SYMPATHY FOR THE BOND VILLAIN

edited September 2013 in Bond Movies Posts: 1,548
After watching Javier Bardem's brilliant portrayal as Silva in the classic Skyfall, part of me was moved by the character's motivation for revenge after being "burnt" by M in Hong Kong and given over the Chinese for torture. In particular the interrogation scene in the cell where he details the pain he went through. Does any one else agree and are there other villians that people can at least feel a modicum of sympathy towards ie Max Zorin (born to concentration camp parents who were subjected to Nazi experiments). Another example could be Trevelyan who's parents were betrayed by the British. Perhaps a new incarnation of Ernst Stavros played by the right actor could even add a new layer of emotional vulnerability! Or maybe that's going too far!
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Comments

  • edited September 2013 Posts: 98
    I think, a little bit of Ernst Stavro Bald teasing could be as far as they would get !

    I found Silva quite sympathetic also, but how about Jinx and May Day ?

    Very different and yet the same, they keep us viewers on their feet. Essay coming soon.
  • edited September 2013 Posts: 686
    LeChiffre wrote:
    After watching Javier Bardem's brilliant portrayal as Silva in the classic Skyfall,

    You sort of lost after the opening sentence. I thought Silva portrayal was too silly to be taken seriously, especially when he was in the isolation cell. I could not remember if I was watching the Joker or Hannibal Lector The larger answer is no. Mass murder is rarely justified.

    I really don't understand why there is this desire to explore "emotional vulnerability". It is not that interesting to me.
  • Posts: 15,120
    I am not too keen on sympathetic villains in general, I prefer them completely and irredeemably evil, more Dracula (the original one I mean) than Frankenstein's monster. Blofeld as described by Fleming is the epitom of this: completely amoral, only motivated by hubris and a twisted work ethic. I loved Silva, but not because I found him sympathetic, but because he had such a feeling of entitlement. A good villain is often someone who does something completely wrong, thinking he is doing what is right. I think M was right in turning him to the Chinese, as he had become unstable and a danger to the service, his colleagues and his country. Trevelyan might have been betrayed by the British government of that time, but this is no excuse to kill many innocent people, so his past not only gave him twisted motivations but pictured him as self-centered and insensitive. Same with Zorin.
  • yo Perdawg, villians are scarier when you sympathize with them !
  • edited September 2013 Posts: 12,837
    I felt sorry for Le Chiffre because of how unlucky he was. He was a bad guy sure but I could sympathise with him a bit, everything went wrong for him and by the time he was repeatedly hitting Bond in the balls you could see how desperate he'd become.

    I felt sorry for Elektra too and it's what makes her one of my favourite villains. Gets captured, M and her dad abandon her and eventually she turns out even more evil than the man who kidnapped her in the first place.

    I felt sorry for Bond when he was forced to shoot her too because it wasn't her fault that she was this evil, manipulative bitch trying to cause a nuclear accident; she'd been moulded into that by the people around her.

    Same with Silva really. Yeah he's a psychopath but it was M that made him one, so it was fitting that she died at the end and paid for what she'd caused (like it was fitting that Elektra's dad died in TWINE).

    I think SF is pretty much a Craig era version of TWINE. Lots of similarities there.
  • Posts: 686
    yo Perdawg, villians are scarier when you sympathize with them !

    If done well. When I was reading FRWL, I felt that both Red and Rosa Klebb were not sympathetic at all and they seemed to be sufficiently scary.
  • edited September 2013 Posts: 15,120
    Perdogg wrote:
    yo Perdawg, villians are scarier when you sympathize with them !

    If done well. When I was reading FRWL, I felt that both Red and Rosa Klebb were not sympathetic at all and they seemed to be sufficiently scary.

    Indeed. Nowadays many people seem to think one needs to find some virtues to the villain to give him character. It can be the case, sometimes, but one can be irredeemably evil and that will make him very menacing. it does not mean there is no notion of wishful fulfillment played between the reader (or the viewer) and the villain.
  • Wishful fullfillment ? I've often wondered about Mr. General Grubozaboyschikov msyefl !
  • Posts: 1,492
    Perdogg wrote:
    [
    I really don't understand why there is this desire to explore "emotional vulnerability". It is not that interesting to me.

