SKYFALL: Is this the best Bond film?

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  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited November 2020 Posts: 5,970
    I think the problem is that it's somewhat presented as her sleeping with Bond out of fear as opposed to actually wanting to do sleep with him, considering she knows he's a killer...

    I just think to avoid this they needed a scene before it to give us an idea that Severine wanted to sleep with him, or even more so, initiates it. For example, if she and Bond have a drink on the boat as she'd planned, and then afterwards walks away in her robe, and invites him to the shower with her, then I think it would just make the scene more comfortable for people who did have a problem with how the scene was presented.
  • Posts: 1,917
    The Macau stuff is all great, I don't even mind the Komodo Dragon business. To me the pointing and the obvious fear of the dragons is some of the levity that the Craig era could have used more of, IMO. Oddly I don't love the scene where Bond is boating up to the entrance of the casino; never thought he looked that great in that scene.

    For me, that arrival scene is the best part of that entire sequence. The CGI dragons are not intimidating, there's clunky humor and the fight isn't well choreographed.
    jobo wrote: »
    Agreed. Another thing that really annoys me is the "Home Alone comparison". Like if Home Alone has a monopoly on setting out traps?? :-?? :-? 8-|
    It's similar to one of my annoyances when LTK always gets the a Miami Vice comparison. Like Miami Vice has a monopoly on having scenes set in Florida and the villain being a powerful drug dealer.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2020 Posts: 7,547
    Skyfall-Dinner-Suit.jpg


    Somehow I feel the lighting or the perspective ages him quite a bit, but it could be just be me.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited November 2020 Posts: 8,183
    Funnily, he looks a lot younger in SP. I think it’s the buzz haircut in SF that accentuates an older look.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2020 Posts: 7,547
    Funnily, he looks a lot younger in SP. I think it’s the buzz haircut in SF that accentuates an older look.

    Agreed. Didn’t love the cut in Skyfall.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited November 2020 Posts: 4,585
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I do think they should've added another dialogue scene between Severine and Bond on the boat. It also could've served to have lessened the controversy of the shower scene, if they just had a small scene where Bond has managed to get onto the boat, and they share a drink, where Severine can convince us as the audience that she does indeed want to sleep with Bond - obviously in a subtle way - as well as offering more time to develop her character before the inevitable.

    I dont like Skyfall but iv never understood the '' controversy '' of the shower scene.Severine did invite him on the boat and its not like shes shocked or anything when he steps into her shower.Sex between two consenting adults.Whats the problem?

    Lol remind me to never invite you onto my boat.

    “Officer, he invited me onto his boat, and it is customary then for the guest to immediately get naked and hop into the shower with the host. Two consenting adults, what’s the problem??”

    There is no controversy, really. It's a Bond film. And the shower scene is pretty mild by Bond standards.

    Let's not forget that the two locked eyes big time in Shanghai. It was similar to Solange's look, on the beach...though in that scene they seemed nearer. And the invitation to the boat was quite forward. I do believe that Bond had every intention of "saving" her. This is why the scene in the shower was important: he wraps his arms around her, from behind. This is known as a protection hug.

    Problem is, once at the island, Bond doesn't show enough remorse about her sudden death. While it couldn't have been stopped, I would have liked to have seen a little more remorse or respect from Bond afterward. (I'm not talking about the "scotch" line, which was meant to distract.) Once they were back at MI6, it would have been nice to see Bond signing papers regarding the body and giving someone instructions to find the next of kin as soon as possible. I mean, something, anything other than what we saw. It's my only quibble with SF.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    All fair, and agree that the shower bit isn't the most shocking thing we've seen in the context of Bond films.
  • edited November 2020 Posts: 4,615
    The long term theme here seems to be that many Bond fans who don't like SF hold ellements of it up to a higher standard than other movies in order to create a critique. Anyone has the right not to like any movie but it does help to be consistant. Iv'e spoken to some fans who criticise the plot of SF and then talk about what a great movie MR is !!! Perhaps Bond and M should have hopped on an Ariane rocket rather than drive to Scotland?
  • Posts: 7,507
    patb wrote: »
    The long term theme here seems to be that many Bond fans who don't like SF hold ellements of it up to a higher standard than other movies in order to create a critique. Anyone has the right not to like any movie but it does help to be consistant. Iv'e spoken to some fans who criticise the plot of SF and then talk about what a great movie MR is !!! Perhaps Bond and M should have hopped on an Ariane rocket rather than drive to Scotland?


