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Again, in the Nolan trilogy every choice Batman makes carries weight and it troubles him to no end. He never goes into any situation wanting for anyone to be fatally harmed, even the worst of the worst criminals.
I was fine with how he left Ra's to fate on the rail. People call it murder, and they'd be erroneously incorrect. Murder is an act of direct and premeditated fatal harm. Batman doesn't move an inch, and he never would've been able to reach Ra's in time to get the both of them out of there before the entire rail system went down.
In TDK, he tackles Dent but never goes into the situation wanting to kill him. It is unfortunate that in the tackle Dent was the one to fall, with Batman falling down after him once he secured Gordon's kid. He wanted to take Harvey in and help him, not kill him, but his actions unintentionally led to Dent's demise. Nolan uses this opportunity to show a distraught Batman faced with the consequences of his attempts to protect people. A profound and tragic scene that metaphorically comments on Den't literal and figurative fall from grace over the course of the movie and it sparks the witch hunt for Batman's head.
In TDKR, Batman again doesn't go into the chase after the bomb wanting to hurt anyone, but it is correct that Talia and the driver died. Batman tried his best to stop the truck on the main roadway, but Talia lost control of the truck and accidentally drove it off the elevated roadway below. Nolan again shows Batman being put in a situation of immediacy, of getting the bomb. His choices are hard and fast, but his intentions pure. But as with Dent, unintentional death occurs in the scuffle between both parties.
People arguing in favor of BvS by saying "Batman kills in the other films too" miss the most essential element of debate and discourse: context. There are instances in many films with Batman that it could be argued he brings about significant damage to his enemies, but looking at Nolan's films for example, where all the damage is unintentional and haunting and important and distressing to Batman in the moment, it's plain to see that he's a different man than Affleck's Batman.
Affleck's Batman doesn't deliberate anything he does; he shoots people he doesn't have to shoot, blows people up he doesn't have to blow up, and runs over people he doesn't have to run over. He doesn't kill because he's forced into it and has no way out, the only way any Batman should be driven to kill; hell, it's like he even enjoys it here. As I've argued before, there wasn't a single situation in the entire film that warranted him being so lethal. He could have taken all the men out in each fight or chase without issue with unlethal means, yet he resorted to killing anyway. And the worst of it is that we never find out why it's so easy for him now, or why he has to kill in the most brutal ways imaginable, without any sense of mercy.
He isn't tortured over what he must do like Dark Knight Returns Batman. He doesn't shutter at the idea of using guns like the animated series Batman. He doesn't go into situations wishing no harm to anyone like Nolan's Batman. He's just an unhinged monster, plain and simple. I'll be interested to see just how badly they ruin Gordon's character next. The Gordon we all know and love would arrest this Batman the second he was within his sights for all the chaos, murder and terror he's unleashed. Gordon says all the time in the comics that if Batman ever pissed on the moral lines they both follow like Afflecks' version does so assuredly and absentmindedly in this movie, he'd make sure he was put behind bars for the rest of his life and punished for what he'd done just like any other criminal out there.
A scene for everybody's consideration that shows the failure of Affleck's Batman:
It's clear that the Batman we have in BvS is one who has failed beyond compare in his sacred mission to his parents. He's broken to the point that he thinks he's justified to go out on an uncommissioned, unsupported killing spree with an arsenal even the US military doesn't have. As Batman said in the clip above, it's too easy to kill and the act would set him down a road where he'd become the very thing he had alway fought against.
There can't even logically be a solo Batman film with Affleck now. How would it make any sense? The second Batman meets Croc or Penguin or Joker or Deathstroke or any villain in the movie, major or minor, he'd kill them. Why not? He's got no issue killing random thugs, most of which pose no threat to him at all beyond the usual threats he's always faced like guns and knives, and yet we know even Joker is still breathing. Why, if this Batman is so keen on the wild west theatrics and body count, is Joker still alive? He's a thousand times more worthy of death than everyone Batman faced in this film put together, after all. Doesn't make much sense, does it, folks? But nothing makes sense about this Batman or this universe, so it's hardly a surprise.
I'm taking a break from this discussion, because this garbage film and its garbage Batman makes me want to punch a wall until my knuckles are spewing blood. I still can't believe how much people are eating this movie up and defending it so passionately, when it's unbelievably pathetic flaws and lapses in logic run rampant in its every scene.