    Because the more three dimensional the character is often the better the actor is. It also often explains the motivations of the villain for doing such things.

    Le Chiffre was the one I felt for the most. You could sense his desperation as the world moved from under him ie the poisoning, torture etc. He had good reason for his actions.
  • Posts: 686
    actonsteve wrote:
    Perdogg wrote:
    [
    I really don't understand why there is this desire to explore "emotional vulnerability". It is not that interesting to me.

    Because the more three dimensional the character is often the better the actor is. It also often explains the motivations of the villain for doing such things.

    Le Chiffre was the one I felt for the most. You could sense his desperation as the world moved from under him ie the poisoning, torture etc. He had good reason for his actions.

    I think we might be talking degrees. Of course I would prefer a three dimensional character villain, however, I do not like the psychobabble associated in current films.
  • Posts: 1,492
    Perdogg wrote:
    [ I do not like the psychobabble associated in current films.

    I love it. It makes the characters more interesting.
  • actonsteve wrote:
    Perdogg wrote:
    [ I do not like the psychobabble associated in current films.

    I love it. It makes the characters more interesting.

    It does indeed. Although I think TWINE still easily takes the cake in the psychobabble category.

  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    edited September 2013 Posts: 7,314
    Well you'd have to be a pretty cold bastard to not feel at least a modicum of sympathy for some of the villains. They still made their own bed though, so they must lie in it.
  • pachazo wrote:
    Well you'd have to be a pretty cold bastard to not feel at least a modicum of sympathy for some of the villains. They still made their own bed though, so they must lie in it.

    I actually do feel sorry for Elektra. Nice, innocent girl, ruined by terrorist and latent "daddy issues".

    Unfortunately they deleted the scene where Apted yelled "Cut!" after Brosnan uttered "one last screw" and I jumped in as his stunt double and made passionate love to Sophie :) Well, one can hope, right? :))

  • Perdogg wrote:
    LeChiffre wrote:
    After watching Javier Bardem's brilliant portrayal as Silva in the classic Skyfall,

    You sort of lost after the opening sentence. I thought Silva portrayal was too silly to be taken seriously, especially when he was in the isolation cell. I could not remember if I was watching the Joker or Hannibal Lector The larger answer is no. Mass murder is rarely justified.

    I really don't understand why there is this desire to explore "emotional vulnerability". It is not that interesting to me.

    I agree with most of this. The fact that one has faced hard times and/or been mistreated is no excuse for inflicting mass misery on innocent people. I've heard people use this sort of "reasoning" to justify the 9/11 attacks, and it is a moral monstrosity. So no, zero sympathy for any Bond villain.

  • I felt sorry for Le Chiffre because of how unlucky he was. He was a bad guy sure but I could sympathise with him a bit, everything went wrong for him and by the time he was repeatedly hitting Bond in the balls you could see how desperate he'd become.

    I felt sorry for Elektra too and it's what makes her one of my favourite villains. Gets captured, M and her dad abandon her and eventually she turns out even more evil than the man who kidnapped her in the first place.

    I felt sorry for Bond when he was forced to shoot her too because it wasn't her fault that she was this evil, manipulative bitch trying to cause a nuclear accident; she'd been moulded into that by the people around her.

    Same with Silva really. Yeah he's a psychopath but it was M that made him one, so it was fitting that she died at the end and paid for what she'd caused (like it was fitting that Elektra's dad died in TWINE).

    I think SF is pretty much a Craig era version of TWINE. Lots of similarities there.

    No, it was Silva acting as a renegade agent that triggered his demise. M simply did her job as head of MI6.

  • Ludovico wrote:
    Perdogg wrote:
    yo Perdawg, villians are scarier when you sympathize with them !

    If done well. When I was reading FRWL, I felt that both Red and Rosa Klebb were not sympathetic at all and they seemed to be sufficiently scary.

