Live And Let Die vs Tomorrow Never Dies - By the Elements

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  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,572
    Let's try and look at this objectively.

    PTS: MR
    Title Track: MR
    Title Credits: DAD
    Main Villain: MR
    Main Bond Girl: MR
    Overall Plot: MR
    Dialogue: MR
    Score: MR
    Settings: MR, although I do like Iceland and what is supposed to be Cuba.
    Action: MR
    Humour: DAD- Graves can be highly amusing at times "...but my dreams can kill YOU"
    Cinematography: MR
    Benign Bizarre: MR
    Suspense: MR
    Minor Characters: MR
    Glamor: MR
    Ally: DAD (Raoul)

    MR: 14
    DAD: 3
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    edited March 2014 Posts: 2,629
    PTS: DAD (Scorions > Falling through a circus tent)
    Title Track: MR (You can sit through Shirley Bassey)
    Title Credits: MR
    Main Villain: Neither (If a gun was held to my head, I'd say pull the trigger)
    Main Bond Girl: MR (Holly was serviceable and reasonably intelligent. Won't say the say thing about Jinx)
    Overall Plot: Neither (Sending poisonous orchids through space vs, splitting up Korea from space)
    Dialogue: MR (No references to cock fights in MR)
    Score: MR (The one good thing MR has going for it)
    Settings: MR (Venice and Rio over Iceland and North Korea any day)
    Action: Neither
    Humor: MR (Less cringeworthy)
    Cinematography: MR
    Benign Bizarre: MR
    Suspense: Neither, wanted both to end
    Minor Characters: DAD
    Glamor: Neither. There's no glamour in watching cow dung ferment
    Ally: DAD (Raoul was salvageable)

    MR 9-3-5
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Kerim wrote:
    Suspense: Neither, wanted both to end

    HAHAHAHAHA!! Priceless.
  • Posts: 414
    The two worst 007 movies, IMO. This should be tricky.

    PTS: Moonraker (Jaws)
    Title Track: Die Aother Day (Not a popular choice, I'll admit, but Moonraker was Bassey's worst while Madonna at least represents my hometown.)
    Title Credits: Moonraker
    Main Villain: Moonraker
    Main Bond Girl: Moonraker (Holly Goodhead by far)
    Overall Plot: Die Another Day (At least it didn't send Bond into space)
    Dialogue: Moonraker
    Score: Moonraker (Don't remember the score that well, but John Barry usually wins these battles by default)
    Settings: Moonraker
    Action: Die Another Day
    Humor: Die Another Day (Pierce's one-liners, John Cleese, even Halle Berry's shtick versus double-taking pigeons)
    Cinematography: Die Another Day
    Benign Bizarre: Moonraker (Not even invisible cars and Koreans-genetically-spliced-into-Caucasians are more bizarre than that laser battle in outer space, for better or worse)
    Suspense: Moonraker (the stakes: the entire Earth on one hand, just Korea on the other)
    Minor Characters: Moonraker
    Glamor: Die Another Day
    Ally: Die Another Day (Who was the ally in Moonraker?)

    Some pretty hard decisions. Both are neck-to-neck in terms of dubious quality.

    Moonraker - 10
    Die Another Day - 7

    And, surprisingly, my least favorite Bond movie ever takes a slight lead over my second least favorite Bond movie ever when judged by the elements.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    PTS: DAD
    Title Track: MR
    Title Credits: DAD
    Main Villain: MR
    Main Bond Girl: DAD
    Overall Plot: DAD
    Dialogue: DAD
    Score: DAD
    Settings: DAD
    Action: DAD
    Humour: DAD
    Cinematography: DAD
    Benign Bizarre: DAD
    Suspense: DAD
    Minor Characters: DAD
    Glamor: DAD
    Ally: DAD

    MR: 1
    DAD: 16
  • Posts: 414
    Walecs wrote:
    PTS: DAD
    Title Track: MR
    Title Credits: DAD
    Main Villain: MR
    Main Bond Girl: DAD
    Overall Plot: DAD
    Dialogue: DAD
    Score: DAD
    Settings: DAD
    Action: DAD
    Humour: DAD
    Cinematography: DAD
    Benign Bizarre: DAD
    Suspense: DAD
    Minor Characters: DAD
    Glamor: DAD
    Ally: DAD

    MR: 1
    DAD: 16

    You might want to recount your own votes, @Walecs, or check for typos. I see MR: 2, DAD: 15.
  • Posts: 19,339
    PTS: MR
    Title Track: MR
    Title Credits: DAD
    Main Villain: MR
    Main Bond Girl: MR
    Overall Plot: DAD
    Dialogue: MR
    Score: DAD
    Settings: MR
    Action: DAD
    Humour: DAD
    Cinematography: MR
    Benign Bizarre: MR
    Suspense: DAD
    Minor Characters: DAD
    Glamor: DAD
    Ally: DAD