    Indeed, that´s the bottom line. A usual way to justify it is to claim that Skyfall is «so pretentious», therefore it has to be held to a higher standard of expectation. I still don´t understand what is pretentious about it though...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited November 2020 Posts: 8,183
    jobo wrote: »
    Indeed, that´s the bottom line. A usual way to justify it is to claim that Skyfall is «so pretentious», therefore it has to be held to a higher standard of expectation. I still don´t understand what is pretentious about it though...

    It's because it has an Oscar winning director behind the helm, who was originally known for being a director of melodramas like AMERICAN BEAUTY and REVOLUTIONARY ROAD. Guarantee, if this film happened to have been directed by Martin Campbell, you wouldn't hear that word "pretentious" a lot. In fact, if Mendes had directed CR as we got it, you'd probably hear the word "pretentious" regarding that film.

    "What the point of shooting the PTS in black and white? Why be all experimental and pretentious for the sake of it?"
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited November 2020 Posts: 4,585
    jobo wrote: »
    Indeed, that´s the bottom line. A usual way to justify it is to claim that Skyfall is «so pretentious», therefore it has to be held to a higher standard of expectation. I still don´t understand what is pretentious about it though...

    It's because it has an Oscar winning director behind the helm, who was originally known for being a director of melodramas like AMERICAN BEAUTY and REVOLUTIONARY ROAD. Guarantee, if this film happened to have been directed by Martin Campbell, you wouldn't hear that word "pretentious" a lot. In fact, if Mendes had directed CR as we got it, you'd probably hear the word "pretentious" regarding that film.

    "What the point of shooting the PTS in black and white? Why be all experimental and pretentious for the sake of it?"

    +1

    Some tend to forget that Mendes had also directed Jarhead and Road to Perdition, which were not exactly melodramas. Both contained their share of suspense and violence.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2020 Posts: 7,547
    patb wrote: »
    The long term theme here seems to be that many Bond fans who don't like SF hold ellements of it up to a higher standard than other movies in order to create a critique. Anyone has the right not to like any movie but it does help to be consistant. Iv'e spoken to some fans who criticise the plot of SF and then talk about what a great movie MR is !!! Perhaps Bond and M should have hopped on an Ariane rocket rather than drive to Scotland?

    They set out to give the Craig era a more realistic context than the context of Bond films in which Moonraker was made. “We don’t go in for that anymore” and all this. They’re asking us to hold the Craig era to a *different* standard (hesitate to say higher standard). I say this as a big fan of Skyfall, who has no issues with any perceived pretentiousness or anything like that.

    I’m just saying I don’t think the argument that “you were fine with this in MR, why not SF?” holds much water.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    TripAces wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Indeed, that´s the bottom line. A usual way to justify it is to claim that Skyfall is «so pretentious», therefore it has to be held to a higher standard of expectation. I still don´t understand what is pretentious about it though...

    It's because it has an Oscar winning director behind the helm, who was originally known for being a director of melodramas like AMERICAN BEAUTY and REVOLUTIONARY ROAD. Guarantee, if this film happened to have been directed by Martin Campbell, you wouldn't hear that word "pretentious" a lot. In fact, if Mendes had directed CR as we got it, you'd probably hear the word "pretentious" regarding that film.

    "What the point of shooting the PTS in black and white? Why be all experimental and pretentious for the sake of it?"

