Why did Craig succeed when Dalton failed?

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  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Germanlady wrote: »
    If you read through this thread, its mostly a gathering of Daltonites who are just tireless in their effort to declare him the King of cool and his rather lame reception as a result of audiences not ready for the new approach. Fair enough but I would say, its also fair to go by the title, which is Why did DC succeed, where he failed? IMO the answer is very easy. I am old enough to have seen the films in the theater. As a Bond fan, who had seen them all, it was a sure thing to go and watch the new Bond. I went with a bunch of friends and we came out ALL agreeing, that this new Bond just didnt HAVE it. Not sexy, not attractive enough. And with DC not on the plate for ages, you can hardly blame that with my later found fandom. But this is the difference, audiences, women and men, went crazy over DC after CR. THIS is what you need for Bond. Everything else will result in meh, like it did. To be fair, the new direction didnt help, but with a more interesting actor in the role, it wouldnt have mattered.

    That is exactly as I remember it as well. I never recall any female I knew at the time going gooey over Timbo. He was a handsome man of sorts, but he didn't have the X factor that Connery had and that Craig has now. Maybe, as he wasn't one of the beefcake Bonds it had something to do with it, but from the perspective of the ladies he didn't tick enough boxes.
    Women who liked Roger also liked Brosnan, but they brought a different kind of Bond to the screen.
    This isn't of course without exception. There are bound to be some women who did like Dalton, but he seems to be more popular with a small but hardcore male audience, most of whom are on here. ;-).

    He is the cult Bond.

  • Posts: 6,601
    Wjatever I could answer, would be just more pf the same, but I do believe, that even the most ardent fan cannot really call him a sex god. Had he been seen as such at the time by a good majority, his career as Bond would habe lasted longer, I am sure. But individual taste is not debatable, not yours, not mine.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2015 Posts: 23,883
    If we're discussing looks and charisma, then just from the women in my family and those I talked to about it at the time - Dalton did not have it in comparison, and this is the big point that's being missed here - in comparison to Moore. Roger Moore, whatever you may think of him, was a very good looking fella and he amassed a loyal following among many women after 12+ yrs playing Bond. I've never come across a woman who's said she did not find Moore handsome. I don't think it's a weak at the knees sort of thing when assessing Moore, but rather an admiration for the way the man looked and conducted himself with the opposite sex as Bond - which is to say, for the most part, in a gentlemanly fashion. If I may say, with a bit of Freudian daring, there is a father thing going on here.

    Brosnan definitely had more in the looks dept. than Dalton did. He is and was more conventionally handsome. He appealed far more to the women that I spoke with about it at the time. This definitely contributed to his success in comparison to Dalton. As @NicNac said, the appeal is similar to Moore.

    Craig has the raw sex appeal in spades. That was emphasized and established well ahead of the release of CR with the infamous beach shot (which rather was like a Calvin Klein underwear ad to a degree, as well as a throwback to Connery machismo). The raw masculinity of Craig appeals on a quite different and more visceral level imho. The women I've spoken with find Craig attractive, but their reaction when I mention him (and this is a subtle observation on my part) suggests a more sexual attractiveness than what I find when discussing either Brosnan or Moore, where it's more admiration based..

    What I have noticed as well though is Moore is almost unanimously remembered more fondly than Brosnan among the women I have spoken with who are old enough to have seen all the films. I am not sure if that is because Dalton replaced Moore, because Craig replaced Brosnan, because of nostalgia for Moore, because of the reboot, or indeed if it's because many have reassessed their appreciation for Brosnan post-Craig.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,731
    All well and good - though Dalton's tenure was not cut short because of his sex appeal, or lack of it. It was because EoN and Cubby did not back him and the franchise properly with budget, quality of output and marketing.
    The franchise went AWOL because of poor management.

    Babs & Michael G Wilson pulled out all the stops to make sure Daniel Craig became a hit.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Many women found Dalton extremely sexy as Bond and he seems to have gained more fangirls swooning over him as Sir Malcolm in PD.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    AceHole wrote: »
    All well and good - though Dalton's tenure was not cut short because of his sex appeal, or lack of it. It was because EoN and Cubby did not back him and the franchise properly with budget, quality of output and marketing.
    The franchise went AWOL because of poor management.

    Babs & Michael G Wilson pulled out all the stops to make sure Daniel Craig became a hit.

    I do believe a level of complacency was settling in during the late 80s, as if the name 'Bond' all by itself would generate a box office hit. So yes Cubby was resting on his laurels, but he had been doing the same for years.

    However, as I remember, TLD had as much promotion as the most recent Moore outings. They had Maibaum on script duties, brought on board a popular band of the time - A-ha - to do the main song, employed a stellar cast and had a good budget. So Cubby wasn't messing around. He wanted to launch Dalton in a good film, and succeeded. I remember plenty of TV exposure for the film and for Dalton.