It's clear they're empty. He blows up a row of parked and abandoned cars to clear his path while the police try to secure Dent.
This just dawned on me while watching Superman Doomsday....and it makes me freaking mad X(
Deleted scene from BvS, possibly one of the new gods?
For example, in the "New Rules" scene where Alfred sees the "Bat Brand of Justice" headline, Bruce states "We've always been criminals, Alfred. Nothing's changed."
This would have been a good opportunity to also address how Batman has broken his promise to not kill.
Alfred should have added something like the bold text to his response. "Everything's changed. You've compromised your moral code. You are no longer the man swore to be. Men fall from the sky and god's throw thunderbolts. The fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness, turns good men, cruel."
This would help illustrate just what the death of Robin really did to Bruce. He lost his faith in humanity and doesn't believe that men are capable of good anymore, or at least capable of staying good and hence his mission to destroy Superman.
By addressing the fact that he kills early in the film, Bruce's character arc would have been more pronounced when he states that "men are still good" at Supe's funeral. It would show that he is no longer the pessimistic old man at the end of his rope, but that he has been restored to the Batman that he initially set out to be.
I watched Superman Doomsday. The much better story and true to characters.
This might be for you then :)https://www.change.org/p/warner-bros-boot-zack-snyder-off-of-justice-league
:)
I don't think they will boot him now, they start shooting JL shortly.
But I think the final BO of BvS and far more importantly the performance of JL Part I will decide Snyder's future with DC and even in the business.
So you're back to not liking this film again, @BondJasonBond006? Your fight to love or hate it is admirable, and entertaining to watch, if nothing else. ;)
While Snyder most certainly dropped the ball here so hard it broke into millions of other balls that also got dropped, the writers share equal blame, if not more on principle alone. While Snyder had his say as to how characters would be portrayed, Terrio and Goyer were the ones who ultimately created a story around it all, and what a hole filled mess it is.
I actually remember people involved in the project going on and on about how great the script was before release. Nowadays it seems like whenever a script is lauded by the filmmaking team a stinker is incoming. We should have seen the red flags earlier, but I know I was blinded by the boyhood love I've had for these characters, and couldn't fathom feeling how I do now.
It was hands down the worst theater going experience I've had in my entire life. And funnily enough, the best one I've had was for The Dark Knight Rises. I remember sitting there with my fellow fans in 2012, clapping, cheering and having such a momentously fun time experiencing the finale with everyone. And to think, at around that same time other fans in Aurora, Colorado faced their last moments alive seeing that film.
That had me wondering today, actually. What if a shooting like the Aurora incident had happened during this film's opening night? What would the reaction have been? When it occurred in that theater during TDKR, reports cited how sad and haunting it was for such a violent act to be staged during a film whose main hero always protects the innocent and despises killing. In BvS, however, with a Batman so open to violent, depraved acts, for a shooting to occur during a showing of it would almost be too scary to imagine, of fiction and reality meeting in the middle. The media would be crucifying the shooter for senselessly taking a life during a film where Batman does the same thing. Frightening, eh?
Just a haunting thought that was bugging me and one I wanted to express.
Reality finally has won this morning. I went through the seven stages of grief :))
After first viewing of BvS:
- Shock and Disbelief (.......)
Between first and second viewing of BvS:
- Denial (no, it's not true, no, it's good, it is, really, really....)
After second viewing of BvS:
- Anger
- Bargaining (you bloody moron Snyder!!! please, please make the Ultimate Cut be better, pleeeeeeaaase....)
Yesterday:
- Guilt
- Depression
(it's my fault, it is, why can't I see that it's good...what have I done...nooooooo :(( )
Today:
- Acceptance and Hope
The movie is crap, I can deal with it, there are other movies to love. Next year everything will be better, Justice League is coming, life is wonderful.
Which would basically make BvS the LTK of Batman movies.
A very good and intense Movie, but almost a non recognizable Bond Movie.
That was one of the reasons it tanked so hard on release
"Yeah now he is a hero but we all know how much a promise means in Gotham City how many good guys are left how many stayed that way?"
This is a batman who saw his most trusted friend (Harvey Dent) become a villain. And this might of happened a few times in this batman's history (Hush black mask and who knows maybe this batman also fought the court of owls) heck if all my friends became murderous psycopaths yeah I would want to kill superman too!