    MR: 8
    DAD:9


    That was a close call.
  • Posts: 1,817
    PTS: MR
    Title Track: MR
    Title Credits: MR
    Main Villain: MR
    Main Bond Girl: MR
    Overall Plot: MR
    Dialogue: MR
    Score: MR
    Settings: MR
    Action: DAD
    Humor: MR
    Cinematography: MR
    Benign Bizarre: MR
    Suspense: MR
    Minor Characters: DAD
    Glamor: DAD
    Ally: DAD

    MR - 13
    DAD - 4
  • Let's get our final entries and bring this clash of the titans to an end!
  • Posts: 4,762
    PTS: Die Another Day (more enjoyable, in all honesty)
    Title Track: Moonraker (I've always loved this theme song)
    Title Credits: Moonraker (they fit the song incredibly well)
    Main Villain: Moonraker (as dull as Drax is, he's at least more seriously taken than Gustav Graves)
    Main Bond Girl: Moonraker (Holly is at least slightly competent)
    Overall Plot: Die Another Day (more plausible than a space station plotting the world population's annihilation)
    Dialogue: Moonraker (DAD's is pretty lousy)
    Score: Moonraker (Arnold's was fine, but Barry's is more memorable)
    Settings: Die Another Day (that Ice Palace is pretty sweet!)
    Action: Die Another Day (clear and far away the better of the two!)
    Humor: Moonraker (the lesser of two evils, I suppose)
    Cinematography: Die Another Day
    Benign Bizarre: Die Another Day
    Suspense: Die Another Day
    Minor Characters: Die Another Day
    Glamor: Moonraker
    Ally: Die Another Day (Raoul is awesome)

    MR- 8
    DAD- 9

    Neither are top contenders for me, but Die Another Day is simply better, despite how close it looks by the elements.
  • PTS: DAD
    Title Track: MR (By a very very wide margin)
    Title Credits: MR
    Main Villain: MR
    Main Bond Girl: DAD
    Overall Plot: MR
    Dialogue: MR
    Score: MR
    Settings: DAD
    Action: DAD
    Humor: MR
    Cinematography: MR
    Benign Bizarre: MR
    Suspense: MR
    Minor Characters: MR
    Glamor: DAD
    Ally: MR ( come on, it's Jaws!, even though a very strange one)

    11-5

    Moonraker, kinda surprised by that one. I do like bits of both films, but on a whole they're definitely not great Bond films. In the end, not even MR saves DAD on this one.


  • Well, this round is done with, and that's about all there is to say about Moonraker and Die Another Day. Moonraker wins this round handily, by a margin of 312-106-7. Our next match will be between the two low-key Bond adventures of the 1980's, For Your Eyes Only and Licence to Kill!

    PTS: LTK (Take that, I-Can't-Believe-It's-Not-Blofeld)
    Title Track: FYEO
    Title Credits: FYEO
    Main Villain: LTK (easily)
    Main Bond Girl: LTK
    Overall Plot: FYEO
    Dialogue: LTK (FYEO loses because 'I'll buy you a delicatessen, in stainless steel!')
    Score: LTK
    Settings: FYEO
    Action: LTK (Can't really bet against it)
    Humor: FYEO
    Cinematography: FYEO
    Benign Bizarre: FYEO (surprisingly close)
    Suspense: LTK (the mountain-climbing scene is good, but LTK takes it)
    Minor Characters: LTK
    Glamor: FYEO (neither stands out, but there you have it)
    Ally: LTK (when in doubt, go with Felix)

    9-8 Licence to Kill

  • edited April 2014 Posts: 7,653
    PTS: LTK [the FYEO pts is actually the weakest part with the exception of Tracy's grave]
    Title Track: FYEO
    Title Credits: FYEO
    Main Villain: FYEO [faithfull to Fleming]
    Main Bond Girl: LTK
    Overall Plot: FYEO
    Dialogue: FYEO
    Score: FYEO [Bill Conti gave the movie a musical identity, the music on LTK is a mischmasch and has little cohesia]
    Settings: FYEO
    Action: FYEO
    Humor: FYEO
    Cinematography: FYEO
    Benign Bizarre: FYEO
    Suspense: FYEO [the borrowed scene from the LALD book and the climbing are brilliant]
    Minor Characters: FYEO
    Glamor: FYEO
    Ally: FYEO [Colombo is great, including Mrs Brosnan]

