Is Skyfall losing its gloss and appeal ?

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  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited March 2014 Posts: 12,480
    Hahahahhahahah! Oh that gave me a good laugh; thanks. =))
    If not first in name calling, then certainly tops for insulting, vulgar, and being unnecessarily provocative at times, along with exceedingly negative, Mr. Helm.

    Aside from that, I think writing in a second language is difficult so I do appreciate your efforts to write in English, Matt_Helm.

    GetaFix, the mods and I believe the far majority of us, really do not mind totally dissenting opinion if it is kept civil.
  • Posts: 908
    Hahahahhahahah! Oh that gave me a good laugh; thanks. =))
    If not first in name calling, then certainly tops for insulting, vulgar, and being unnecessarily provocative at times, along with exceedingly negative...

    It's probably this kind of over bubbling fantasy that leads you to think that Craigs behavior is aching to Connerys take on Bond. But just as with this fantasy of yours you won't find any proof of me calling someone names (let alone being vulgar) anywhere.
    P.S.: what you (and others here) call exceedingly negative, I (and others elsewhere ) call stringent and logical analyzing.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    P.S.: what you (and others here) call exceedingly negative, I (and others elsewhere ) call stringent and logical analyzing.

    Film is an art. The more you analyse, the less joy you'll find at the heart.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    RC7 wrote:
    Film is an art. The more you analyse, the less joy you'll find at the heart.

    I don't know... the more I analyse Blade Runner, the better I like it. Just sayin.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    chrisisall wrote:
    RC7 wrote:
    Film is an art. The more you analyse, the less joy you'll find at the heart.

    I don't know... the more I analyse Blade Runner, the better I like it. Just sayin.

    If only all films were as masterful as Bladerunner.
  • Posts: 6,396
    I'm going to whisper this.......I've never gotten Blade Runner. It's one of those films I feel I should like, but don't.

    *Runs away*
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    I'm going to whisper this.......I've never gotten Blade Runner. It's one of those films I feel I should like, but don't.

    *Runs away*

    You can enjoy it aesthetically, surely?
  • Posts: 6,396
    RC7 wrote:
    I'm going to whisper this.......I've never gotten Blade Runner. It's one of those films I feel I should like, but don't.

    *Runs away*

    You can enjoy it aesthetically, surely?

    It looks absolutely gorgeous (as all of Scott's films do), particularly that opening shot. But that's where my enjoyment of it ends.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited March 2014 Posts: 16,351
    I'm going to whisper this.......I've never gotten Blade Runner. It's one of those films I feel I should like, but don't.

    *Runs away*

    Don't feel bad. I watched 2001 A Space Odyssey last night and I didn't get it. :O
  • Posts: 11,425
    2001 is a bit of a bore fest IMO.

    The original Solaris and Tarkovsky's other sci-fi epic, Stalker, are far superior.

    Stalker is one of my top ten movies.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Getafix wrote:
    2001 is a bit of a bore fest IMO.
    I hope Dimi doesn't read this...
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    2001 is a bit of a bore fest IMO.
    I hope Dimi doesn't read this...

    I think Kubrick was brilliant and can appreciate 2001 as a visual feast, but it's so tedious. Who actually cares?

    Prefer Kubrick's other work, although not all of it.
  • Posts: 7,653
    SaintMark wrote:
    I love how so many people complain about Craig's Bond being way too emotional because he lets Vesper sink her teeth into him and he gets all worked up over her for two entire films, but now he isn't emotional enough. That's pretty hilarious, I must say. Isn't hypocrisy fun?

    For me the problem was that while CR was mostly good his next two movies have not come close in quality when we are talking scriptwise, and QoB has an actual excuse.

    Ha!

    "If all that was left of you was your little finger and your smile, you'd still be more of a man than any man I've ever met." --sob, sob, slobber, slobber--

    "That's because you know what I can do with my little finger." --Ho! Thigh-slap!--

    "I've got not armor left. You've stripped it from me." --enter the entire London Philharmonic string section--

    "If you don't get out of this profession, you'll have no soul left. I'm getting out while I've still got a soul. And you can have whatever's left of me. Whatever, I've got left, you can have." --the strings from the Vienna Philharmonic join in--

    You got me there, those are examples of bloody awefull scripting and the writers of those clunkers do deserve a kick in the nutsack.
  • The line serves multiple purposes, if one only looks. Just because Mendes, or Dan, or Barbara and Michael state something is one way doesn't mean that is the final say on the matter. When creators make a piece of art and send it out to be judged by the masses it takes on meanings separate from what they may have intended, and a larger discussion occurs.

    "Waste of good scotch" : let's analyze that for days !

    "An exploding pen" : nah, this is just a quip, you're reading too much in it, there's nothing to discuss !