    +1

    Some tend to forget that Mendes had also directed Jarhead and Road to Perdition, which were not exactly melodramas. Both contained their share of suspense and violence.

    Mendes has shown he's pretty open to trying different kinds of films, at the very least. Not too dissimilar from Lewis Gilbert, who actually got an Oscar nom for ALFIE before taking on YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    With regards to Skyfall. I felt Silva is a disappointing and grossly overrated villain.
  • Posts: 4,615
    Re Silva, we have a brilliant introduction, a great character motivation, a wonderful actor and IMHO a decent enough ending but there was still pontential for more great scenes (the Silence of the Lambs scene was a let down)
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    As yesterday would have been the day I would have seen NTTD my Wife and I are doing a double bill, I decided rather than subject her to a Bond one entire that we'd celebrate the spy film and the two most famous spies in literature and film.

    First up some slow burn cerebral take on the genre and still my favourite film of the 21st Century, anchored by one of the Gary Oldman's finest ever performances with an accompanying cast to die for. Thomas Alfredson's adaptation of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy is always a treat for me.

    Then of course our boy gets his turn and I knew it was going to be a Craig film and although I could have picked CR,I chose Skyfall. There isn't a huge amount in it for me with regards to quality and preference.

    CR is my favourite DC film just after OHMSS in my rankings then it is FRWL with SF at no. 4 but the margin is very slim between all three, only really OHMSS has a bit of distance.

    I know some on here detest or don't like it but I love it and this will be my first watch since a group of us saw it in Manchester the end of last year at Skyfall in concert, which was incredible. Also this will be the first time I've watched it on my 4K UHD version.

    Also we are going with a Turkish flavour with the food tonight, something from our favourite local Turkish restaurant via take away and some additions added ourselves.

    All washed down with some Effes Turkish draft beer.

    All in all a quality night that I'm hugely looking forward to.
  • Posts: 1,917
    TripAces wrote: »
    Problem is, once at the island, Bond doesn't show enough remorse about her sudden death. While it couldn't have been stopped, I would have liked to have seen a little more remorse or respect from Bond afterward. (I'm not talking about the "scotch" line, which was meant to distract.) Once they were back at MI6, it would have been nice to see Bond signing papers regarding the body and giving someone instructions to find the next of kin as soon as possible. I mean, something, anything other than what we saw. It's my only quibble with SF.

    I've seen a couple discussions on this and I maintain I like the way it's handled. Think back to how previous Bonds have handled the deaths of women and colleagues they couldn't protect and it's not something soppy or sentimental. It's quick and to-the-point (Moore's "Goodbye countess" in FYEO or Connery reflecting for just a moment to Paula's death in TB are good examples) and Bond has to move on, whereas Tracy and Vesper are exceptions for obvious reasons.

    If he dwells on these things, he's less effective. That's been explored a lot in the books, but doesn't need to be in the films. Besides, you haven't seen anything like that in any previous film, so why do so for her?
    patb wrote: »
    The long term theme here seems to be that many Bond fans who don't like SF hold ellements of it up to a higher standard than other movies in order to create a critique. Anyone has the right not to like any movie but it does help to be consistant. Iv'e spoken to some fans who criticise the plot of SF and then talk about what a great movie MR is !!! Perhaps Bond and M should have hopped on an Ariane rocket rather than drive to Scotland?

    They set out to give the Craig era a more realistic context than the context of Bond films in which Moonraker was made. “We don’t go in for that anymore” and all this. They’re asking us to hold the Craig era to a *different* standard (hesitate to say higher standard). I say this as a big fan of Skyfall, who has no issues with any perceived pretentiousness or anything like that.

    I’m just saying I don’t think the argument that “you were fine with this in MR, why not SF?” holds much water.

    Exactly what I thought. I'm one of those fans that holds SF to a higher standard to criticism because as a Bond fan, I don't find it as good as others do. Does MR hold up within the context it's made? Yes. It's made to be a goofy good Star Wars-inspired anything goes film that still has some effective scenes and stunts among the madness to make it stand out, at least to me.