    FYEO - LTK 15-2
  • Posts: 6,396
    PTS: LTK
    Title Track: FYEO
    Title Credits: FYEO
    Main Villain: LTK
    Main Bond Girl: FYEO
    Overall Plot: FYEO
    Dialogue: FYEO
    Score: FYEO
    Settings: FYEO
    Action: LTK
    Humor: FYEO
    Cinematography: FYEO
    Benign Bizarre: LTK
    Suspense: FYEO
    Minor Characters: LTK
    Glamor: FYEO
    Ally: FYEO

    FYEO 12 - LTK - 5

    I like both fairly equally so I'm surprised by that result.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    PTS: Licence To Kill
    Title Track: For Your Eyes Only
    Title Credits: Licence To Kill
    Main Villain: Licence To Kill
    Main Bond Girl: For Your Eyes Only
    Overall Plot: Licence To Kill
    Dialogue: Licence To Kill
    Score: Licence To Kill
    Settings: For Your Eyes Only
    Action: Licence To Kill
    Humor: For Your Eyes Only
    Cinematography: For Your Eyes Only
    Benign Bizarre: Licence To Kill
    Suspense: Licence To Kill
    Minor Characters: Licence To Kill
    Glamor: For Your Eyes Only
    Ally: Licence To Kill

    LTK: 11 - FYEO: 6
  • Posts: 6,396
    Who is classed as the main ally in LTK? Leiter, Sharkey?

    Actually Q probably would be the one I guess.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited April 2014 Posts: 5,080
    PTS: LTK (I'll take LTKs dynamic PTS over wheelchair Blofeld anyday)
    Title Track: FYEO (a beautiful song from Sheena, just edging it over Knight's performance)
    Title Credits: FYEO (I think it was great to include Sheena in the credits, as she really does look like a Bond girl...I think LTKs credits feel a bit tired, with all that camera product placement...)
    Main Villain: LTK (Sanchez makes for a far more memorable villain that Kristatos.)
    Main Bond Girl: FYEO (Melina, just...Both Bouvier and Melina are top three Bond girls)
    Overall Plot: FYEO (a nice, simple tale of espionage. The revenge plot and the drug plot work very well in LTK also)
    Dialogue: FYEO
    Score: FYEO (Big fan of Conti's score. The score is where LTK is let down. If Barry had just done one more...)
    Settings: FYEO (beautiful shots of Greece and Italy)
    Action: LTK (Just. Both films have top notch action. LTK wins because of that tanker stunt!)
    Humor: FYEO ("you get your clothes on, and I'll buy you an ice cream")
    Cinematography: FYEO (for the underwater shots, Cortina d'Ampezzo and Greece. I think FYEO is the best Moore film cinematography wise)
    Benign Bizarre: draw (winking fish in LTK, Thatcher in FYEO etc.)
    Suspense: LTK (When will Bond's cover be blown?!)
    Minor Characters: FYEO (For Lisl, Luigu and Max the Parrot (oh, wait...!)
    Glamor: FYEO
    Ally: FYEO (Colombo is one of the franchises better allies)

    FYEO- 12 LTK- 4 Draw- 1

    I love both of these films (they are 4th and 5th respectively in my rankings) , so I didn't expect FYEO to win by such a wide margin.


  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Who is classed as the main ally in LTK? Leiter, Sharkey?

    Actually Q probably would be the one I guess.

    I tend to go with Sharkey, but it's always a shady area when it comes to the main ally of the film. Like, who was the main ally in MR or TSWLM? But then we have films like LTK that are full of them!
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    PTS: LTK
    Title Track: LTK
    Title Credits: LTK
    Main Villain: LTK
    Main Bond Girl: LTK
    Overall Plot: FYEO
    Dialogue: LTK
    Score: LTK
    Settings: FYEO
    Action: LTK
    Humor: FYEO
    Cinematography: FYEO
    Benign Bizarre: LTK
    Suspense: FYEO
    Minor Characters: LTK
    Glamor: LTK
    Ally: FYEO (Columbo is awesome!)
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    Posts: 2,629
    PTS: LTK, for no mentions of Stainless Steel Delis
    Title Track: FYEO, Gladys Knight just wasn't at her best
    Title Credits: FYEO
    Main Villain: LTK, Dirty Sanchez rules
    Main Bond Girl: LTK, I liked where Pam hid her gun
    Overall Plot: LTK, both realistic but LTK was more timely
    Dialogue: LTK
    Score: FYEO
    Settings: FYEO
    Action: LTK, how can you top the tanker chase
    Humor: LTK, I may be one of the few, but I loved the dark humor in LTK.
    Cinematography: LTK, the underwater shots really were underwater.
    Benign Bizarre: LTK, blinking fish
    Suspense: LTK
    Minor Characters: LTK
    Glamor: FYEO
    Ally: LTK, Felix at his finest.

