Is Thunderball Overrated?

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  • edited October 2014 Posts: 11,425
    I see Thunderball as being the peak of cinematic Bond. Connery is still at his best. It's the perfect mix of Terence Young's Fleming-esque style (we get a dangerous Bond again) and Goldfinger's cinematic grandeur, only even grander.

    It's a beautiful film with beautiful women beautiful cinematography and beautiful locations. It's colorful, thrilling, and has perhaps the best score of the entire series.

    Now, I'm never one to get into these sorts of arguments on here as no one ever convinces anyone of anything. Instead, I'm just leaving my two cents. I find Thunderball to be cinematic Bond, with mixes of Fleming, at its best.

    edit: While I enjoy You Only Live Twice very much Connery's performance is visibly weaker than the 4 outstanding turns before it. I think YOLT is, overall, a very good movie but I maintain that the series peaks with TB in the "Golden Age."

    That's all I'm saying. I don't rank YOLT as one of the best, just an enjoyable formula-defining romp. I've never really bought all the stuff about Connery dialling it in for YOLT though. Certainly he's not as panther-like and sharp as in the earlier films, but it's still a strong performance, IMO.

    I see the 'peaks' in the series, in descending order, as probably being FRWL and GF, OHMSS, TSWLM, TLD and CR.

    There is a theme in several of those, which is a strong and convincing relationship between Bond and the leading lady. It's really become much clearer to me recently that believeable chemistry between Bond and his leading ladies is actually an important igredient of a successful Bond film. The films where the women are just there as eye candy, as was the case during much of the Moore and Brosnan eras, tend to just feel a bit flat.

  • @Getafix Oh certainly. I don't think Connery is BAD in YOLT. He's just visibly not as strong as he was in the previous 4 and the juxtaposition makes the performance look weaker than it actually is. Becaus he was so brilliant in those first 4. That sparkle in his eye dimmed a bit in YOLT.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    I just watched TB and I have to say being in the right mood is all-important. I didn't find it too thrilling this time around.
  • Posts: 12,473
    chrisisall wrote: »
    I just watched TB and I have to say being in the right mood is all-important. I didn't find it too thrilling this time around.

    I agree; being in the mood makes or breaks TB for me. Same with QoS and a couple others probably to be honest.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    @Thunderfinger can you look at my 2nd to last post, please? :) I wrote that most fans disagree on where Bond first peaked, TB or GF. You would say GF, then drop in quality, and 2nd peak for OHMSS?

    So as I can see, TB is not as polaring for you as to put it in your bottom ranked movies, but it is polarising for you next to GF and DN/FRWL as the first drop in quality in the franchise. So it seems either TB is a peak or a drop in quality.

    That sounds about right.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited October 2014 Posts: 17,801
    Last time I found the 'jagged' editing & sped-up shots to be most distracting. It left me appreciating the more mellow style of QOS... :))
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,216
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Last time I found the 'jagged' editing & sped-up shots to be most distracting. It left me appreciating the more mellow style of QOS... :))

    These shots are distracting and bring down a strong film a few notches; with different music they could look like clips from Benny Hill. Come to think of it two of the elements that detract involve speed, these shots being too fast and the underwater battle too slow.

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    One thing that has just struck me about the ludicrous sped up shots of the Disco Volante in the final fight is that there's and oft repeated quote from Terence Young that he found the underwater stuff slow so he tried speeding the film up but it just looked stupid.

    Yet he signed off on the awful speeding up of the Disco footage? Make your mind up Terence. Or was it that by this stage he was tired of the whole tedious TB leviathan and just thought 'sod it - anything so I can be done with this and get out of here.'
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2014 Posts: 15,718
    Come to think of it, do any Bond movie have ending-climax with no no big issues?

    As someone else pointed out...

