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Why did Craig succeed when Dalton failed?

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    You know what might be very novel? A thread here not about Brosnan that didn't turn into a Brosnan bash-fest. 8->
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,106
    Perdogg wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I didn't know about Remington Steele. I had seen Brosnan in Around the World in 80 Days, knew he was supposed to be Bond, and this it was enough for me: why wasn't he? Nothing that Dalton could have done would have changed that. It's beyond a strawman, it is really a ghost from the future. Brosnan was a thorn at Dalton's side, and he had pierced (sorry for the pun) an artery. Craig may have faced hostility, but Brosnan's star had waned and he had his critics, even some detractors, by 2005. And I think it did play a role on the long run for Craig's success.

    Brosnan played a Soviet illegal in "The Fourth Protocol", was great in it.. Dalton failure was due to many factors including an awful LTK, Bond Fatigue, and growing box office irrelevancy of the Bond Series (to the point where EON is 'stealing' from Chris Nolan's Batman) . Brosnan failure was due to garbage such as Tomorrow Never Dies, TWINE, and of course Die Another Day.

    Craig got the advantage in coming after DAD, eventhough all of his movies are a heap of PC mediocrity.

    Have you seen how the casting of Daniel Craig was received at first? With downright hostility, skepticism at best. DAD, however dreadful it was, did not help him in the least to be accepted as Bond. His talent and skills as an actor was. Whatever you may think of his tenure now (yes, we all know you don't like it, but it is nevertheless a success, because the world exists outside your own mind).
    chrisisall wrote: »
    You know what might be very novel? A thread here not about Brosnan that didn't turn into a Brosnan bash-fest. 8->

    I don't bash Brosnan, what I say about him here are pretty much fair comment: Dalton was perceived as an usurper and when Craig took over, Brosnan had not the same aura he had when he took the role.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Ludovico wrote: »
    when Craig took over, Brosnan had not the same aura he had when he took the role.
    Really? From who's perspective? People that hated him? Oh, okay- that makes sense, because I along with most of the general movie-going public still seemed to love him even in DAD.
    :D
  • LudovicoLudovico
    edited June 2015 Posts: 15,106
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    when Craig took over, Brosnan had not the same aura he had when he took the role.
    Really? From who's perspective? People that hated him? Oh, okay- that makes sense, because I along with most of the general movie-going public still seemed to love him even in DAD.
    :D

    He didn't have as many people that hated him in 1995. Not nearly as many critics in any case. I remember the Dalton fans I met back in 1995. I could count the ones I met on one hand. They didn't have a leg to stand on. Brosnan was the best since Sean Connery, even before GE had started filming. That was no longer the case in 2005. It's not that he was universally hated, he just did not have the same status. People had grown more critical of his tenure.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Pierce will always be the best Bond. ;)
    423b0f2bffba25eb87c504adfc6c4cb0.jpg
    Deal with it.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Pierce did and does indeed rock as Bond.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I don't hate him. That's a strong word. I have never hated any Bond actor personally. I actually wanted him for Bond more than most.

    I do think though that of all the Bond actors, he did not live up to his potential. There was a persistent credibility gap with me, but I can't put my finger on what it was. The idea of Bronan as Bond was better than the reality of him for me.....and that troubled me.

    By the time Craig was announced, I was personally relieved, even though I did not know who he was initially.

    I did go and see all of Brosnan's Bond films in the theatre (some more than once) and had no personal problem with him as Bond (despite the declining quality of his films)........but I was never as enthused about him as I was before he was cast. I've wrestled with why that was, and @Ludovico has helped me to understand why.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Brosnan was the Bond I wanted back then, and getting him was a gift as far as I'm concerned. Then pairing him with my favourite action actress in TND was icing on the cake. I'll always be glad for his tenure.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    edited June 2015 Posts: 15,106
    bondjames wrote: »
    I don't hate him. That's a strong word. I have never hated any Bond actor personally. I actually wanted him for Bond more than most.