    LTK wins 12-5
  • Posts: 12,466
    PTS: FYEO (tied up an important loose end; I don't mind the silliness at all. I thought it was a great way to finish Blofeld. LTK's PTS was excellent and intense, though, but FYEO's obviously holds more significance still)
    Title Track: FYEO (great Bond song; good job Sheena Easton)
    Title Credits: FYEO (another FYEO point! I also like the inclusion of Easton in the credits)
    Main Villain: LTK (Sanchez > Kristatos by a long shot. Kristatos is one of my least favorite villains in the series, Sanchez is in my Top 10)
    Main Bond Girl: FYEO (I preferred Melina to both of the Bond girls in LTK myself)
    Overall Plot: LTK (FYEO is pretty classic I guess, but I prefer the darker, revenge theme/plot of LTK; it was a nice change-up for the series)
    Dialogue: LTK (pretty close; not too much preference here)
    Score: FYEO (another close one; I'll just give this edge to FYEO)
    Settings: FYEO
    Action: LTK (FYEO had good action too, but the final epic truck chase at the end of LTK gives it the point here)
    Humor: FYEO (Do I have to explain anything here? But seriously, FYEO was the most serious of the Moore films still, even if it doesn't hold a candle to the grittiness of LTK)
    Cinematography: LTK
    Benign Bizarre: LTK (that winking fish...)
    Suspense: LTK (I was on the edge of my seat more in this one than FYEO; simply more intense and eventful for me)
    Minor Characters: LTK
    Glamor: FYEO
    Ally: LTK (next-best Felix after Jeffrey Wright for me)

    LTK - 9, FYEO - 8

    Closer than I though it would be, since LTK is pretty far ahead of FYEO in my rankings. Both good Bond films.
  • Posts: 3,336
    PTS: LTK
    Title Track: FYEO
    Title Credits: FYEO
    Main Villain: LTK
    Main Bond Girl: FYEO
    Overall Plot: FYEO
    Dialogue: LTK
    Score: FYEO
    Settings: FYEO
    Action: FYEO
    Humor: FYEO
    Cinematography: FYEO
    Benign Bizarre: LTK
    Suspense: FYEO
    Minor Characters: LTK
    Glamor: FYEO
    Ally: FYEO

    12 - 5 for For your eyes only
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    PTS: FYEO (It's actually quite good until it gets a little silly once Bond scoops up Blofeld.)
    Title Track: FYEO
    Title Credits: FYEO (Neither are favorites but LTK feels particularly uninspired.)
    Main Villain: LTK (Kristatos is underrated but I give the edge to Sanchez.)
    Main Bond Girl: FYEO (No contest here.)
    Overall Plot: FYEO
    Dialogue: FYEO
    Score: FYEO (Never been a big fan of Kamen's score.)
    Settings: FYEO
    Action: LTK (Both are good but I'll give the edge to Dalton for doing a lot of the stunts.)
    Humor: FYEO
    Cinematography: FYEO
    Benign Bizarre: FYEO
    Suspense: FYEO
    Minor Characters: FYEO (By a mile.)
    Glamor: FYEO
    Ally: FYEO (A little confusion in regards to LTK's ally but it doesn't matter. Columbo beats them all easily.)

    FYEO -15
    LTK - 2

    Not a surprise to me. FYEO has always been a favorite while LTK has not.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    PTS: LTK
    Title Track: LTK
    Title Credits: LTK
    Main Villain: FYEO
    Main Bond Girl: FYEO
    Overall Plot: FYEO
    Dialogue: FYEO
    Score: FYEO
    Settings: FYEO
    Action: LTK
    Humor: LTK
    Cinematography: FYEO
    Benign Bizarre: FYEO
    Suspense: LTK
    Minor Characters: FYEO
    Glamor: FYEO
    Ally: FYEO


    FYEO 11
    LTK 6
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    PTS: FYEO
    Title Track: LTK
    Title Credits: FYEO
    Main Villain: LTK
    Main Bond Girl: FYEO
    Overall Plot: FYEO
    Dialogue: FYEO
    Score: LTK
    Settings: FYEO
    Action: FYEO
    Humor: FYEO
    Cinematography: FYEO
    Benign Bizarre: FYEO
    Suspense: FYEO
    Minor Characters: FYEO
    Glamor: FYEO
    Ally: FYEO