    DN: Dr No gets dispatch easily, then it's only people running around and a few explosions.
    FRWL: Yes, the iconic Grant fight, but there's still like 15 minutes more of film... Only a succesion of chase scenes, and of course it ends with the infamous 'waving at the camera'.
    GF: As pointed out many times, having en entire military platoon division faking falling unconscious is bordeline ludicrous. Ok, Oddjob fight and the 007 on the counter is good. But Bond meeting the US president was a bit OTT, and of course the awful special effect for Goldfinger getting sucked out of the plane
    TB: As @talos7 just pointed out, the underwater battle is filmed too slow, the fight on the boat is filmed too fast
    YOLT: Ok, good epic battle but it kinds of drag on aswell. Blofeld gets wasy a bit to easily. And making a volcano erupt by the press of a button...
    OHMSS: No comment on this one, it seems to be a popular one here and I quite like this one and can't find any serious issues. Apart maybe the Bond theme playing at the end credits doesn't really fit with the mood.
    DAF: Less said is the best. Awful special effects for the laser exploding stuff, the oil rig sequence is just plain awful, and Blofeld is dispatched in the most anti-climatix fashion.
    LALD: Not to bad, but ofcourse the infamous Kananga explodes like a balloon - quite litteraly!
    TMWTGG: End battle with Nic Nac, 'nough said (and I am a big TMWTGG fan).
    TSWLM: Good one, so that's 2.
    MR: Yeah, gun-laser battle in outer space, Jaws speaks...
    FYEO: Tatcher imitation speaks for itself :P
    AVTAK: Good battle scene on top of the Golden Gate Bridge, but the last scene with a 57 years old Moore and Stacey in the shower, and the 'That's not the soap... Ouuuooooohhhhhhh'
    TLD: 3rd good one, imo.
    LTK: Brutal, Bond was completly burnt out after Sanchez dies. But that winking fish at the end...
    GE: Proper epic battle with 006. But it ends with that awkward moment of Bond and Natalya kissing with an entire platoon watching, and that end credit song...
    TND: As said before countless times, Bond goes full-rambo in this, firing 2 guns at once,
    TWINE: Many people find faults in the submarine sequence, plus the last scene with the 'I thought christmas comes only once a year' is not very popular on this community.
    DAD: Less said is better.
    CR: 4th one, but some people have problem with the sinking house sequence.. But the 'Bond, James Bond' makes up for it big time, IMO.
    QOS: I'll put this as the 5th one, if many people disagree I'll remove it.
    SF: Ok, as pointed out before it is somewhat OTT that Malory would let Bond take the head of the MI6 to a remote location in the middle of nowhere, with no backup and making sure the villain and henchmen will come to that location too...

    So yes, it seems that there are only 4 or 5 Bond end-climax that seem to not have any 'sore-thumb' in them. I could be wrong though, and if I am, please correct my list.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    One thing that has just struck me about the ludicrous sped up shots of the Disco Volante in the final fight is that there's and oft repeated quote from Terence Young that he found the underwater stuff slow so he tried speeding the film up but it just looked stupid.

    Yet he signed off on the awful speeding up of the Disco footage? Make your mind up Terence. Or was it that by this stage he was tired of the whole tedious TB leviathan and just thought 'sod it - anything so I can be done with this and get out of here.'

    One has to remember that Peter Hunt was the one responsible for the crazy editing in the Thunderball finale and there was evidence of this before in the fight with Colonel Boitier in the PTS, although this was much more effective there by removing some frames of the film to add a fission to the fight.
  • edited October 2014 Posts: 7,507
    Good Points @DaltonCraig. Ending climaxes in Bond are very hard to get completely right. They have to be epic in scope, yet not to OTT and drawn out. They have to leave a huge mark making sure the film ends on a high note but at the same time not feel heavy and dragging. It's a difficult balance to get right.

    I'd like to speak up for the FRWL ending though. For me it's perfect and one of the best in the series. "The succesion of chase scenes" are all brilliantly done, allways keeping the suspense and drama going, never dragging. The way Bond cooly handles the armada of boats chasing him is a classic Bond moment. And the last encounter with Klebb is even better! So easy and uncomplicated, yet more intense than all later shootouts combined. I think it might be the most underrated action scene in the franchise's history. And the ending with Venice and the end title song just oozes 60s class and elegance. Ah, how I love that film! 8-> :P


    I also think the ending of QoS is one of the better ones btw.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    One thing that has just struck me about the ludicrous sped up shots of the Disco Volante in the final fight is that there's and oft repeated quote from Terence Young that he found the underwater stuff slow so he tried speeding the film up but it just looked stupid.

    Yet he signed off on the awful speeding up of the Disco footage? Make your mind up Terence. Or was it that by this stage he was tired of the whole tedious TB leviathan and just thought 'sod it - anything so I can be done with this and get out of here.'

    One has to remember that Peter Hunt was the one responsible for the crazy editing in the Thunderball finale and there was evidence of this before in the fight with Colonel Boitier in the PTS, although this was much more effective there by removing some frames of the film to add a fission to the fight.

    The editor just does (or should do) what he is told.

    The director ultimately has to carry the can. Blaming something on the editor means you haven't done your properly because you should be supervising things so he delivers your vision for the film.

    Young either signed off that he was happy with the final Disco footage or left Hunt to do what he wanted - either the way the poor final result is due to negligence on the part of the director.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    LTK: Brutal, Bond was completly burnt out after Sanchez dies. But that winking fish at the end...
    I'll say it again, that's a ceramic fish sculpture that winks every few minutes due to water flow, I don't see the importance here... :P
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Young went to work on a United Nations, as they were in the process of post production. I think Young delivered a film of three plus hours, and Hunt had to trim it down, somewhat. (And you think the TB we got is slow and pedestrian!)