    I just think Bond was in need of a real good shake up, and maybe the 6 year break, followed by a more high tech Bond and a popular actor in the US, was what the series needed.

    Of course Dalton can't be fully blamed for the downward trend of the series, it was already heading that way with the later Moores, but he didn't exactly halt the slump and whether we like it or not Pierce Brosnan did do just that.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    AceHole wrote: »
    All well and good - though Dalton's tenure was not cut short because of his sex appeal, or lack of it. It was because EoN and Cubby did not back him and the franchise properly with budget, quality of output and marketing.
    The franchise went AWOL because of poor management.

    Babs & Michael G Wilson pulled out all the stops to make sure Daniel Craig became a hit.

    I think EON backed Dalton as much as they should/could have. TLD did have a reasonable budget and marketing. LTK not so much admittedly but then any movie would have been lost in 1989 against the massive stuff coming out that yr (the Bat, Indie etc.).

    I disagree on the quality of output statement though. I believe the quality of output was there. LTK & TLD are two of the franchise's best, if not necessarily the most commercially appealing.

    Whether we like it or not though, I'd safely say that Dalton's sex appeal is probably the least successful among women of all the Bond's, and that did have an impact (although difficult to quantify) on the financial success of his Bond films.
  • Posts: 15,106
    I'm going to say something very controversial here: TLD and probably LTK would have been more popular with Brosnan... Although not as good, especially LTK. And on long term it would have hurt the franchise more.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713
    I posted this in the Dalton appreciation thread, and I'll post it here too:

    You don't like Dalton as Bond?

    deal_with_it_james_bond.gif


    :D
  • Posts: 15,106
    I do like Dalton, but his popularity was not as high as the other Bonds except Lazenby.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited May 2015 Posts: 15,713
    IMO it does seem that in non-Bond fans circles, even Lazenby is more well known than Dalton, because they know him as 'the guy who made only one 007 film'.
  • Posts: 618
    An ex-girlfriend of mine -- whom I lived with for some years before meeting the lovely lady I eventually married -- actually became a Bond fan because of Dalton... who did make her weak in the knees.

    She apparently had a thing for the dark, brooding type... since she also had the hots for Oliver Reed (of the 1960s-70s, before he bloated up with booze).
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,731
    CraterGuns wrote: »
    An ex-girlfriend of mine -- whom I lived with for some years before meeting the lovely lady I eventually married -- actually became a Bond fan because of Dalton... who did make her weak in the knees.

    She apparently had a thing for the dark, brooding type... since she also had the hots for Oliver Reed (of the 1960s-70s, before he bloated up with booze).

    Well, same here. Maybe it says something about the type of women I socialize with then :)

    In any case, as a male viewer I found Dalts actually pulled me into the film & the character far more than any of the other Bonds, he made me both believe and emotionally invest in the persona - something only he and DC have done so far...
    THAT is what I want from the actor who plays 007.
  • Posts: 15,106
    I'm sure there are women who find Dalton hot. But this is not, this was not the majority during his tenure.
  • Posts: 686
    According to Barbara Broccoli, we were just too stupid and backwards to understand LTK (Interview EON: Everything or Nothing - The Story of 007). I think the fact that Bond is no longer as relevant as it once was and that there is a Bond movie every 4 years instead of every 2 years has helped Craig, although I am not really sure I would consider the Craig era a "success"
  • Posts: 15,106
    It is a success both critical and popular. Regardless of what one thinks of it. I don't like TSWLM but it was a success regardless.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Perdogg wrote: »
    According to Barbara Broccoli, we were just too stupid and backwards to understand LTK (Interview EON: Everything or Nothing - The Story of 007).

    In terms of the masses, there may sadly be some truth to this. They had to change the name to accommodate some fools who did not understand what it meant during focus groups after all.
  • Perdogg wrote: »
    I think the fact that Bond is no longer as relevant as it once was and that there is a Bond movie every 4 years instead of every 2 years has helped Craig, although I am not really sure I would consider the Craig era a "success"

    If Craig's tenure as Bond has not been a success then I'd like buckets full of failure please. How many Billion dollars does the franchise need to take in before you'll acknowledge that Craig has been successful?
  • Posts: 15,106
    Perdogg wrote: »
    I think the fact that Bond is no longer as relevant as it once was and that there is a Bond movie every 4 years instead of every 2 years has helped Craig, although I am not really sure I would consider the Craig era a "success"

    If Craig's tenure as Bond has not been a success then I'd like buckets full of failure please. How many Billion dollars does the franchise need to take in before you'll acknowledge that Craig has been successful?

