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Comments
Yes, he is having hard time determining what is fantasy and what is reality it would seem
It would appear so...
Sssh, don't tell anyone, but Star Wars isn't real either
I've never seen Star Wars. That's a statement of fact, not the name of a moderately successful BBC Radio 4 programme.
So the Force is NOT true? I mean it doesn't bind us and so on?
It's real I tells you. All of it real!!!! ;-)
Matt, while I'm away until tomorrow, think about and list all your problems with the Istanbul PTS scenes and how they either promote or detract from the overall storyline.
I hate Star Wars btw.
This seems all in very good taste.
I hate Star Wars too, for the record. Boring crap.
This must be a bad dream....
No dream, Mr Chisisall. Soon a reality.
Brilliant =D>
Thank you. I aim to please.
Poor old Matt Helm. The guy actually has one valid point buried deep amongst his inanity - namely that logic in the plot of SF after Severine dies is, at best, rather spartan.
Unfortunately Matt where you flail around writing War & Peace (incoherently and with myriad spelling and grammatical errors) Timmer eloquently managed to express some of what you are trying to say in one sentence:
'SF isn't half as clever as it thinks it is.'
After wading through seemingly infinite pages of trite pop psychology on sexual abuse and extremely unrewarding tit for tat bleating at each other I thank Timmer for making my effort worthwhile with this comment.
It's a sentence that both the Helmites (is using the plural applicable here? He seems distinctly out on a limb) and anti Helmites should read a few times to let it sink in as it sums up most of the deficiencies in SF and could also be applied to quite a few people around here.
The other girls mentioned weren't slaves. Slave is the distinction.
But if you think the distinction is only one of degree, that's fair. Again my beef is not so much with Bond. He's only human. Severine set a sumptuous table and he indulged. Even if his better half, internal monologue (which we don't have access to) told him not to, we humans don't always listen to such things anyway. Such is human nature. We are flawed creatures, even the best of us.
My beef is with the filmmakers. They take pains to outline Severine's terrible past and present horrific circumstances, and then have Bond go horndog on her, seemingly oblivious to what was laid out only a few scenes earlier. We have no idea if Bond gives a crap or what. If he's an insensitive oaf or what. We are simply left to surmise. Lazy filmmaking I say.
Whilst not perhaps a view I entirely agree with, the way you conduct yourself and the fact that your points are clear and concise means you have my utmost respect for what you say. Well done to you =D>
If only Matt_Helm could even muster up a reasoning half as good as this.
For the record, I think SF is flawed, I do not think it is a perfect movie or the perfect Bond movie. I find the timing in the London act way too convenient for Silva, for instance. Heck, I would agree that it is not as smart as it thinks it is (but then that is something I think of most of the Mendes's movies I saw). However, the complaints about the whole Severine character and her role in the plot I never understood them. That said, I will gladly recognize that your criticism is measured and actually backed up by a careful examination of the movie.
She is still a slave, and as for sex it does appear that Silva has his way with her too, or did until he wearied of her.
The disctinction that I would make vis-a-vis Andrea Anders and even Lupe or Domino is that it does seem that thse girls are "merely" gangster girlfriends. It does appear that they chose the life at some point and then became trapped. They made their beds.
Compare with Severine though, whose been a slave all her life it seems. She didn't choose this bs. If the Triads hadn't got a hold of her, she might have been running a little cupcake shop somewhere and leading a wholesome little life, with nary a Scaramanga, Largo, Sanchez or Silva in sight.
As far as Bond boinking her, again I can roll with that. He's human. He's on mission. She set the table. He partook. What I am not thrilled about is how the filmmakers handled the whole scenario.
Was Tatiana really a sex slave, though, or the tantalising Soviet bait sent to capture the British agent Bond who then actually does fall in love with him for real ("I love you! I love you! It's true!). Sounds rather like Severine in SF again, which brings us around full circle. This actually dovetails very neatly with our discussion here, as Severine too falls in love with Bond and consents to sexual relations. Bond does not force the issue with her, it is indeed consensual, with both parties in agreement.
If I have missed something in Tatiana Romanova of FRWL being a sex slave, please let me know your reasoned arguments as I can't see your point currently @Ludovico.
Maybe sex slave is not the right word, but she is used as a sex object, most definitely, a honey trap to use her body to lure Bond. Granted, she does this out of patriotism, but she used as an object.
Yes, but aren't all honey-traps about just that? That is, if you will, their dictionary definition. Even closer to home with the IRA in the UK using this method to lure in and kill British soldiers in Northern Ireland, never mind the Russians. There is something that makes the Tatiana honey-trap rather different, though. This different factor is that Tatiana does in fact genuinely fall in love with Bond - she shoots Klebb, not Bond at the end after wavering for example, so she's made her bed with Bond, I'm not really sure at all how this is analogous with Severine who was a sex slave but one who consented to sexual relations with Bond as it was her right to do.
Seems like there's no end to this.
Fiona was one too. Because of her fear of SPECTRE and Blofeld she was forced into shagging Bond and Duval.
And how come no one has mentioned Tracy yet? A suicidal girl who Bond happily shags.
If there ever was a Statement that belongs in the "The most ridiculous Bond theory you heard/read" thread it must be this one.Wow!
Not a sex slave, but a sex object for Mother Russia and SMERSH or SPECTRE in the film, certainly.
I qualified what I said about Tatiana earlier on. There is an element of sexual exploitation in her role as bait. Fiona was of course a femme fatale using her sexuality as bait. Unlike Tatiana, she was not coerced or manipulated to do so, in fact she enjoyed both aspects of her job, Eros and Thanatos.
Yes, so why should they complain now? I concur.
No idea why they would. I guess a long time has passed since that time. Some people want Bond less emotionally involved in the story, to just "do a mission", but it seems they want him to care more about his relationship with women.
Rosie - living in fear of the voodoo curse and Kananga and told to lure Bond by any means.
Yes, indeed. See my separate thread on the caddishness of Roger Moore in LALD for more details.