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Which bit undermines an otherwise good film...

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  • LegateDamarLegateDamar
    Posts: 381
    One issue that I have with Skyfall (which I loved) is the treatment of Severine. Bond tells her that he can protect her, and then when she dies and the shot glass fall off her head, Bond says "waste of good scotch," as though she wasn't a real person. Some expression of anger would have been appropriate for that scene, like with Agent Fields in QOS.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    Mendes has said it's meant to be a joke to cover up how Bond is truly feeling but I agree with you @LegateDamar.
  • Matt007Matt007
    Posts: 1,314
    Remove 30 secs to improve Moonraker...

    1. Shot of Chang in the piano
    2. Gondola speeding across st marks sq and double take pidgeon
    3. BA poster gag
    4. Telescope gag
    5. Jaws flapping his wings and circus trampoline - just have him reappear.
    6. Jaws running in slo mo to his girlfriend
    7. "Well here's to us"
    8. Magnificent 7 theme
  • Perilagu_KhanPerilagu_Khan
    Posts: 2,483
    Coldfinger wrote:
    DCisared wrote:
    The whole fight scene at the floating casino in skyfall. Way to slapstick and not brutal enough.

    What? That entire scene was fantastic!!!
    DoubleOhhSeven wrote:
    ThighsOfXenia wrote:
    DCisared wrote:
    The whole fight scene at the floating casino in skyfall. Way to slapstick and not brutal enough.

    One of my favorite fights in the whole series. People forget a Bond film is supposed to have some occasional lightness of touch.

    Well said. As much as I love a "serious" Bond it was so refreshing to see Craig's Bond have a little old school Roger Moore fun.

    Agreed, I loved the look Craig gave when he saw that big Komodo Dragon come out in to the pit. LOL

    I loved the entire scene on the floating casino. First of all the scenery was amazing. The give and take between Eve and Bond was great. The conversation between Bond and Severine was wonderful. I thought the fight was short but sweet.

    This section was to me the high point of one of the greatest Bond films ever made.

  • Perilagu_KhanPerilagu_Khan
    Posts: 2,483
    Coldfinger wrote:
    Birdleson wrote:
    Didn't care for the CGI dragons at all. If you are going o do a homage to a classic Bond scene that used real reptiles, use real reptiles.

    Those were CGI ? Looked real to me. :-/

    If that was CGI, then I raise my martini to CGI.

  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited February 2014 Posts: 13,355
    I agree with you @Perilagu_Khan. It was a very good section of a very good film and I'm relieved to learn it isn't just me who thought this.
  • Perilagu_KhanPerilagu_Khan
    edited February 2014 Posts: 2,483
    Ludovico wrote:
    Birdleson wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    Birdleson wrote:
    That doesn't make it anymore palatable.

    We can complain about the scene itself, but the CGIs were inevitable. I strongly dislike CGIs and think they are overused, but sometimes they are sadly inevitable.


    I don't think it is inevitable. I think EON can learn from it's mistakes. Look at the backlash they received for using the CGI in DIE ANOTHER DAY, which resulted in a very raw and human CASINO ROYALE. Don't settle for compromise with things like the dragons. That's a slippery slope.

    I should precise: if you wanted Komodo dragons, or indeed aggressive wild animals, CGIs were inevitable, at least to a good deal of the scene. The scene did not bother me, as I don't think they were that bad and they were not heavily featured: the dragons reacted as I thought they would in such circumstances. Of course, whether or not there should be Komodo dragons, or sharks, or squids in a Bond movie is an entirely different debate. If they do want them, there is going to be some CGIs. And this is why I don't think there should be yet a fight against a squid in a Bond movie.

    Fauna, particularly birds, fish, insects and arachnids, is an incredibly prominent trope in Fleming, and the films would be far less colorful and Bondian without it. If CGI must occasionally be used in order to bring fauna into the picture, so be it.
  • Perilagu_KhanPerilagu_Khan
    Posts: 2,483
    LegateDamar wrote:
    One issue that I have with Skyfall (which I loved) is the treatment of Severine. Bond tells her that he can protect her, and then when she dies and the shot glass fall off her head, Bond says "waste of good scotch," as though she wasn't a real person. Some expression of anger would have been appropriate for that scene, like with Agent Fields in QOS.

    But the way he says it, the expression on his face, shows that he is extremely disturbed by what he has seen.

  • Perilagu_KhanPerilagu_Khan
    Posts: 2,483
    Samuel001 wrote:
    I agree with you @Perilagu_Khan. It was a very good section of a very good film and I'm relieved to learn it isn't just my who thought this.

    And the greatest segment of this section is Bond and Severine's conversation at the bar. I maintain it is the greatest single moment for any Bond girl, ever.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    edited February 2014 Posts: 12,837
    RC7 wrote:
    I have more of a problem with the gadget-laden DB5 than I do with the Komodo dragons. The DB5 makes no narrative sense and is merely there as a crowd-pleaser. It's not enough to undermine the film as a whole, but it certainly undermines the logic of it.

