Why did Craig succeed when Dalton failed?

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  • Posts: 11,189
    I'm sure @Getafix would love to drag Dalton away from his busy schedule and lure him back to Bond.

    Somehow I don't think Dalton would oblige.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Getafix wrote: »
    Doesn't he bed Lupe in Sanchez's mansion?
    Yes, he did. At least it was implied, although we only saw the prelude. he sacrificed himself. ;)
  • Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I'm sure @Getafix would love to drag Dalton away from his busy schedule and lure him back to Bond.

    Somehow I don't think Dalton would oblige.

    He just needs to be told that John Glen is back in the director's chair! He'd be there in a flash.
  • Posts: 11,189
    No he wouldn't. It's fairly well known that those two weren't the best of friends.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited January 2015 Posts: 15,713
    Dalton should (re)start his own action movie career a-la Brosnan in November Man or Neeson in Taken. Sure he is older and not that fit, but I'd love for Dalton to get his own franchise playing a world weary spy coming back from retirement to kick some major butts! Please; before he gets too old!
  • Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    No he wouldn't. It's fairly well known that those two weren't the best of friends.

    I was joking...
  • Posts: 11,189
    Ah I see :p
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,582
    I think there's a premise here that might be flawed. I'm not sure we can say "Dalton failed." But based on some posts here, it seems we may be asking, "Why did Dalton's films fail the B.O. test in 1987 and 1989?" Because I'm not sure that the films' lackluster B.O. had much to do with Dalton and all to do with material and production design.

    Even by late 80s standards, those two Bond films look cheaply made. They actually look more like made-for-TV movies. Now, in retrospect, it works for LTK, because to me that film's allure, 25+ years later, is its campiness.

    As for Dalton: he was great. However, the difference between Dalton and Craig is that Dalton's performance wasn't as multidimensional. Craig says a lot more with a look than Dalton does.

    A good example: the National gallery scene with Q. Craig's reaction when Ben Whishaw sits next to him speaks 1,000 words. It's subtle, yet effective. Craig's character has more emotion--but controlled emotion. I found Dalton's performance a little flatter, more one dimensional.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I see the point about Craig being able to show controlled, restrained emotion. I think that's one of his best attributes as an actor - like when he looks at Vesper in the shower in CR, or when he's reacting to the psyche questions in SF. He's brilliant at that.

    I'm not sure I agree with the producion design comments re: LTD & TLD however. I found them both very good. The aerial sequences in both were quite stunning and the Key West Sanchez escape was well done (done better in True Lies a few years later, but still....). The tanker chase in LTK & the blowing up of Wayne Newton's hangout were also well done I thought.

    Perhaps Dalton should have combed his hair in LTK and worn some more classic suits like he did in TLD, but that's a different discussion....
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    I see the point about Craig being able to show controlled, restrained emotion. I think that's one of his best attributes as an actor - like when he looks at Vesper in the shower in CR, or when he's reacting to the psyche questions in SF. He's brilliant at that.

    I'm not sure I agree with the producion design comments re: LTD & TLD however. I found them both very good. The aerial sequences in both were quite stunning and the Key West Sanchez escape was well done (done better in True Lies a few years later, but still....). The tanker chase in LTK & the blowing up of Wayne Newton's hangout were also well done I thought.

    Perhaps Dalton should have combed his hair in LTK and worn some more classic suits like he did in TLD, but that's a different discussion....

    How many times has the LTK PTS been ripped off in other films now? It seems to be endlessly reused. Doesn't one of the MI films use it as well?

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I see the point about Craig being able to show controlled, restrained emotion. I think that's one of his best attributes as an actor - like when he looks at Vesper in the shower in CR, or when he's reacting to the psyche questions in SF. He's brilliant at that.

    I'm not sure I agree with the producion design comments re: LTD & TLD however. I found them both very good. The aerial sequences in both were quite stunning and the Key West Sanchez escape was well done (done better in True Lies a few years later, but still....). The tanker chase in LTK & the blowing up of Wayne Newton's hangout were also well done I thought.

    Perhaps Dalton should have combed his hair in LTK and worn some more classic suits like he did in TLD, but that's a different discussion....

    How many times has the LTK PTS been ripped off in other films now? It seems to be endlessly reused. Doesn't one of the MI films use it as well?

    It's similar in MI3 but not the same location. I think True Lies is the same spot.

    I noticed that when I saw LTK recently. It really had some great sequences in the pretitles and others have taken the concept and added to it since (e.g TDKR opening scene which has Glen era Bond written all over it).
  • Posts: 11,189
    I think some of the early shots in LTK look a bit shoddy. I'm thinking especially of the first shot directly after the opening credits as well as some of the interior sets (Felix's house and the interview room where Sanchez is held) which certainly have a television feel to them. Also, the sequence when Bond and Pam are escaping from the bar in the boat looks quite bad.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I think some of the early shots in LTK look a bit shoddy. I'm thinking especially of the first shot directly after the opening credits as well as some of the interior sets (Felix's house and the interview room where Sanchez is held) which certainly have a television feel to them. Also, the sequence when Bond and Pam are escaping from the bar in the boat looks quite bad.

    That's very true. Some of the on-ground scenes do have a cheap tv feel. I think that may have something to do with the US location, but yes, it's true. As I said somewhere else, even the actors had a tv flavour (the guys playing Sharkey, Killifer, Hawkins etc) and Priscilla Barnes (Mrs. Leiter) is a 70's tv queen.
  • Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I think some of the early shots in LTK look a bit shoddy. I'm thinking especially of the first shot directly after the opening credits as well as some of the interior sets (Felix's house and the interview room where Sanchez is held) which certainly have a television feel to them. Also, the sequence when Bond and Pam are escaping from the bar in the boat looks quite bad.