    And this is regardless of personal appreciation of Craig's tenure. It is a success both critically and financially. Heck financially it's a triumph.
  • Posts: 686
    if you want to define success as only money, then fine. I think the Bond movies are destroying the novels.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Perdogg wrote: »
    if you want to define success as only money, then fine. I think the Bond movies are destroying the novels.

    I am not saying success or indeed quality (as I think you are implying), is only defined by financial gain. That said I do not share at all your pessimism. But regardless of one's opinion towards the quality of the Craig tenure, one has to say that it is successful both popularly and critically. Whether or not it will sustain the test of time, whether or not it is harmful to the novels (and I don't think any movie, good or bad, can be) is an entirely different debate.

    I don't think TSWLM deserves the popularity it had and still has. Yet it is a successful Bond movie. The Craig era so far has been far more popular both with the public and critics than the Dalton era was at its time. Hence my original question.
  • Perdogg wrote: »
    if you want to define success as only money, then fine. I think the Bond movies are destroying the novels.

    Just a second, let me check...no, the novels are just fine. Mine are right where I left them and I'll bet yours are too. The Fleming James Bond novels are still available in new editions in bookstores and online booksellers all over the world. Your fear for the continued existence of the novels is pretty much groundless. Sorry to be the bearer of good tidings.

    If your only definition of "success" is whether or not YOU PERSONALLY are enjoying the current spate of movies, then that's a pretty limited definition. My definition of success is the amount of new viewers, and therefore potential new Bond fans, brought in by the current movies...and there again, by any logical definition of the term, the movies are successful. I'm sorry you aren't enjoying the current batch...but as long as they continue to make money, Eon will continue to make more Bond movies. Eventually they may even make something that meets your standards. If they were to STOP making Bond movies, then the likelihood of that happening would effectively reach Zero. I prefer the odds the way things are now, thank you very much.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Perdogg wrote: »
    if you want to define success as only money, then fine. I think the Bond movies are destroying the novels.

    Just a second, let me check...no, the novels are just fine. Mine are right where I left them and I'll bet yours are too. The Fleming James Bond novels are still available in new editions in bookstores and online booksellers all over the world. Your fear for the continued existence of the novels is pretty much groundless. Sorry to be the bearer of good tidings.

    If your only definition of "success" is whether or not YOU PERSONALLY are enjoying the current spate of movies, then that's a pretty limited definition. My definition of success is the amount of new viewers, and therefore potential new Bond fans, brought in by the current movies...and there again, by any logical definition of the term, the movies are successful. I'm sorry you aren't enjoying the current batch...but as long as they continue to make money, Eon will continue to make more Bond movies. Eventually they may even make something that meets your standards. If they were to STOP making Bond movies, then the likelihood of that happening would effectively reach Zero. I prefer the odds the way things are now, thank you very much.

    A classic post.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    Perdogg wrote: »
    if you want to define success as only money, then fine. I think the Bond movies are destroying the novels.

    He didn't ..mentioned critically success as well.

  • edited May 2015 Posts: 15,106
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    if you want to define success as only money, then fine. I think the Bond movies are destroying the novels.

    He didn't ..mentioned critically success as well.

    And beside, if one considers a movie overrated... It is still a critical success, whether one likes it or not. I find Forrest Gump utterly and completely overrated and undeserving of its critical praise and its popularity. But it was a success, no doubt.
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    A classic post.

    Thanks, but Pshaw. T'aint nuthin. Some posts write themselves...

  • Posts: 686
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    if you want to define success as only money, then fine. I think the Bond movies are destroying the novels.

    He didn't ..mentioned critically success as well.

    I recall most of the reviews in the US were mixed.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Ludovico wrote: »
    A classic post.

    Thanks, but Pshaw. T'aint nuthin. Some posts write themselves...

    The post was a success regardless. Critically, if not financially.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Perdogg wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    if you want to define success as only money, then fine. I think the Bond movies are destroying the novels.

    He didn't ..mentioned critically success as well.

    I recall most of the reviews in the US were mixed.

    Of CR? Of SF? You must be joking! QOS had mixed reviews (unfairly IMO), but nobody blamed Craig's acting for the movie. Critics were far more indulgent regarding his second movie than they ever were to Dalton at the time of LTK's release.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,582
    If you were to rank each of the actors' first Bond films, CR would probably be #1, right? Here's how I'd rank 'em. My guess is that a lot of people would switch #3 and #4.
    1. CR
    2. DN
    3. LALD
    4. OHMSS (one one)
    5. GE
    6. TLD

    Point is, DC had a much better film in CR than Dalton did in TLD. But then there's another issue: Craig was just a much better actor in his debut than Dalton.
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