    My problem with the DB5 in SF is that they'd bought it back so many times. If they hadn't used it since TB I would've been thrilled to see it again but as it stands I didn't really care. I was actually a bit sick of it. Also would've helped if they hadn't shown it off in the trailer, so it was a surprise.

    For Bond 24, I'm hoping for a new Bond car. I don't care if it has gadgets or not, I just want something new. The new Lotus would be brilliant

    2014-lotus-esprit-photo-367525-s-520x318.jpg

    Lotus%2BEvora%2B007%2Bski.png
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    Samuel001 wrote:
    I agree with you @Perilagu_Khan. It was a very good section of a very good film and I'm relieved to learn it isn't just my who thought this.

    And the greatest segment of this section is Bond and Severine's conversation at the bar. I maintain it is the greatest single moment for any Bond girl, ever.

    The bit at the bar was brilliant. It was the fight scene I didn't like and that was mainly because it came straight after the bit at the bar. One minute we're hearing about Severine's tragic past, the next Bond is cracking two one liners in a row and stepping on CGI dragons. Just felt really out of place to me.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited February 2014 Posts: 13,355
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    Samuel001 wrote:
    I agree with you @Perilagu_Khan. It was a very good section of a very good film and I'm relieved to learn it isn't just my who thought this.

    And the greatest segment of this section is Bond and Severine's conversation at the bar. I maintain it is the greatest single moment for any Bond girl, ever.

    Very much like some of the women's troubles in Fleming's books Bond would listen to. I hope this type of character is more the focus on the next film instead of the villain. This can be built upon.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Birdleson wrote:
    LegateDamar wrote:
    One issue that I have with Skyfall (which I loved) is the treatment of Severine. Bond tells her that he can protect her, and then when she dies and the shot glass fall off her head, Bond says "waste of good scotch," as though she wasn't a real person. Some expression of anger would have been appropriate for that scene, like with Agent Fields in QOS.

    Exactly. Where is that intense Bond hardening of the features (Jill Masterson).

    It's all part of the mind games with Silva. I don't understand why people take the 'waste of good scotch' line so literally when it so clearly isn't meant that way.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    I thought it was quite a cool line that masked how Bond was really feeling. Didn't mind it at all and I'm not sure why people get worked up over it.

    What did bother me about Severine's death though is that right after she's been killed, Bond springs into action and kills all the guards. Why didn't he do that 20 seconds earlier?
  • DCisaredDCisared Liverpool
    Posts: 1,329
    Let's get this straight it's the fight scene that I don't think works not the whole casino part of the film. The moment Bond raises his glass to the goons just after severine tells him he's going to be killed is my favourite 'bondian' moment of the entire film! Also skyfall is definitely in my top 3 bond films. But
    1. The way bond holds his fist.
    2. The way bond points at the komodo Dragon.
    3. The way bond gets picked up and thrown about by a short fat man .
    Are we really supposed to feel any sense of danger or jeopardy like we do when bond is fighting Patrice? I honestly don't think that Chinese bodyguard would have a chance against Craig's bond.
    4. "It's the circle of life". Too soon after "put it all on red" which works fine on its own.
    All those things don't work.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    I thought it was quite a cool line that masked how Bond was really feeling. Didn't mind it at all and I'm not sure why people get worked up over it.

    What did bother me about Severine's death though is that right after she's been killed, Bond springs into action and kills all the guards. Why didn't he do that 20 seconds earlier?

    He had a gun held to his head but not after Severine was killed.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,131
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    Birdleson wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    Birdleson wrote:
    That doesn't make it anymore palatable.

    We can complain about the scene itself, but the CGIs were inevitable. I strongly dislike CGIs and think they are overused, but sometimes they are sadly inevitable.


    I don't think it is inevitable. I think EON can learn from it's mistakes. Look at the backlash they received for using the CGI in DIE ANOTHER DAY, which resulted in a very raw and human CASINO ROYALE. Don't settle for compromise with things like the dragons. That's a slippery slope.

    I should precise: if you wanted Komodo dragons, or indeed aggressive wild animals, CGIs were inevitable, at least to a good deal of the scene. The scene did not bother me, as I don't think they were that bad and they were not heavily featured: the dragons reacted as I thought they would in such circumstances. Of course, whether or not there should be Komodo dragons, or sharks, or squids in a Bond movie is an entirely different debate. If they do want them, there is going to be some CGIs. And this is why I don't think there should be yet a fight against a squid in a Bond movie.

    Fauna, particularly birds, fish, insects and arachnids, is an incredibly prominent trope in Fleming, and the films would be far less colorful and Bondian without it. If CGI must occasionally be used in order to bring fauna into the picture, so be it.

    Exactly. Of course, they have to be used and done well. I thought the Komodo dragons were convincing and, as they were in a dimly lit environment and used parcimoniously, I did not notice the CGIs. And it's not like they could have brought real ones.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    edited February 2014 Posts: 15,131
    They didn't to me. Of course I'm no specialist.
  • JohnBarryFanJohnBarryFan
    Posts: 1,405
    StirredNotShaken wrote:
    "I love James so much" and a cheerful Felix at the end of LTK (I almost feel like the film should've ended with Bond sitting on the rock in the wreckage of the tanker, as much as I do love the ending with him and Pam in the pool) could probably have both been taken out. The film is still brilliant nonetheless.