    I do think though that of all the Bond actors, he did not live up to his potential. There was a persistent credibility gap with me, but I can't put my finger on what it was. The idea of Bronan as Bond was better than the reality of him for me.....and that troubled me.

    By the time Craig was announced, I was personally relieved, even though I did not know who he was initially.

    I did go and see all of Brosnan's Bond films in the theatre (some more than once) and had no personal problem with him as Bond (despite the declining quality of his films)........but I was never as enthused about him as I was before he was cast. I've wrestled with why that was, and @Ludovico has helped me to understand why.

    I think it is fair to say that Brosnan's tenure ended up disappointing many. Not everyone and not always through faults of his own. It really took me DAD to reevaluate his time as Bond and see that things hadn't add up. But I still wanted him to do another one. But I didn't want it to be more of the same, that I knew.

    I also think it's fair to say that people became gradually far more critical of him as time went on and that by the time Craig was cast Brosnan had received far more criticism and even hostility than before.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Brosnan was the Bond I wanted back then, and getting him was a gift as far as I'm concerned. Then pairing him with my favourite action actress in TND was icing on the cake. I'll always be glad for his tenure.

    I'm glad he did Bond too. I wouldn't change anything about GE, but my favourite Brosnan actress is Scorupco hands down. ^:)^
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2015 Posts: 15,713
    IMO Brosnan's tenure of looking properly Bond-like and badass is still ongoing. Brosnan looks utterly fantastic for his age, I'd gladly prefer him to return as Bond if Craig is suddenly unavailable for B25 than any other suggestion I've seen mentioned in the 'potential Bond actor thread'.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    IMO Brosnan's tenure of looking properly Bond-like and badass is still ongoing. Brosnan looks utterly fantastic for his age, I'd gladly prefer him to return as Bond if Craig is suddenly unavailable for B25 than any other suggestion I've seen mentioned in the 'potential Bond actor thread'.

    @DaltonCraig007, some of the suggestions in that thread are suspect to say the least. Bros does look good for his age, no doubt, and I'm looking forward to some November Man sequels before he gets too old for them.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,106
    Brosnan is far too old to play Bond. He looks very good for a man of his age, always will I am sure, but he certainly looks his age.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713
    @bondjames I am also very excited for more 'November Man' films with Brosnan. And they also make me wish that some director/producer will give the same type of film to Dalton. The guy may be in his 70's now, but he is still the major super-badass action hero that never was, and with how he looks in 'Penny Dreadful', it's not too late for him to kickstart his career again and get the recognition he deserves. Dalton could be the Liam Neeson of the 2010's.
  • fjdinardofjdinardo
    edited June 2015 Posts: 1,970
    Brosnan is my favorite Bond, but anyone can see at least imo that all Brosnan was used for was to resurrect the series and make money thats it. The series was pretty much considered dead during the 6 year gap and Brosnan was used to resurrect it nothing more. The producers just simply wanted to make money with Brosnan rather then tell a great story.

    Thats how i see Brosnans Bond tenure in a nut shull.

    TWINE is my favorite Bond film of all time just throwing it out there.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    @bondjames I am also very excited for more 'November Man' films with Brosnan. And they also make me wish that some director/producer will give the same type of film to Dalton. The guy may be in his 70's now, but he is still the major super-badass action hero that never was, and with how he looks in 'Penny Dreadful', it's not too late for him to kickstart his career again and get the recognition he deserves. Dalton could be the Liam Neeson of the 2010's.