    Indeed. Nowadays many people seem to think one needs to find some virtues to the villain to give him character. It can be the case, sometimes, but one can be irredeemably evil and that will make him very menacing. it does not mean there is no notion of wishful fulfillment played between the reader (or the viewer) and the villain.

    Or to "humanize" him. It's all part of the dreadful fallacy that no villain is so vile that he must be destroyed. Rather, we must "understand" him and attempt to "rehabilitate" him. Bollocks. Pernicious bollocks.

  • actonsteve wrote:
    Perdogg wrote:
    [
    I really don't understand why there is this desire to explore "emotional vulnerability". It is not that interesting to me.

    Because the more three dimensional the character is often the better the actor is. It also often explains the motivations of the villain for doing such things.

    Le Chiffre was the one I felt for the most. You could sense his desperation as the world moved from under him ie the poisoning, torture etc. He had good reason for his actions.

    No, he was a crook and a financier of terrorism. He got his just desserts.

  • actonsteve wrote:
    Perdogg wrote:
    [ I do not like the psychobabble associated in current films.

    I love it. It makes the characters more interesting.

    It renders the screenwriting insipid and pretentious.
  • Posts: 1,492
    actonsteve wrote:
    Perdogg wrote:
    [ I do not like the psychobabble associated in current films.

    I love it. It makes the characters more interesting.

    It renders the screenwriting insipid and pretentious.

    Or three dimensional? Otherwise its just flat.

  • retrokittyretrokitty The Couv
    Posts: 380
    I think giving the character bits and pieces that bring us close to sympathizing with them is smart... But only bringing us close to sympathy. Once we sympathize with them, we lose a bit of the tension. It's that feeling of discomfort we need, Knowing they are bad but feeling close to understanding can make us feel sick and wonder how close anyone is to cracking... That is scary. But once we cross that line and feel sympathy, we move into a caring or even care giving feeling that loses the anxiety and fear.

    LeChiffre was a great example. Sure, we think "Oh no!" when things go wrong for him but we know he got himself into this. And though he bleeds from his eye, there is something attractive about him... again, putting us off balance. It works great here.

    I noticed that in a few of the villains actually. The more attractive they are, the scarier it can be. That may be the way the character is written and portrayed, sure, but I think there is something relating to our general acceptance of good looking people.

  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    Or to "humanize" him. It's all part of the dreadful fallacy that no villain is so vile that he must be destroyed. Rather, we must "understand" him and attempt to "rehabilitate" him. Bollocks. Pernicious bollocks.
    I really haven't got that impression from any of the Bond films except maybe TWINE. They usually do a good job of helping us to understand a character's motivations without trying to make us feel sorry for him/her.

  • retrokittyretrokitty The Couv
    Posts: 380
    Actually, in TWINE, I felt more for Renard than Electra. Electra seemed too much the entitled princess for me to feel sorry for her. For some reason, Renard's disability for feeling pain - or pleasure - tugged more at my heart strings.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited September 2013 Posts: 18,273
    Now it is worth noting here that Ian Fleming said in an interview he had with Raymond Chandler on "British and American Thrillers" on the BBC Third Programme in July 1958 that villains were very difficult characters to create on the page of a thriller and that such villains don't really exist in real life as they are larger-than-life for a reason. It was very hard not to present a really bad person not as a psychopath or a sick man that was in need of pity and sympathy. I'm all as for psychologically complex James Bond villains as the next person, but let's not overdo it, as the Master himself says.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,273
    retrokitty wrote:
    I think giving the character bits and pieces that bring us close to sympathizing with them is smart... But only bringing us close to sympathy. Once we sympathize with them, we lose a bit of the tension. It's that feeling of discomfort we need, Knowing they are bad but feeling close to understanding can make us feel sick and wonder how close anyone is to cracking... That is scary. But once we cross that line and feel sympathy, we move into a caring or even care giving feeling that loses the anxiety and fear.

    LeChiffre was a great example. Sure, we think "Oh no!" when things go wrong for him but we know he got himself into this. And though he bleeds from his eye, there is something attractive about him... again, putting us off balance. It works great here.