    The cheerful Leiter was out of place for me too. For God's sake, he just lost his wife, who got raped in the process and lost his leg. I could understand Felix to be grateful to Bond for having avenged him, but broadly smiling, acting like Della never existed...that was too much for me. You cut that scene and LTK is better.
  • JohnBarryFanJohnBarryFan
    Posts: 1,405
    SMERSHed wrote:
    Bond's philandering in OHMSS took me out f that film as well. If sleeping with those women were required for the mission, then that's one thing but sleeping with them and marrying Tracy seems dirty, even for Bond.

    This is probably an obvious choice for a lot of people but if they'd managed to trim the underwater battle scene in TB by about five or ten minutes, it would greatly raise the film in my estimations.

    Tracy didn't seem to mind. When Bond said "An agent musn't be concern with anything but himself" it directly implies that he must do what should be done and Tracy, intelligent as she was, understood perfectly it involves "pumping information" out of women when necessary. Anyway, Bond said it best himself:

    "What I do I do for King and country".

    'nuff said
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,131
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    LegateDamar wrote:
    One issue that I have with Skyfall (which I loved) is the treatment of Severine. Bond tells her that he can protect her, and then when she dies and the shot glass fall off her head, Bond says "waste of good scotch," as though she wasn't a real person. Some expression of anger would have been appropriate for that scene, like with Agent Fields in QOS.

    But the way he says it, the expression on his face, shows that he is extremely disturbed by what he has seen.

    That's how I understood it too. He couldn't afford to lose his cool in front of Silva, that would have made him vulnerable and kept the henchmen on their guard.
  • JohnBarryFanJohnBarryFan
    Posts: 1,405
    Samuel001 wrote:
    I agree with you @Perilagu_Khan. It was a very good section of a very good film and I'm relieved to learn it isn't just me who thought this.

    I think the floating casino fight awesome too. I watched Skyfall 3 times after I learned that the reptile was a CGI product, and could find nothing wrong with it.
  • LegateDamarLegateDamar
    Posts: 381
    I'll have to watch that scene again and look at his expression.
  • LegateDamarLegateDamar
    Posts: 381
    JohnBarryFan wrote:
    Samuel001 wrote:
    I agree with you @Perilagu_Khan. It was a very good section of a very good film and I'm relieved to learn it isn't just me who thought this.

    I think the floating casino fight awesome too. I watched Skyfall 3 times after I learned that the reptile was a CGI product, and could find nothing wrong with it.

    It looked pretty real to me--kind of a nod to the crocks in LALD.

  • LegateDamarLegateDamar
    Posts: 381
    Just watched Thunderball and I enjoyed it, but I felt that about 20 minutes could have been cut--too many underwater scenes with people just swimming.
  • JohnBarryFanJohnBarryFan
    edited February 2014 Posts: 1,405
    LegateDamar wrote:
    Just watched Thunderball and I enjoyed it, but I felt that about 20 minutes could have been cut--too many underwater scenes with people just swimming.

    I personnally never enjoyed underwater scenes, things are happening too slowly and predictably. The only exception being "Le Grand Bleu" movie by Luc Besson. Another thing that is a strike call against Thunderball is the horrible editing and obvious screen showing rocks passing by at lightning speed during the boat fight scene at the end of the movie. That horrible scene is the forefather of Marc Forster's inspiration for QOS.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,131
    Birdleson wrote:
    Real crocks.

    Except I am not sure it would be shot these days. Too dangerous.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    JohnBarryFan wrote:
    Another thing that is a strike call against Thunderball is the horrible editing and obvious screen showing rocks passing by at lightning speed during the boat fight scene at the end of the movie. That horrible scene is the forefather of Marc Forster's inspiration for QOS.
    That's an amusing analogy.
  • Matt_HelmMatt_Helm
    Posts: 908
    Matt007 wrote:
    Remove 30 secs to improve Moonraker...

    1. Shot of Chang in the piano
    2. Gondola speeding across st marks sq and double take pidgeon
    3. BA poster gag
    4. Telescope gag
    5. Jaws flapping his wings and circus trampoline - just have him reappear.
    6. Jaws running in slo mo to his girlfriend
    7. "Well here's to us"
    8. Magnificent 7 theme

    Now I get it and I (of course) agree.
    Thank you
  • Perilagu_KhanPerilagu_Khan
    Posts: 2,483
    Ludovico wrote:
    They didn't to me. Of course I'm no specialist.

    I thought you had a doctorate in komodo aesthetics from the University of Djakarta.

  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,131
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    They didn't to me. Of course I'm no specialist.

    I thought you had a doctorate in komodo aesthetics from the University of Djakarta.

    Well, I am a gifted amateur when it comes to Komodo dragons. But know very little about CGIs. That said, believe it or not, I was fascinated by Komodo dragons as a child.
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