    Isn't hypocrisy fun ? :)
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 5,745
    I know you all hate hypothetical timelines, but based on a few facts, I'll make a few assumptions concerning Bond's attitude in Skyfall.

    Fact 1: In Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace, Daniel's Bond is "new".
    Fact 2: In Skyfall, Daniel's Bond is "old".

    Assumption 1: Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace *take place* before Dr. No through Die Another Day, and Skyfall *takes place* after Brosnan's swansong.
    Assumption 2: Assumption 1 is based off of the idea that all 23 films include the same, one man.
    Assumption 3: The same 'one man' in Assumption 2 exists in his own universe that maintains the construct of aging without the construct of dates. The story of Dr. No isn't set in 1962 and the story of Skyfall isn't set in 2012. They are free-floating stores in a linear progression with no strict timecode or dates.
    Assumption 4: Based on Assumption 3, all 23 films take place over a period of approximately 10 of our-universe's years.
    Example A4: Bond is ~30 in Dr. No and ~40 in Skyfall.

    Now, based on the previously outlined Facts and Assumptions:

    1. Skyfall Bond has gone through a minimum of 23 (some films & pts' including side missions/assignments) stories of confirmed missions/assignments, and we can assume dozens more off screen.
    2. In all of his years of service, all of his world-saving, all of his globe-trotting, all of his training, all the past decade+ of his life he has given more than his due in work for MI6. After all of this, his boss puts him literally in the cross-hairs and lets a rookie take a one-in-a-million shot without knowing the situation or the odds instead of letting him do his job with a near 100% success rate. She leaves him for dead, and ultimately the mission is failed.
    3. Bad luck for Bond, he isn't dead, and now has to live with the guilt of knowing he was part of the failure that puts hundreds of allied agents at risk, and the anger of not being able to control the situation. This changes him.
    4. He slips into a depressed state, and alters his mind to think in a new, efficiently cynical state of mind. He uses crude and crass humor to drop the emotional weight of a situation and convince himself he is indifferent in the face of stress and tragedy.
    5. He adapts this new attitude in his return to field duty as a weapon of distraction and a harness to keep himself focused, and uses the line "Waste of good scotch."


    But I agree about the hypocrisy of over analyzing the 'Scotch' line as I just have, and brushing off the 'exploding pen' line. I had this thought and shared it, but it doesn't necessarily reflect my personal opinions. I prefer not to think too long on piecing together the life of cinematic Bond, and instead prefer to just enjoy each story as a separate adventure in a vacuum of time with my favorite, one, James Bond.
  • @JWESTBROOK -- you're being too bloody reasonable here. Are you sure you're in the right thread?
  • Posts: 19,339
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    I know you all hate hypothetical timelines, but based on a few facts, I'll make a few assumptions concerning Bond's attitude in Skyfall.

    Fact 1: In Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace, Daniel's Bond is "new".
    Fact 2: In Skyfall, Daniel's Bond is "old".

    Assumption 1: Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace *take place* before Dr. No through Die Another Day, and Skyfall *takes place* after Brosnan's swansong.
    Assumption 2: Assumption 1 is based off of the idea that all 23 films include the same, one man.
    Assumption 3: The same 'one man' in Assumption 2 exists in his own universe that maintains the construct of aging without the construct of dates. The story of Dr. No isn't set in 1962 and the story of Skyfall isn't set in 2012. They are free-floating stores in a linear progression with no strict timecode or dates.
    Assumption 4: Based on Assumption 3, all 23 films take place over a period of approximately 10 of our-universe's years.
    Example A4: Bond is ~30 in Dr. No and ~40 in Skyfall.

    Now, based on the previously outlined Facts and Assumptions:

    1. Skyfall Bond has gone through a minimum of 23 (some films & pts' including side missions/assignments) stories of confirmed missions/assignments, and we can assume dozens more off screen.
    2. In all of his years of service, all of his world-saving, all of his globe-trotting, all of his training, all the past decade+ of his life he has given more than his due in work for MI6. After all of this, his boss puts him literally in the cross-hairs and lets a rookie take a one-in-a-million shot without knowing the situation or the odds instead of letting him do his job with a near 100% success rate. She leaves him for dead, and ultimately the mission is failed.
    3. Bad luck for Bond, he isn't dead, and now has to live with the guilt of knowing he was part of the failure that puts hundreds of allied agents at risk, and the anger of not being able to control the situation. This changes him.
    4. He slips into a depressed state, and alters his mind to think in a new, efficiently cynical state of mind. He uses crude and crass humor to drop the emotional weight of a situation and convince himself he is indifferent in the face of stress and tragedy.
    5. He adapts this new attitude in his return to field duty as a weapon of distraction and a harness to keep himself focused, and uses the line "Waste of good scotch."


