://i.imgur.com/fhWeCxy.jpg

    This is actually worthy of a news item on the MI6-HQ frontpage....
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited November 2014 Posts: 4,399
    (deleted)
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited September 2014 Posts: 14,553
    Thanks @Qbranch for mentioning this ;-).
    We have @marketto007 to thank for that. :)>-
  • QBranch wrote: »
    Thanks @Qbranch for mentioning this ;-).
    We have @marketto007 to thank for that. :)>-

    And thanks @marketto007 too! Have the MI6-editors already mentioned this on the Bond 24-newsroll?
  • Posts: 11,425
    I thought the CR score, in referencing the title track throughout, was very good and amongst Arnold's best work on Bond.

    I have never slated Arnold on here. I've always seen him as a moderately decent composer - not exactly inspiring but a lot better than Serra, for example.

    For me Newman is a step backward, or at best a sideways move. I can see how if you dislike Arnold, the blandness of Newman would be preferable. But I think for the vast majority of people Newman's SF score was just very forgetable. In some films, that might not be a problem, but in the context of Bond, I think that's a major failing. If you add in his refusal to work with Adele and Epworth and properly incoprorate the title track into the score (even though he had plenty of time to do so), and we seem to have a composer who is simply temperamentally unsuited to working on Bond. Bond is a collaborative effort - something that Newman seems quite unaware of or uniterested in.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Getafix wrote: »
    For me Newman is a step backward, or at best a sideways move. I can see how if you dislike Arnold, the blandness of Newman would be preferable. But I think for the vast majority of people Newman's SF score was just very forgetable. In some films, that might not be a problem, but in the context of Bond, I think that's a major failing. If you add in his refusal to work with Adele and Epworth and properly incoprorate the title track into the score (even though he had plenty of time to do so), and we seem to have a composer who is simply temperamentally unsuited to working on Bond. Bond is a collaborative effort - something that Newman seems quite unaware of or uniterested in.

    Also he seems to be ashamed of the Bond theme as well and didn't even try to make his own version.

  • Posts: 130
    Well, obviously I want Newman back. Exactly because I know that Newman can do better! Skyfall's OST was refreshing and different, but also had weak points. Newman will become better, just as Arnold did. And while I like Arnold's work, I think Newman has far greater potential to improve!

    From what I have gathered, people on this forum are exceptionally quick to judge. Calm down and give Newman another chance.
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 11,425
    xolani wrote: »
    Well, obviously I want Newman back. Exactly because I know that Newman can do better! Skyfall's OST was refreshing and different, but also had weak points. Newman will become better, just as Arnold did. And while I like Arnold's work, I think Newman has far greater potential to improve!

    From what I have gathered, people on this forum are exceptionally quick to judge. Calm down and give Newman another chance.

    He had a chance and he flatly refused to work with Adele and Epworth. The only reason I've read for this is that he felt he was to busy on the rest of the score to incorporate the main title track them into his music. This is clearly BS/the lamest excuse ever made.

    His SF score could and should very easily been a lot better, but his egotism got in the way. Pathetic. Not behaviour that makes me believe he deserves a second chance.

    Looking through the list of films he's scored, I have to say that American Beauty is the only one that I have any positive memories of, in the sense that it made the slightest impression on me. As I say, perhpas this is a good thing in some contexts (a score that takes a backseat and lets the images, voices and acting dominate), but it seems to me Bond requires a composer with a stronger personality.
  • Getafix wrote: »
    xolani wrote: »
    Well, obviously I want Newman back. Exactly because I know that Newman can do better! Skyfall's OST was refreshing and different, but also had weak points. Newman will become better, just as Arnold did. And while I like Arnold's work, I think Newman has far greater potential to improve!

    From what I have gathered, people on this forum are exceptionally quick to judge. Calm down and give Newman another chance.

    He had a chance and he flatly refused to work with Adele and Epworth. The only reason I've read for this is that he felt he was to busy on the rest of the score to incorporate the main title track them into his music. This is clearly BS/the lamest excuse ever made.

    His SF score could and should very easily been a lot better, but his egotism got in the way. Pathetic. Not behaviour that makes me believe he deserves a second chance.

    Looking through the list of films he's scored, I have to say that American Beauty is the only one that I have any positive memories of, in the sense that it made the slightest impression on me. As I say, perhpas this is a good thing in some contexts (a score that takes a backseat and lets the images, voices and acting dominate), but it seems to me Bond requires a composer with a stronger personality.

    I disagree here....again. I had the chance to actually meet Thomas Newman. And he's a very kind, humble man. Even a bit shy-ish. Newman doesn't deserve such disrespectful ranting. All Bond composers bring something unique to the franchise. So does Newman.

    I think Newman's score highlighted the complexity of "Skyfall" very well. James Bond has changed since Craig became Bond. The franchise is not just an entertaining popcorn blockbuster franchise anymore (like it was during the Brosnan-era), but also a movie franchise that, directly and indirectly, has socio-critical messages. CR, SF and to a lesser extent QOS all did address some geopolitical elements and had nicely interwoven themes (politically and socially).