    I am 100% in agreement. Dalton deserves a final act. I haven't seen Penny Dreadful yet but will be getting season 1 soon so I'm looking forward to seeing him in action after many years.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Dalton & Brosnan in a film TOGETHER! Think on the possibilities!!! @-)
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2015 Posts: 15,713
    Brosnan is the first Bond I ever saw, and will always have a special place in my heart, Moore is my favorite Bond, Craig is the first Bond I saw on the big screen, but Dalton is just something else. Whenever I read/hear his name somewhere, I get a huge grin on my face, moreso than for the other 5 Bond's. I just can't get enough of his uber badassery, and I find it shocking that there's only his 2 Bond outings and a handful of other film he's made to whet our appetite. Of all the actors I love (Denzel Washington, Pacino, De Niro, Neeson, Craig, Brosnan, Moore, Caine, Cruise, Costner...), I would rank Dalton higher then them for the sheer excitement he gives me whenever I see him in a movie/tv show or interview. There may be the Bond's that never were, but IMO Dalton is the mega-star that never was.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    IMO Dalton is the mega-star that never was.
    Totally agree, and he is my favourite Bond!
  • CrabKeyCrabKey
    Posts: 1,971
    The decision to remain with a Bond actor is determined by the producers. The question should be directed toward them.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Ludovico sums it up well. It was his films that were disspointing not Brozza himself (bar his running ability).
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,731
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Ludovico sums it up well. It was his films that were disspointing not Brozza himself (bar his running ability).

    When running Pierce always looked like someone was chasing him from behind whilst trying to stick a sharp spike up his arse...

    Can't believe this thread is still going by the way.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,106
    AceHole wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Ludovico sums it up well. It was his films that were disspointing not Brozza himself (bar his running ability).

    When running Pierce always looked like someone was chasing him from behind whilst trying to stick a sharp spike up his arse...

    Can't believe this thread is still going by the way.

    That is off topic but yes. Brosnan was always the worst looking runner of all Bonds.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    AceHole wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Ludovico sums it up well. It was his films that were disspointing not Brozza himself (bar his running ability).

    When running Pierce always looked like someone was chasing him from behind whilst trying to stick a sharp spike up his arse...

    Can't believe this thread is still going by the way.

    That is off topic but yes. Brosnan was always the worst looking runner of all Bonds.

    I thought Brosnan looked ridiculous running. He looked like he was trying (as he always did) but looked ridiculous nonetheless imho.

    Craig runs with real purpose (SF in London for example).

    Connery didn't run, but moved amazingly (rooftops of YOLT) - almost to say, "real men don't run", they "glide"

    Moore was terrible too, but that's widely acknowledged.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,106
    Ok Brosnan was the worst looking runner imo. But it's off topic anyway.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    edited June 2015 Posts: 1,731
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    AceHole wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Ludovico sums it up well. It was his films that were disspointing not Brozza himself (bar his running ability).

    When running Pierce always looked like someone was chasing him from behind whilst trying to stick a sharp spike up his arse...

    Can't believe this thread is still going by the way.

    That is off topic but yes. Brosnan was always the worst looking runner of all Bonds.

    I thought Brosnan looked ridiculous running. He looked like he was trying (as he always did) but looked ridiculous nonetheless imho.

    Craig runs with real purpose (SF in London for example).

    Connery didn't run, but moved amazingly (rooftops of YOLT) - almost to say, "real men don't run", they "glide"

    Moore was terrible too, but that's widely acknowledged.

    Tim had a weird wobble whilst running in the TLD pts which didn't bode well, now that I think of it :> But he looked pretty good scrambling across the rooftops in Tangiers...
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    The thread is probably running out of steam now, so maybe we should ask everyone to add their final thoughts in the grand Craig and Dalton debate before quietly retiring the thread for good. ;)
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    edited June 2015 Posts: 1,731
    NicNac wrote: »
    The thread is probably running out of steam now, so maybe we should ask everyone to add their final thoughts in the grand Craig and Dalton debate before quietly retiring the thread for good. ;)

    Superb idea. My final thought would be:

    Dan can run better than Tim, had nicer from and better cadence in full stride -> ergo sum the public accepted him more than Tim.

    Phew, glad we got that one sorted :D
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Final, succinct thought from me: It all came down to timing (bad from Dalton's perspective), Brosnan (who helped Craig succeed and hurt Dalton due to expectations that he never met) and Craig (who executed better than Dalton undoubtedly, but not as much so as is widely presumed).

    It's a great thread by the way. It's helped me to get over my guilt at not giving Dalt's his fair shake during his run.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Tim was too serious for the era; Dan is just right for post 9-11.
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