    But I agree about the hypocrisy of over analyzing the 'Scotch' line as I just have, and brushing off the 'exploding pen' line. I had this thought and shared it, but it doesn't necessarily reflect my personal opinions. I prefer not to think too long on piecing together the life of cinematic Bond, and instead prefer to just enjoy each story as a separate adventure in a vacuum of time with my favorite, one, James Bond.

    Well said Sir and well thought out as well.
    Good logic and a very sensible post,cant fault it.

    =D>
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    @JWESTBROOK indeed, I like that line of thought, it makes all the films belong to eachother.
    Matt_Helm wrote:


    I didn't say she was hoping he would kill her, but he was hoping he would be able to kill Silva, of whom she had been very afraid for a very long time.
    MH: Sorry for getting you wrong.
    np.
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    She had seen Bond kill Patrice. It stands to reason she thought Bond would be able to stop Silva.
    MH: To me this is a case of "it does not follow". Just because he has thrown P out of the window she should conclude,that he will be able to win against Silva and his henchmen alone on the island? The point I was making was,that there is this woman explicitly telling him, that her boss is the meanest and vicious guy since Attila,but Bond is making no plans at all except hoping (that they won't find the radio).But as I already mentioned numerous times it just makes no sense to discuss the inherent logic of just about anything going on after Bond comes to Shanghai. Whatever might be going from there (in terms of plans and who is betraying whom)it just can't be explained reasonably.
    Well Bond has been known to walk into a trap on numerous times, or walk straight towards the 'villain' just to let him show himself as the villain. FRWL is based on that principle, the English will bite just because it's so obvious a trap. It's in their 'sportsmanship' mentality. In the films he does so as well, walking into Drax's office and Strombergs as well. Him beeing unarmed wasn't her choice obviously.

    Matt_Helm wrote:

    Having Bond on board would most definitely make her more nervous for the coming rendezvous with Silva.
    MH: I honestly can't remember to ever have commented on some nervousness of her on board of the ship.
    No, but you commented on her being just as scared as usual towards Silva. I would expect her to be more nervous after talking to Bond, as only the talking-to had been a risk.
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    It was part of the psychological wordgame he was playing with Silva.
    MH: This guy has been thoroughly humiliated and ridiculed by Silva in front of everyone and now he thinks he can play mind games and might look better by faking complete indifference? Again a case of non sequitur and certainly not the way Flemings "modern take on the white knight" would act.
    He does something similar when talking to Dr. No. And anyway, Bond wouldn't give up even if he had lost a step somewhere, as he does frequently in the books as well.
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    You don't really believe Bond had homo-erotic experiences before just because he says 'what makes you think this is my first time'?
    MH: Of course I don't. James Bond simply has no homosexual tendencies. Period!
    What I was saying is,that up to the "what makes you think this is my first time" line, the flirting scene is one of the very few original ones in Skyfall.
    All I meant to say was that, just like the scotch line, his reposte was part of the wordgame, the not-letting-be-leaned-on.
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    It doesn't help to start name-calling yourself.
    MH: Absolutely,that's why I have never done so myself (at least in written form)! Wish I could say the same about PK.
    Insulting is about the same. Anyway, enough of that matter, no point in crying over spilled milk.

  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    Posts: 4,521
    That this thread exist mabey should be warning for producers there should mabey consider to hire another writer to help John Logan.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Oh dear...watched SF last night and it is getting more and more full of holes ....
  • Posts: 2,341
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Oh dear...watched SF last night and it is getting more and more full of holes ....

    I always get a kick out of watching SF. I think I rewatch it the most out of the Craig films, though I still consider CR to be the best of the Craig films. It is a fun romp and I have to agree with @barry007, the film is full of plot holes but I still find it an entertaining and two hours that are not wasted.
  • Since SF is my second fave, I find it really hard to find these holes you are talking about @barryt007 or maybe I just don't want to see them. In my eyes, "Skyfall" is nothing but perfect Bond! ;)

    Now when I think out it the only thing that bugs me is how stupid Silva's plan is from time to time...
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    If we're all so concerned with the plot holes in SF, we should be glad David Lynch never directed a Bond film. ;-)
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,978
    Since SF is my second fave, I find it really hard to find these holes you are talking about @barryt007 or maybe I just don't want to see them. In my eyes, "Skyfall" is nothing but perfect Bond! ;)

    Now when I think out it the only thing that bugs me is how stupid Silva's plan is from time to time...

    I think it might be that you just don't want to see the plot holes, because there are plenty of them. ;)
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I don't watch movies for their plot holes. I watch movies to be entertained. I don't have to question something that doesn't make sense. It's a movie. It's going to have a plot hole no matter what. It's like trying to find a piece of swiss cheese without any holes.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    I'll take SF plot holes over the tick the box shenanigans that are crow barred into LTK any day of the week.