    With such a new approach, I actually prefer Thomas Newman's classier approach of scoring. His scores are indeed smoother and for the more ordinary fans of straight-in-your-face action flicks rather boring. But....not for me.

  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited November 2014 Posts: 4,399
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  • edited September 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Okay, may be I was a bit OTT in my criticism. I don't know anything about Newman and may be he's just shy, but all the evidence I've heard points towards him refusing to work closely with Adele and Epworth. His score is much poorer as a result.

    Please, let's avoid parodying each other as 'ordinary fans of straight-in-your-face action flicks' or whatever. Trust me, I am not a regular action flick fan, so don't assume that's where I'm coming from. I have never primarily seen Bond movies as action flicks anyway. I do however feel that a Bond score requires a certain amount of distinctiveness and character - something that I feel Newman totally failed to bring to SF. 'Smoother' scores no doubt have their place, but if in the case of SF, smooth = snooze, as far as I'm concerned. If this is all the fans hope for/expect from a Bond movie, frankly it's no wonder SF did so well - people are very easily pleased it seems to me.
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 11,119
    HASEROT wrote: »
    James Bond has changed since Craig became Bond. The franchise is not just an entertaining popcorn blockbuster franchise anymore (like it was during the Brosnan-era), but also a movie franchise that, directly and indirectly, has socio-critical messages. CR, SF and to a lesser extent QOS all did address some geopolitical elements and had nicely interwoven themes (politically and socially).

    these themes, messages and elements you speak of have been present throughout the entire series from the very beginning, not just the last 3 with Craig.

    Well, I didn't hear "M" citing a complete poem in GE. Nor did I hear "M" explaining the importance of secret intelligence services as opposed to Richard Snowden's, Julian Assange's WikiLeaks scandal.

    For me, the Brosnan films aren't as "complex" and multi-layered as the Craig-films. Starting with CR Babs Broccoli and Michael Wilson truly put their own stamp on the movies, fully moving out of the shadows of their father producer "Cubby", who was way more conservative and who actually wanted to stick more to certain Bond elements. A "Skyfall" or a "Casino Royale" would not have been approved by "Cubby". Even Timothy Dalton recently spoke about that....
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited November 2014 Posts: 4,399
    (deleted)
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 11,189
    My thoughts regarding Bond scores:

    Fans seem to want one in the same league as John Barry. Frankly they unlikely to get it as Barry was unique in every way. The "James Bond sound" people talk about seems to be more like the "John Barry" sound, which happened to work so well with Bond.

    I thought the SF track was fine. Not great but it suited the film it was attached to and had some effective tracks (when Bond first meets Severine and M's Tennyson speech).
  • Posts: 11,425
    It's all a bit defeatist. 'We're never going to have another Barry so we should be happy with 'effective' but dull scores'.

    My only reason for ever discussing replacing Arnold was not that I thought he was really bad, but because I thought Bond could do better. I feel the same way about Newman, although more so.

    Yes, Barry was a one off, but there are other hugely talented people out there (some perhaps not yet discovered) who would relish an opportunity to make their names scoring a Bond movie. Newman gives every indication of seeing it as just another job. At least for Arnold it was clearly a privilege and great honour to score Bond. Whether he lived up to the legacy is another matter - he respected and understood the importance of the legacy to the fans, since he's also one himself.

    I want more than 'effective'. George Martin, Marvin Hamlisch, Bill Conti and Michael Kamen all did one off scores and (IMO) offered something more than purely 'effective'. Some of their scores may seem a little dated, but they had character and personality and really added something to the films. I guess you could say the same of Serra, except that his score was memorable for all the wrong reasons.

    Any way, this is supposed to be an appreciation thread, so I'll shut up.
  • Well as this is an appreciation thread for Newman, I won't go on and on. But I think Arnold really did improve over time.

    Indeed and at least his scores where somehow memorable. Something SF didn't achieve in the least. Instead it was boring,boring,boring!
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 908
    HASEROT wrote: »
    James Bond has changed since Craig became Bond. The franchise is not just an entertaining popcorn blockbuster franchise anymore (like it was during the Brosnan-era), but also a movie franchise that, directly and indirectly, has socio-critical messages. CR, SF and to a lesser extent QOS all did address some geopolitical elements and had nicely interwoven themes (politically and socially).

    these themes, messages and elements you speak of have been present throughout the entire series from the very beginning, not just the last 3 with Craig.

    Well, I didn't hear "M" citing a complete poem in GE. Nor did I hear "M" explaining the importance of secret intelligence services as opposed to Richard Snowden's, Julian Assange's WikiLeaks scandal.

    .

    Well,maybe it is because the Bonds of yesteryear didn't feel the need to PRETEND they were intellectual. Probably that's the main reason why they didn't feel as pseudo as ...You know.
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