    It'll be fascinating to know who signed off on the speed up climax....

    Still, it looked daft, whomever was in charge. Perhaps it was McClory.....
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    royale65 wrote: »
    Still, it looked daft, whomever was in charge.
    My Son saw me on this thread last night & asked about the scene so I pulled it up on Youtube for him and at first he said it looked okay, but then the real fast stuff started & he chuckled and said it looked like an old Charlie Chaplin film.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited October 2014 Posts: 18,281
    royale65 wrote: »
    Young went to work on a United Nations, as they were in the process of post production. I think Young delivered a film of three plus hours, and Hunt had to trim it down, somewhat. (And you think the TB we got is slow and pedestrian!)

    It'll be fascinating to know who signed off on the speed up climax....

    Still, it looked daft, whomever was in charge. Perhaps it was McClory.....

    Well from what I recall it was Peter Hunt who signed off on the sped-up finale, something about the interior shots (filmed by Terence Young in a studio) not matching with the exterior shots of the Disco Volante. This is explained at the end of the Thunderball chapter of Steven Jay Rubin's The James Bond Films (1981).
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Thank you old boy. What would we have done without you @Dragonpol? ;-)
    My Son saw me on this thread last night & asked about the scene so I pulled it up on Youtube for him and at first he said it looked okay, but then the real fast stuff started & he chuckled and said it looked like an old Charlie Chaplin film.

    I take it as the effects of the day. I'm sure they did the best that they could.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited October 2014 Posts: 17,801
    royale65 wrote: »
    I'm sure they did the best that they could.
    Well, their best should have been to re-shoot the the window rear projections to make it look something under 400 MPH...
    :))
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    You mean you can't get warp speed on water? ;-)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    royale65 wrote: »
    You mean you can't get warp speed on water? ;-)
    Not without igniting the atmosphere... :D
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Well Largo did say the Disco Volante was quick...
  • Posts: 7,653
    chrisisall wrote: »
    royale65 wrote: »
    You mean you can't get warp speed on water? ;-)
    Not without igniting the atmosphere... :D

    >:) You made my day, even if I have to clean coffee of my computerscreen.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited October 2014 Posts: 18,281
    royale65 wrote: »
    Thank you old boy. What would we have done without you @Dragonpol? ;-)
    My Son saw me on this thread last night & asked about the scene so I pulled it up on Youtube for him and at first he said it looked okay, but then the real fast stuff started & he chuckled and said it looked like an old Charlie Chaplin film.

    I take it as the effects of the day. I'm sure they did the best that they could.

    Thank you, @royale65. I've been meaning to write something on the speeded-up ending of Thunderball and I may well make good on this as I think that a lot of people are in the dark on this bizarre decision on the part of editor Peter Hunt. I really must consult the Oracle - Steven Jay Rubin!
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    I look forward to reading it dear Draggers
  • I can forgive the sped up Disco bit. It's not ideal but the fight scene is really good. I think a lot of people overlook just how great of a fight scene it is.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I really must consult the Oracle - Steven Jay Rubin!

    I found something:
    http://www.shatterhand007.com/PeterHuntArticle/PeterHuntArticle.html
    Hunt basically made the best of a bad film-making situation.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    The fight is indeed very cool. Plus the music is not too shabby
  • royale65 wrote: »
    The fight is indeed very cool. Plus the music is not too shabby

    Totally awesome music. As a kid watching with my dad I always used to just think Largo's boat was insanely fast which made me think it was all even cooler.

    I guess part of that childlike believability still sticks with me today. It's bad editing but I can deal with it.

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I really must consult the Oracle - Steven Jay Rubin!

    I found something:
    http://www.shatterhand007.com/PeterHuntArticle/PeterHuntArticle.html
    Hunt basically made the best of a bad film-making situation.

    Thanks for finding that very interesting article, @chrisisall! Here's the quote on the sped-up Disco Volante exterior footage:

    "In the final fight between Bond and Largo on board the Disco Volante, Hunt sped up the shots of the ocean outside the windows of Largo's yacht. He had to do this because the exterior footage was shot by helicopter and didn't match the speed of the interior action. What we're left with is Bond and Largo fighting in quick rapid shots while the Disco is speeding through the Caribbean at tremendous speed. Hunt commented on this scene later in Steven Jay Rubin's book The James Bond Films: "There are times when you want to juxtapose certain bits of film and you can't. It's not possible. And that's how the gaps occur. It's better to have the speed of the film than to worry about continuity." This scene may have suffered 32 years ago, but by today's standards of MTV videos, this scene is more exciting than many contemporary action thrillers."
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    The last time I watched TB, I was in the right mood and completely loved it, but I haven't always been the biggest fan of the finale just for that reason: the speed at which the yacht is traveling really throws me off while Bond and Largo have their fight.
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