    I've already touched on my criticisms of SF many times, from plot points that were done in other films to none of the action sequences standing out to the tired this time it's personal and focus on M. All of that just doesn't work for me as an overall experience and why it's not a go-to film for me. It's an M film featuring James Bond.
  • edited November 2020 Posts: 1,394
    Yeah the focus on M is one of the reasons i dont rate SF.I feel no sympathy for her as shes shown to be grossly incompetent throughout the film.When she died i felt nothing but relief that she was gone and glad that we got Ralph Fiennes as the new M.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    Feeling relief that the M that served the entire Brosnan and Craig eras was gone is a pretty shocking opinion IMO. Judi’s M was brilliant, even if she didn’t make perfect decisions all the way through.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Yes, Judi's M was brilliant. I think she bowed out at just the right time, too - both for Dench as an actress and in terms of that particular version of the character's impact on the series. She does make some terrible decisions in Skyfall but I still find her exit very sad.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    Her exit was handled exceptionally well, different than her just not showing up in the next one.

    To me it made perfect sense for the story that she'd stayed around long enough that fallout from the hard decisions she'd made (includes handing Silva over to the Chinese, not a mistake on her part) returned to haunt her. Leading to her price paid for doing the right thing.

  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    BT3366 wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    Problem is, once at the island, Bond doesn't show enough remorse about her sudden death. While it couldn't have been stopped, I would have liked to have seen a little more remorse or respect from Bond afterward. (I'm not talking about the "scotch" line, which was meant to distract.) Once they were back at MI6, it would have been nice to see Bond signing papers regarding the body and giving someone instructions to find the next of kin as soon as possible. I mean, something, anything other than what we saw. It's my only quibble with SF.

    I've seen a couple discussions on this and I maintain I like the way it's handled. Think back to how previous Bonds have handled the deaths of women and colleagues they couldn't protect and it's not something soppy or sentimental. It's quick and to-the-point (Moore's "Goodbye countess" in FYEO or Connery reflecting for just a moment to Paula's death in TB are good examples) and Bond has to move on, whereas Tracy and Vesper are exceptions for obvious reasons.

    If he dwells on these things, he's less effective. That's been explored a lot in the books, but doesn't need to be in the films. Besides, you haven't seen anything like that in any previous film, so why do so for her?

    There is some truth to this.

    At the same time, Bond has a history of actually showing great concern for the safety and well-being of women, no matter that critics have (mistakenly) called his character a misogynist. He is visibly bothered by Jill's death in GF and then forsakes his own safety to check on Tilly. He is concerned about Plenty when she is thrown out the window in DAF. Even Craig shows regret and agitation over Solange's death in CR and then Fields' death in QoS.

  • Posts: 1,394
    Feeling relief that the M that served the entire Brosnan and Craig eras was gone is a pretty shocking opinion IMO. Judi’s M was brilliant, even if she didn’t make perfect decisions all the way through.

    Judi Dench is great but i feel they gave her way too much screen time as the movies progressed.And in Skyfall,when the character is shown to be completely and utterly incompetent,i find it hard to feel sad for her when she dies.I was just so elated at the time that Fiennes was replacing her and that we would be going back to a Bond and M relationship reminescent of the Bernard Lee years.

    I actually felt very sad for Severines death and wish she had been the main Bond girl of the film.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Is M that incompetent in Skyfall? She does one, grave inexplicable mistake in staying put and not leaving the courtroom when she knows Silva is on the loose and out to get her. Apart from that I don't think she makes any obvious mistakes through out the film.
  • cwl007cwl007 England
    Posts: 611
    The last scene of SF when Bond and the new M address each other in the traditional office!
    Wow, I can still remember how I felt seeing that for the first time grinning ear to ear.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    It’s no wonder @AstonLotus hates TWINE.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2020 Posts: 7,547
    jobo wrote: »
    Is M that incompetent in Skyfall? She does one, grave inexplicable mistake in staying put and not leaving the courtroom when she knows Silva is on the loose and out to get her. Apart from that I don't think she makes any obvious mistakes through out the film.