    @BAIN123, the film was shot in Mexico for budget reasons. There are perhaps a few shoddy moments, but that applies to a lot of the 70s and 80s Bonds. I think most people recognise that the action sequences in LTK are pretty well done. The fact that other big Hollywood directors are still ripping off the PTS 20 years later shows you how Bond was still setting the standard even in 89.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    What was up with the slomo in the pts, though? Totally out of place.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Yeah. Very 80s TV....
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    Dalton was not ready when the call came, it was suppose to be Brosnan, but at the 11th hour the studio call him today say Remington Steele was being picked up. Brosnan says this broke his heart. Dalton was plunged in at the deep end. I think Dalton did a good job in TLD. LTK did not come soon enough and when it did it was a disappointment, then the studio ran in to trouble. Unfortunate for Dalton. But I am also biased I think Daniel Craig is a great actor, he offers something different to the role. But Dan's storylines have been better, and the fact it was a reboot Daniel could make it his own. I feel the same way about Brosnans era. Had Dalton or Brosnan done a reboot and got their way about how they would play Bond they would have been totally different.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    edited January 2015 Posts: 7,582

    1. Craig is a film actor/star, Dalton never has been (he is better on TV and in the theatre) and has never had the big screen charisma. If he did have he would be a bigger star.

    2. Craig made the ladies swoon when he removed his shirt, Dalton didn't.

    3. Craig came in when the series needed a massive artistic overhaul, Dalton came in when they were still treading water and happy to employ John Glen.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    NicNac wrote: »
    1. Craig is a film actor/star, Dalton never has been (he is better on TV and in the theatre) and has never had the big screen charisma. If he did have he would be a bigger star.
    Back in '87 my first thought while watching Dalton was "Who is this guy? He's not a star... "
    Like most of the non-literary Bond fans, I wanted someone who leapt off the screen, like Connery.
    Only after reading the novels did I come to be thrilled with his Bond. I *LIKE* that he doesn't project that charisma in his Bond. Similarly, Dan doesn't either. That's one thing I love about both of their Bonds.
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,189
    I must admit I think Dalton does have a bit of a "television" qualify to him. It's just something about how he looks. I never noticed it until a couple of years ago when I saw him in action alongside Connery, Moore etc. Of all the actors Dalton is the one who looks like he should be starring in a drama on itv.

    I don't think its a coincidence that most of Dalton's filmography consists of made-for television shows and films.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Bit harsh, hey @BAIN123 - drama on ITV! ITV is hogwash.

    Although, Dalton did appear in the BBC's Jane Eyre in the early 80's. He was superb in that.
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,189
    ha, ITV can do some good things sometimes :)
  • Posts: 15,106
    Getafix wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    No he wouldn't. It's fairly well known that those two weren't the best of friends.

    I was joking...

    It may have also played a role actually. Craig gets/got along very well with his Bond directors. Dalton, not at all. One of the worst director/actor couples in fact.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713
    Funny how we say Connery, Moore, Brosnan and Craig are movie stars, yet none of their non-Bond films have been huge box office hits to the level of their Bond outings. Even funnier, the biggest box office hit by a Bond actor in a non Bond film is Toy Story 3... With Dalton :)
  • Posts: 15,106
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I must admit I think Dalton does have a bit of a "television" qualify to him. It's just something about how he looks. I never noticed it until a couple of years ago when I saw him in action alongside Connery, Moore etc. Of all the actors Dalton is the one who looks like he should be starring in a drama on itv.

    I don't think its a coincidence that most of Dalton's filmography consists of made-for television shows and films.

    To be honest I always thought Brosnan had a tv star look, far more than any other Bond actor. And a b movie star look. But somehow it worked, in GE particularly.
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Ludovico wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »

    To be honest I always thought Brosnan had a tv star look, far more than any other Bond actor. And a b movie star look. But somehow it worked, in GE particularly.

    A B-Movie star quality most definitely. But I think he works on the big screen in a way that Dalton doesn't quite manage.

    I'd put Broz in the same sort of category as 80s Kurt Russell. A fairly popular star but also in a lot of forgettable B-movie nonsense.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I must admit I think Dalton does have a bit of a "television" qualify to him. It's just something about how he looks. I never noticed it until a couple of years ago when I saw him in action alongside Connery, Moore etc. Of all the actors Dalton is the one who looks like he should be starring in a drama on itv.

    I don't think its a coincidence that most of Dalton's filmography consists of made-for television shows and films.

    To be honest I always thought Brosnan had a tv star look, far more than any other Bond actor. And a b movie star look. But somehow it worked, in GE particularly.

    Again I agree with you. However, I saw nearly all of Brosnan's B movies (and I mean some of the awful ones like Livewire, Murder 101, Entangled and Nomads) so he couldn't ever truly escape that for me. I didn't feel it in GE but later on I did. Roger Moore had a tv career too, but for me it was more old school romantic because it was before my time for the most part.

    Dalton did not have a tv quality to me. He had a Shakespearean quality to him that seemed a bit aloof for Bond. Almost like he was playing it too dramatically at times, like a theatre production.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713
    I agree about Brosnan's tv star look in GE, but by TWINE he looked glorious on screen. As he got older the more he improved, IMO.
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Dalton did like to be quite dramatic in terms of his performances.

    "DELLAAA!"
    "TAKE ME TO ME TO HIM"
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Dalton did like to be quite dramatic in terms of his performances.

    "DELLAAA!"
    "TAKE ME TO ME TO HIM"

    Almost as bad as "DAAANAAAAA" from Arnie in True Lies.
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