    I noticed that in a few of the villains actually. The more attractive they are, the scarier it can be. That may be the way the character is written and portrayed, sure, but I think there is something relating to our general acceptance of good looking people.

    My thesis on the banality of evil surely applies to Le Chiffre!

  • Posts: 15,120
    retrokitty wrote:
    Actually, in TWINE, I felt more for Renard than Electra. Electra seemed too much the entitled princess for me to feel sorry for her. For some reason, Renard's disability for feeling pain - or pleasure - tugged more at my heart strings.

    Elektra ended up much more annoying as well. I was waiting for Bond to give her that bullet. I feel sympathy for Renard in the sense that his character was not realized to its full potential.
  • Posts: 15,120
    Ludovico wrote:
    Perdogg wrote:
    yo Perdawg, villians are scarier when you sympathize with them !

    If done well. When I was reading FRWL, I felt that both Red and Rosa Klebb were not sympathetic at all and they seemed to be sufficiently scary.

    Indeed. Nowadays many people seem to think one needs to find some virtues to the villain to give him character. It can be the case, sometimes, but one can be irredeemably evil and that will make him very menacing. it does not mean there is no notion of wishful fulfillment played between the reader (or the viewer) and the villain.

    Or to "humanize" him. It's all part of the dreadful fallacy that no villain is so vile that he must be destroyed. Rather, we must "understand" him and attempt to "rehabilitate" him. Bollocks. Pernicious bollocks.

    Well, depends what they mean by "humanized". I like the villains to be rounded, believable characters, thus humans in that sense, not pantomime or caricatures. But sympathizing with them takes the menace off them. I want their motivations to be believable, I want to understand them in that sense, but never to the point of them losing their villainy. On the contrary, understanding has to confirm their villainy. People mentioned Silva as a villain one sympathizes with and I disagree completely. I understands Silva's motivations, I understand why he has this sense of entitlement, but that's what makes him evil. He was gifted, he used his gift to cause havocs, just because he could. His loyalty was destroyed by his vanity.
  • Ludovico wrote:
    retrokitty wrote:
    Actually, in TWINE, I felt more for Renard than Electra. Electra seemed too much the entitled princess for me to feel sorry for her. For some reason, Renard's disability for feeling pain - or pleasure - tugged more at my heart strings.

    Elektra ended up much more annoying as well. I was waiting for Bond to give her that bullet. I feel sympathy for Renard in the sense that his character was not realized to its full potential.

    This. P&W did the brilliant Carlyle no favors at all. He got his paycheck, but I didn't get my monies worth out of him that I usually do.

  • retrokittyretrokitty The Couv
    Posts: 380
    Ludovico wrote:
    retrokitty wrote:
    Actually, in TWINE, I felt more for Renard than Electra. Electra seemed too much the entitled princess for me to feel sorry for her. For some reason, Renard's disability for feeling pain - or pleasure - tugged more at my heart strings.

    Elektra ended up much more annoying as well. I was waiting for Bond to give her that bullet. I feel sympathy for Renard in the sense that his character was not realized to its full potential.

    This. P&W did the brilliant Carlyle no favors at all. He got his paycheck, but I didn't get my monies worth out of him that I usually do.

    Absolutely.... He should have been the main villain. It does feel like a rip-off.

  • retrokitty wrote:
    I think giving the character bits and pieces that bring us close to sympathizing with them is smart... But only bringing us close to sympathy. Once we sympathize with them, we lose a bit of the tension. It's that feeling of discomfort we need, Knowing they are bad but feeling close to understanding can make us feel sick and wonder how close anyone is to cracking... That is scary. But once we cross that line and feel sympathy, we move into a caring or even care giving feeling that loses the anxiety and fear.

    LeChiffre was a great example. Sure, we think "Oh no!" when things go wrong for him but we know he got himself into this. And though he bleeds from his eye, there is something attractive about him... again, putting us off balance. It works great here.

    I noticed that in a few of the villains actually. The more attractive they are, the scarier it can be. That may be the way the character is written and portrayed, sure, but I think there is something relating to our general acceptance of good looking people.

    An interesting post.

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