    I was thinking about this as well, and really stretching to come up with some grave missteps:
    1) Creating the list of NATO agents: Likely not entirely on M, but Mallory seemed to indicate that it was in her "retirement" meeting.
    2) "Take the bloody shot.": Agree with Bond that she should have trusted him to finish the job. Her argument that "it was the possibility of losing you versus the certainty of losing all those other agents" holds absolutely no water; she effectively lost both. Her fear of losing the list likely made her override her better judgement here when she ordered Eve to fire.
    3) Not alerting the parliamentary committee to Silva's oncoming attack: Clearly a massive misstep. They needed to evacuate the entire building.
    4) Asking to go to Skyfall alone, with no backup: This only really resulted in her own death; she wanted to go this route because of the guilt she felt about people dying around her. A personal decision that only endangered herself and Bond (and it's her job to put him in danger). Kincade as well but no one knew about him beforehand.
    5) Sticking around to shoot poorly at bad guys in Skyfall: See point 4.

    Anyways, M I'm sure would agree with you @AstonLotus at the end of the day:
    "I f***ed this up, didn't I."
    "I did get one thing right..."

    Bonus point: I think you could argue also that M sending Bond out on the mission after he's failed all the tests could be another poor decision made by M, but the franchise is built on Bond outperforming the expectations placed on him by M. I like that Judi's M seems to continually realize this and put her faith in him. She should have done that, though, when he was on the train!
  • Posts: 1,917
    jobo wrote: »
    Is M that incompetent in Skyfall? She does one, grave inexplicable mistake in staying put and not leaving the courtroom when she knows Silva is on the loose and out to get her. Apart from that I don't think she makes any obvious mistakes through out the film.

    I was thinking about this as well, and really stretching to come up with some grave missteps:
    1) Creating the list of NATO agents: Likely not entirely on M, but Mallory seemed to indicate that it was in her "retirement" meeting.
    2) "Take the bloody shot.": Agree with Bond that she should have trusted him to finish the job. Her argument that "it was the possibility of losing you versus the certainty of losing all those other agents" holds absolutely no water; she effectively lost both. Her fear of losing the list likely made her override her better judgement here when she ordered Eve to fire.
    3) Not alerting the parliamentary committee to Silva's oncoming attack: Clearly a massive misstep. They needed to evacuate the entire building.
    4) Asking to go to Skyfall alone, with no backup: This only really resulted in her own death; she wanted to go this route because of the guilt she felt about people dying around her. A personal decision that only endangered herself and Bond (and it's her job to put him in danger). Kincade as well but no one knew about him beforehand.
    5) Sticking around to shoot poorly at bad guys in Skyfall: See point 4.

    Anyways, M I'm sure would agree with you @AstonLotus at the end of the day:
    "I f***ed this up, didn't I."
    "I did get one thing right..."

    Bonus point: I think you could argue also that M sending Bond out on the mission after he's failed all the tests could be another poor decision made by M, but the franchise is built on Bond outperforming the expectations placed on him by M. I like that Judi's M seems to continually realize this and put her faith in him. She should have done that, though, when he was on the train!

    Excellent summary. I'd add sending somebody as inexperienced as Moneypenny into the field with Bond on such an important assignment.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited November 2020 Posts: 554
    I still don't understand why they (as in, the writers) didn't just leave M and Tanner unaware of Silva's incoming attack on the parliment. Having them aware of it in advance just makes Dench's M look even worse than she already does at this point in the film. You'd need to contrive an explanation for why MI6 can't get a message out, but it'd have been better than what we got.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I still don't understand why they (as in, the writers) didn't just leave M and Tanner unaware of Silva's incoming attack on the parliment. Having them aware of it in advance just makes Dench's M look even worse than she already does at this point in the film.

    That was the point.
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