    I watched it at the weekend for the first time in a while. It's a shame really as it really could have been a top film, Dalton is brilliant but the desire to put the usual cliches into a plot that really doesn't need it pretty much scuppers it at times.

    Everything is fine up until that bar fight (cheesy U.S 80's action guff). Though really the one thing that really does it for LTK is the inclusion of Q.

    People can go on for infinity about Desmond's charm and that it was nice to see him but seriously it makes no sense and really ruins the gritty feel of the story. I cringed so much when he opened that suitcase, those gadgets are so lame. Alarm clock but that Polaroid camera that is a laser, really!!

    That movie camera gun is ridiculous as well, I would have much preferred Bond being able to be resourceful and have obtained the tools he needed himself instead of this ridiculously cheesy moment that was lifted straight of a Moore film. Q's Broom handle radio?

    So many people go on about the Aston in SF and it's unnecessary, well LTK's no better, also Lupe's ridiculous I'm so in love with James routine almost made me want to throw up.

    I'll take SF over that, at least it's tone for the most part is even, the plot holes are there but it's executed so much better and Mendes is a much better director than John Glen, also SF doesn't have some of the worst incidental music in Bond history in it, some of that 80's cheese in LTK is utter rubbish.

    Don't get me wrong it's still better than a good percentage of the series but it could have been so much better with a bit more even tone and less trying to please the audience with moments which were clearly not warranted.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited August 2014 Posts: 40,978
    I have an issue with a film that has too many plot holes, which ruins the story, which is the integral part of the film, which, in turn, leads me to be slightly worried when that same screenwriter is hired for another Bond film and is going to be coupled with the same director who allowed the plot holes in the first place. No film is perfect and without flaws, but if you're consistently stepping on a story and filling it with numerous plot holes, then I already have an issue with it before I look at everything else, such as acting, characters (and character development), action sequences/set pieces, technical work, choreography, editing, cinematography, etc. The story of a film - the message it's trying to tell, the point it's attempting to get across, etc. - is very key.

    I don't need my Bond films to be 100% realistic, because I watch them to escape, but I think Craig's films are much more realistic than past Bond adventures, and I want to feel that on screen. Plot holes take away from that.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Shardlake wrote: »
    I'll take SF plot holes over the tick the box shenanigans that are crow barred into LTK any day of the week.

    I watched it at the weekend for the first time in a while. It's a shame really as it really could have been a top film, Dalton is brilliant but the desire to put the usual cliches into a plot that really doesn't need it pretty much scuppers it at times.

    Everything is fine up until that bar fight (cheesy U.S 80's action guff). Though really the one thing that really does it for LTK is the inclusion of Q.

    People can go on for infinity about Desmond's charm and that it was nice to see him but seriously it makes no sense and really ruins the gritty feel of the story. I cringed so much when he opened that suitcase, those gadgets are so lame. Alarm clock but that Polaroid camera that is a laser, really!!

    That movie camera gun is ridiculous as well, I would have much preferred Bond being able to be resourceful and have obtained the tools he needed himself instead of this ridiculously cheesy moment that was lifted straight of a Moore film. Q's Broom handle radio?

    So many people go on about the Aston in SF and it's unnecessary, well LTK's no better, also Lupe's ridiculous I'm so in love with James routine almost made me want to throw up.

    I'll take SF over that, at least it's tone for the most part is even, the plot holes are there but it's executed so much better and Mendes is a much better director than John Glen, also SF doesn't have some of the worst incidental music in Bond history in it, some of that 80's cheese in LTK is utter rubbish.

    Don't get me wrong it's still better than a good percentage of the series but it could have been so much better with a bit more even tone and less trying to please the audience with moments which were clearly not warranted.

    Why didn't you post this in the "Last Bond movie you watched" thread, as this is just a review of Licence to Kill in a Skyfall thread.
  • The plot holes bug me as well, but it's not my main point of criticism. I like how the movie strays from the usual Bond story structure, but I think it's also the thing that will make it feel dated in the future.
  • edited August 2014 Posts: 12,837
    I was reading @Creasy47's live review thing the other day (so this is your fault Creasy you knobhead ;) ) and I realised that there's actually quite a lot I don't like in Skyfall. I thought it was my favourite Craig film but I think all the hype and the fact that it was new clouded my judgement a bit, I'm starting to think Casino Royale might be better. I'll have to rewatch them both at some point soon to decide. Might as well watch QoS as well while I'm at it, I don't really like it but it's a fairly short film and I do enjoy watching it (I enjoy all the Bond films in some way or another). You never know, maybe a miracle will happen and I'll end up loving it this time :P
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