The only thing I will concede is yes I am adding to the story with my own view points and perspectives to build up batman in my eyes (and yes one of the things I loved about Quantum of solace was how mysterious Quantum was and how you could build up the organization in your own mind...and one of the things I hate about Spectre is how lame the mystery was resolved) but still it's a great film.
Though I am beginning to wonder if I am a batman fan considering how much I love it and how much everyone else thinks "If your a batman fan you will hate it"
Maybe because I grew up with Keaton/Kilmer because lets be honest here in my opinion (sorry brady) here are the statistics in my opinion
Keaton: Killed Joker a few Joker goons Penguin A few members of the red triangle circus game overall kill count from memory 30 I think
Kilmer: Killed Two Face and possibly a few of the goons in the batmobile chase
Kill Count from memory 15
Clooney: Killed the audience with his poor performance (sorry I couldn't resist)
Bale: Countless ninja dudes Ra'z Al Ghul Harvey Dent (and letting 5 people die due to the joker sorry comic book Batman would of figured out who the 5 were and saved them)
Kill count from memory I will be conservative and say 50...
Affleck: so far maybe 6/7 people
Like I said Bale murdered more people then Affleck if I had to count and we don't know where Affleck's batman is going he might be getting brighter and less brutal due to the justice league's influence.
The reason being Batman is 'shoehorned' into the Superman environment here, which in itself is fantastical and larger than life to an 'nth' degree. This may work in the comics but it's really extremely difficult to pull off in a film, especially when your big hook is a Superman vs. Batman 'fight scenario' (including your title). If they had madethis more about Batman working behind the scenes to try and make Superman weaker/obtain Kryptonite then that may have been more plausible, but once you put 'the fight' into the mix, then it's going to get ridiculous and bizarre no matter which way you dice it.
In a way, Batman (the legendary and most famous character bar none in the DC universe) was sacrificed in this film to support the Superman franchise. That's regrettable, but it is what it is. Superman hasn't really caught fire with the audience of late, so DC probably felt it had to take liberties.
As a counterexample, imagine if the tables were turned, and Superman appeared in a Batman film. That would have been a far darker and more realistic sort of movie, and folks may have been criticizing why there were no 'larger than life' elements in that film then.
---
I still think they have lots of options and routes they could follow with a future standalone Batman film.
Absolutely. And also to make this fight even halfway tense and believeable, the audience had to belive, without a shadow of doubt, that Batman was 100% in it to end Supes. It needed to be clear from the start that Batman will kill him without hesitation.
Otherwise everyone would have known "batman won't kill him anyway, he doesn't kill".
Batman or not Batman, that was one of the most frightening and intense moment I've ever seen. Batfleck meant serious business and I've rarely seen such a thirst for total 100% hardcore revenge killing. I don't even recall such an instance in the Bond franchise, where Bond was about to terminate a villain's life in such violent and bloody fashion.
I think you have put more thought into that plot than most blockbuster movies get these days. Plus your third act was great.
It is not perfect, far from it... but it is not a terrible, terrible movie. It has strong leads with good chemistry. Its faults are indicative of comic book movie hero obsessions on the big screen....
BATMAN VS SUPERMAN - Does SUPERMAN VII MEETS BATMAN IX deserve to be sent to The Phantom Zone?
Why did you say that name?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Affleck was truly terrifying in that scene.
I wouldn't be surprised if you liked it even. After all that negativity your expectations will be lowest possible I guess.
You have to look out for that sequence that starts with Bruce Wayne arriving at Lex's party with his Aston Martin!! You'll be in 007 Heaven! :)
Or they could have done the smart thing and made Superman be the one time Batman was considering breaking his rule. But again, he's got no damn right in this movie to get on Superman's case when he mows people down all the same. In his mind, only innocent lives matter, and anyone else lost their chance at life. Yeah, that's Batman all over. *eye roll*
The destruction of MoS only occurred because Superman had to neutralize Zod, and it got messy. Bruce somehow didn't get that or realize Superman's true intentions, and without any actual objective digging, saw it fit to launch a killing strike against him.
And what happens in the third act of this movie? MoS is repeated and
Interesting, @BondJasonBond006.
I charted the same sort of emotional roller coaster, except it all happened one step after another during my viewing of the film itself. Crazy, eh?
Honestly, when this film started up, I absolutely loved it. I was giddy and shaking like mad. The shots of
Then the Batmobile chase after Lex's private army and the kryptonite kicks up and Batman straight up kills people without a second thought. This moment truly shocked me and made me stand against him. This was where the knots in my stomach really began.