    FYEO 14
    LTK 3
    I do prefer FYEO, but that was a surprisingly big victory.
  • SuperheroSithSuperheroSith SE London
    Posts: 578
    PTS: FYEO
    Title Track: LTK
    Title Credits: LTK
    Main Villain: LTK
    Main Bond Girl: LTK
    Overall Plot: LTK
    Dialogue: FYEO (Sorry, LTK, but I love James so much?)
    Score: LTK
    Settings: FYEO
    Action: LTK
    Humor: FYEO
    Cinematography: LTK
    Benign Bizarre: FYEO (I'll buy you a delicatessen in stainless steal!)
    Suspense: LTK
    Minor Characters: LTK
    Glamor: FYEO
    Ally: LTK (The best Leiter ever, IMO)

    11-6 for LTK
  • edited April 2014 Posts: 1,405
    PTS: FYEO (The cemetary visit the best PTS IMO)
    Title Track: LTK
    Title Credits: LTK
    Main Villain: LTK
    Main Bond Girl: LTK
    Overall Plot: LTK
    Dialogue: LTK (remember, you're only President...for life)
    Score: LTK
    Settings: FYEO
    Action: LTK
    Humor: FYEO
    Cinematography: LTK
    Benign Bizarre: FYEO
    Suspense: LTK (really no contest here, LTK smells danger all the way through)
    Minor Characters: LTK
    Glamor: FYEO
    Ally: LTK (How can you vote against Q as an ally for God's sake!)

    LTK 12
    FYEO 5
  • edited April 2014 Posts: 2,483
    PTS: LTK (Neither is particularly great)
    Title Track: FYEO (Gladys Knight is wrong for Bond, and the song is nothing special)
    Title Credits: FYEO (Again, neither is special)
    Main Villain: LTK
    Main Bond Girl: LTK (Pam is one of the greats)
    Overall Plot: FYEO (A close one)
    Dialogue: LTK (A real strong suit for LTK. And contrary to popular opinion, lots of good humor in this one.)
    Score: FYEO (Conti's score is uneven, but more interesting than Kamen's.)
    Settings: FYEO (I am a sucker for European mountain resorts such as Cortina)
    Action: LTK (Although FYEO also has great action)
    Humor: LTK (LTK is really underrated in this category)
    Cinematography: FYEO
    Benign Bizarre: LTK (A rare instance of the newer film besting the older one in this category)
    Suspense: LTK (The climax of LTK is about as good as it gets)
    Minor Characters: LTK (Another real LTK strength)
    Glamor: FYEO
    Ally: FYEO (Columbo is the best Bond ally, period)

    LTK: 9
    FYEO: 8
    Surprisingly close!
  • Posts: 4,762
    PTS: License to Kill (FYEO's is decent, as far as entertainment value goes, but what a disappointing end to Bond's arch-nemesis)
    Title Track: License to Kill
    Title Credits: License to Kill
    Main Villain: License to Kill (I do think that Kristatos is under-rated though; Julian Glover did an excellent job with the role he was given)
    Main Bond Girl: License to Kill
    Overall Plot: For Your Eyes Only (just a little more interesting, frankly)
    Dialogue: License to Kill (a few more "takeaways" here, but both have some marvelous back-and-forth between characters)
    Score: For Your Eyes Only (a few more memorable tracks here, whereas everything in LTK sounds the same; I do like the LTK soundtrack though- just not as much as Conti's FYEO work)
    Settings: For Your Eyes Only
    Action: License to Kill (both are two of the best Bond movies for action, featuring some of my favorite action sequences, but I'll give LTK the win here strictly because of its action-filled finale)
    Humor: For Your Eyes Only (It's hard to beat Roger in the jokes department)
    Cinematography: For Your Eyes Only
    Benign Bizarre: License to Kill
    Suspense: For Your Eyes Only (anyone else get sweaty palms during the rock climbing sequence?)
    Minor Characters: License to Kill (almost a no-brainer there; LTK is chock full of terrific minor characters!)
    Glamor: For Your Eyes Only
    Ally: License to Kill (tough call there, but Sharkey is such a bro, and David Hedison's Felix Leiter is always a welcome face)

    FYEO: 7
    LTK: 10

  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited April 2014 Posts: 13,355
    PTS: LTK
    Title Track: FYEO
    Title Credits: FYEO
    Main Villain: LTK
    Main Bond Girl: FYEO
    Overall Plot: FYEO
    Dialogue: LTK
    Score: FYEO
    Settings: FYEO
    Action: LTK
    Humour: FYEO
    Cinematography: FYEO
    Benign Bizarre: LTK
    Suspense: FYEO
    Minor Characters: LTK
    Glamor: FYEO
    Ally: FYEO
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