Why did Craig succeed when Dalton failed?

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  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Lupe comes into Bond's room at Sanchez's mansion and seduces him by saying (very convincingly) "don't go...I'm scared"

    Then the next day she calls in on Pam when her and Q are talking. Thats when she says "last night he stayed with me", hence Pam's jealousy.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Ok. Thanks for clearing that up. So it is an inferred sleepover. Now the question is did he or didn't he?

    Regardless, the fact that it is inferred and took all of us a while to recall the exact scene I think says they wanted to dial down the Bond seduction aspect (arguably she seduces him?).
  • Posts: 15,106
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ok. Thanks for clearing that up. So it is an inferred sleepover. Now the question is did he or didn't he?

    Regardless, the fact that it is inferred and took all of us a while to recall the exact scene I think says they wanted to dial down the Bond seduction aspect (arguably she seduces him?).

    He did. In my mind at least, there has never been any doubt that he did.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Nah, I'm sure he beds her. Don't they even wake up in bed together?
  • Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote: »
    Nah, I'm sure he beds her. Don't they even wake up in bed together?

    Nope, they kiss and lie down then next scene.

  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Nah, I'm sure he beds her. Don't they even wake up in bed together?

    Nope, they kiss and lie down then next scene.

    And what's the consensus? Do they do it or not?
  • ThomasCrown76ThomasCrown76 Augusta, ks
    Posts: 757
    He boinked away any acting ability she ever had;)
  • Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Nah, I'm sure he beds her. Don't they even wake up in bed together?

    Nope, they kiss and lie down then next scene.

    And what's the consensus? Do they do it or not?

    If you mean Bond and Lupe then YEEEESSSS!!!!!
  • Posts: 15,106
    Getafix wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Nah, I'm sure he beds her. Don't they even wake up in bed together?

    Nope, they kiss and lie down then next scene.

    And what's the consensus? Do they do it or not?

    Well, if they kiss and lie down, it certainly was not to admire the ceiling!
    He boinked away any acting ability she ever had;)

    Is spite of this, I actually really loved Lupe.
  • ThomasCrown76ThomasCrown76 Augusta, ks
    Posts: 757
    She was a great looker, but poorly written
  • Posts: 11,189
    "James please listen to me...there's guards all over the place you'll never make it"

    #-o
  • Posts: 11,425
    Lupe looked great. That was why Sanchez wanted her - just an ornament.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Getafix wrote: »
    Lupe looked great. That was why Sanchez wanted her - just an ornament.

    Maybe this is why I forgive her acting limitations.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713
    I watched LTK a couple of days ago. Epic film. Cheap looking? Not Bondian enough? Too much like Miami Vice? All irrelevant - LTK is for me one of the best Bond films, and Dalton's performance is simply mindblowing. I love Lupe and the soundtrack. Oh, if only the american audiences had been more pleased by Dalton...
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Check out this great review from the LA Times I just posted here:

    http://www.mi6community.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1476/licence-to-kill-best-bond-film-ever#latest

    If only the other US viewers had responded in the same way. Just goes to show that people were recognising at the time that this was a special Bond movie.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I think Craig succeeded because it was the right time, the public wanted
    A more realistic take on Bond.
  • Posts: 15,106
    I watched LTK a couple of days ago. Epic film. Cheap looking? Not Bondian enough? Too much like Miami Vice? All irrelevant - LTK is for me one of the best Bond films, and Dalton's performance is simply mindblowing. I love Lupe and the soundtrack. Oh, if only the american audiences had been more pleased by Dalton...

    Funny because it is one of the most American Bond films. Maybe the Americans missed the exoticism?

    Anyway we are off topic. Or maybe not quite: LTK may have been not exotic enough for some people's taste and it may have played a role in the impression people had of Dalton. Dalton's rather gloomy comments during filming may not have helped.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote: »
    Check out this great review from the LA Times I just posted here:

    http://www.mi6community.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1476/licence-to-kill-best-bond-film-ever#latest

    If only the other US viewers had responded in the same way. Just goes to show that people were recognising at the time that this was a special Bond movie.

    It's a good movie but it's really not THAT great. Even Dalton has been critical of the film.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I think Dalton was actually doing fine. LTK made money - not enough in the US, but it was not a box office flop when you take the rest of the world into account. He just needed a third film in 91. Look at Rog after Gun - it was not well received and they followed up with an all time classic.
  • ThomasCrown76ThomasCrown76 Augusta, ks
    Posts: 757
    How come roger Moore got the third film and not dalton? I mean I know, but it doesn't make it fair
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Rog was already a popular star with the (US) public though. Dalton was not.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713
    Moore got his third film I think because EON could not afford a 4th recast in 5 films.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think Dalton was actually doing fine. LTK made money - not enough in the US, but it was not a box office flop when you take the rest of the world into account. He just needed a third film in 91. Look at Rog after Gun - it was not well received and they followed up with an all time classic.

    Rog had no rival though and he was not perceived as a usurper by some. I think what hurt Dalton was also Brosnan: he was the heir apparent, at least in the public's eyes, he was building his whole darn career on the role he did not have, etc.

    And, incidentally, Brosnan may have played a role in Craig being accepted and popular.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think Dalton was actually doing fine. LTK made money - not enough in the US, but it was not a box office flop when you take the rest of the world into account. He just needed a third film in 91. Look at Rog after Gun - it was not well received and they followed up with an all time classic.

    Rog had no rival though and he was not perceived as a usurper by some. I think what hurt Dalton was also Brosnan: he was the heir apparent, at least in the public's eyes, he was building his whole darn career on the role he did not have, etc.

    And, incidentally, Brosnan may have played a role in Craig being accepted and popular.

    Very true. Good points.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I'd never heard of the Broz before he was cast. He was pretty unknown in the UK I think.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Getafix wrote: »
    I'd never heard of the Broz before he was cast. He was pretty unknown in the UK I think.

    But not in the US or North America. I knew of Brosnan as a potential Bond when I was 13 and LTK was out on videos... before I even saw LTK! I had watched Around the World in 80 Days which had been a big TV success and I remember that everybody I talked to about it wanted him as Bond. Six years later when GE came out, it was a dream come true. Believe me Dalton did not have it easy in the public's eye. It was utterly unfair, but there you go.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Agreed. Even I saw Dalton as a usurper at the time and wanted Brosnan. Now I am ashamed for that.
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Incidently, Around The World in 80 Days also had Christopher Lee and Patrick MacNee in it. Taffin also had Alison Doody (Jenny Flex) as Broza's love interest, Brozza's wife and Remington Steele co-star was in FYEO and last but not least one of his first films was The Mirror Crak'd - directed by Guy Hamilton.

    Bond seemed to follow Brosnan around.
  • Posts: 11,425
    EON must take some of the blame for not helping to build their man up.
  • Posts: 15,106
    bondjames wrote: »
    Agreed. Even I saw Dalton as a usurper at the time and wanted Brosnan. Now I am ashamed for that.

    So did I. I didn't even knew Dalton was Bond I already wanted him out! And what happened when Brosnan left was very different: no heir apparent (they were of course two dozen actors mentioned, but no one that made consensus in the general public), Brosnan's star itself had faded, as well as his aura as Bond, his legacy was already being criticized and even challenged, even by early days fans (like myself), etc. People became ready for a new approach because they have had enough of the old one, Brosnan had literally exhausted it.
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