Then, in the scene where Batman rescues Ma Kent, I again couldn't believe what Batman was doing, shooting, stabbing and exploding his way through these men that were no substantial threat to him and nothing he hadn't faced before. Not to mention that when he shoots the Russian's tank at the end of the fight he easily could have wiped Ma Kent off the face of the earth along with him.
This Batman is a failure, no two ways about it. He has been so lost from his original promise to his parents that he now is able to murder people in the most brutal ways imaginable like it's second nature, and still manages to sleep at night. The Batman of the comics, if he ever crossed that line and had to kill to get out of a situation, would've sooner closed down shop and put away his suit for good when he realized he was no longer fit to do the work cleanly and morally.
This Bruce has pissed on the memory of his parents and that vow, and instead of quitting, just says "screw it" and goes all out in absolutely decimating people one after the other, acting like he's playing a video game and he gets bonus points for creative and depraved kills. Come on now, folks. This bastard is unsupportable.
Batman is known for brooding and doubting himself and his work, but what makes this version of the character different is that other Batmans don't give in to the pain and futility they feel to justify their acts like Affleck's Batman does. Batman often feels like he's not doing a good enough job at protecting Gotham in the comics and shows, but he's never let himself be driven to killing off the criminal classes to make up for it. He'd sooner hang up his cape and cowl in shame.
In Superman's case, it's almost even more insulting. Here we have the light of the DC universe, the symbol of all that is good and stable and dependable and honest in a world turned upside down, resorted to a figure of public hatred and treated like shit by a director and writing team who give him nothing to do beyond getting the crap beat out of him or being name-called and marked as a killer.
Worse yet, in this film Superman gives in to the public hatred, and begins to believe that he may be just what they all say, losing hope in the goodness of his heart and his mission, which again, makes no damn sense. In the third act, where this film figuratively shoots itself in the head, Superman
MoS Superman was NOTHING like this. Jor-El told him that though the public would at first misunderstand him, they would eventually join him and trust in his mission. That Superman would never have given in to Lex and become a bad guy. Superman is the pinnacle of hope, yet Snyder always makes an immense effort to give this version of the character so little of it. When we find Superman
The biggest failure of this film, amongst its endless failures, is that these heroes aren't heroes at all. They are distorted versions of our favorite characters reduced to appalling characterizations that bear no resemblance to what we're told they are. Batman, the man who has so much faith in people doing good that he tries to endlessly rehabilitate even the Joker in the comics, has no humility whatsoever and seems to view every human being as destined to become evil. He himself embraces this worry, becoming what he has always fought against by his massive killing sprees and overall murderous demeanor. I mean, who does this Batman think he is, Machiavelli? Why does he uncharacteristically seem to believe in one of the tenets of the philosopher's The Prince, where it is written that "A man who strives after goodness in all his acts is sure to come to ruin, since there are so many men who are not good"? Again, how is such a notion one of a hero if they are perpetrating acts they have no faith in?
On the other side of the divide, Superman, the symbol of hope, has no hope in himself or anything else beyond maybe Lois in this film, who is such a ditz you wonder why he keeps her around. And he's so quick to crumble from his morals, folks. The public gives Superman some bad reviews, calls him a few names and in response he
Nothing about this film adds up when you really think about it. Not the story, not the characters, not their motivations (of what little there are anyway), and certainly not what they seem to stand for (or not stand for). The only question up for debate is this: what's the bigger travesty? How the "heroes" act in this film, or how disparate they are from their comic book interpretations.
:) Having watched Superman Doomsday today I can see even more clearly how much of a failure the plot is in BvS.
I honestly think I hate him more than Luthor from a moral standpoint. When a man like Lex who you expect to do bad things continues to do bad things, you realize that it's all par for the course and almost inevitable for him to be villainous. But when a good man is turned cruel like Batman, to the point that he loses sight of his vow, well, that's just plain depressing.
I'm watching Daredevil season 2 right now, one of the main themes of which is good vs. evil and the drawbacks of vigilantism, and the phenomenal episodes have only made me dislike this Batman even more. Even Frank Castle has better motivations for doing what he's doing in that series, and he still has some semblance of compassion and care for human life besides all the killing he performs. With Batman, all I see is a nihilist ready to jump off the ledge. I'd love to see Daredevil cross universes and kick his ass.