Is Skyfall losing its gloss and appeal ?

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  • MansfieldMansfield Where the hell have you been?
    edited August 2015 Posts: 1,263
    trevanian wrote: »
    It's weird what you can read into things. The compromised girl at the end of QUANTUM was, I thought at the time, destined to become Moneypenny as a nod to Lois Maxwell's canadian ancestry -- actress did SO much with just a word of dialog and her expression, I was really blown away. Hardly seems like the same girl the times I've channelsurfed past CASTLE.
    I never made any connection there before. Perhaps it's for the better that I didn't because she would have made a fantastic Moneypenny. I would have been really disappointed with Harris' casting.

    For me she is the weakest one of the introduced characters. @Getafix mentioned how he feels they were all rushed, but I actually think Mallory was given measured attention throughout the film so that at the end when he is revealed as M, it leaves me feeling satisfied. Especially with the passing the torch moments we debated earlier in this thread at the courthouse and Bond's eventual approval (such as the gunfire cover for Mallory to arm himself and the wink). I can't imagine them not rushing a Q casting into a Bond -- if they are going to slowly introduce a minor character in that way, it would be more questionable than what they did do in Skyfall. Moneypenny is the one that seems forced. I think they got caught up trying to have her be a modern day renaissance woman and having her be of significance to the story that they made her come across as clunky (or inconsistent).
  • edited August 2015 Posts: 11,425
    I also meant rushed in that they introduced two new "old" characters - Q and MP - as well as a new M in one movie. Why cram all those intros into one movie?

    It would have been nice if MP or Q had been held back for the next film. Just my feeling.

    There is tremendous warmth for both characters and it would have been a real draw for SP if we knew it was going to be the movie where me meet Q for the first time, again, if you know what I mean.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,551
    I get what you mean Getafix, my initial reaction was that they could have waited to introduce Moneypenny in Spectre, but it really could have been either of them, especially because Spectre looks like it'll feature more gadgets than Skyfall.

    I haven't watched any teasers/trailers for Spectre, so don't ruin anything for me!
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    Is there a film in the Bond canon that is getting as much debate as SF right now? Very interesting. There are two deep divisions and lines of thinking on the film.
  • Posts: 12,473
    TripAces wrote: »
    Is there a film in the Bond canon that is getting as much debate as SF right now? Very interesting. There are two deep divisions and lines of thinking on the film.

    Quantum of Solace has been pretty heavily debated lately for its quality. A lot of people like it, a lot still dislike it. There's also the ongoing debate of how good a Bond film LTK is (most seem to like it, but I know a lot don't).
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,551
    It being the most recent Bond film also has an affect on the amount of discourse surrounding it, I'd have to think.
    The fans of Skyfall seem to really, really think it succeeds in a big way, and the detractors seem to think that Skyfall's failings are enormous and unforgivable. For whatever reason, Skyfall seems to be 'extreme' in this way, and the resulting opinions of it are also quite extreme.
    I don't know how to articulate what I'm trying to say well, I feel.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    It being the most recent Bond film also has an affect on the amount of discourse surrounding it, I'd have to think.
    The fans of Skyfall seem to really, really think it succeeds in a big way, and the detractors seem to think that Skyfall's failings are enormous and unforgivable. For whatever reason, Skyfall seems to be 'extreme' in this way, and the resulting opinions of it are also quite extreme.
    I don't know how to articulate what I'm trying to say well, I feel.

    It's the most divisive film in the canon.
  • Posts: 11,425
    RC7 wrote: »
    It being the most recent Bond film also has an affect on the amount of discourse surrounding it, I'd have to think.
    The fans of Skyfall seem to really, really think it succeeds in a big way, and the detractors seem to think that Skyfall's failings are enormous and unforgivable. For whatever reason, Skyfall seems to be 'extreme' in this way, and the resulting opinions of it are also quite extreme.
    I don't know how to articulate what I'm trying to say well, I feel.

    It's the most divisive film in the canon.

    I don't think the detractors necessarily thinks its the worst film in the series. It's just that we feel it's nowhere near as good as it has been made out to be.

    I am pretty sure that within a few years it will have dropped down the rankings. Look how Brosnan's films have fallen from grace.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Getafix wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    It being the most recent Bond film also has an affect on the amount of discourse surrounding it, I'd have to think.
    The fans of Skyfall seem to really, really think it succeeds in a big way, and the detractors seem to think that Skyfall's failings are enormous and unforgivable. For whatever reason, Skyfall seems to be 'extreme' in this way, and the resulting opinions of it are also quite extreme.
    I don't know how to articulate what I'm trying to say well, I feel.

    It's the most divisive film in the canon.

    I don't think the detractors necessarily thinks its the worst film in the series. It's just that we feel it's nowhere near as good as it has been made out to be.

    I am pretty sure that within a few years it will have dropped down the rankings. Look how Brosnan's films have fallen from grace.

    I agree with you. I don't believe it to be a 'top tier' Bond film personally. It's feels experimental and I applaud some of the risks they took with it, but I don't think it resides at the the apex of the series. I think it has elements that are top tier, including the cinematography, some brilliant direction at points, great acting at points and some great moments of dialogue. As a package I think it still falls some way short of CR, to compare it to another Craig entry.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    RC7 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    It being the most recent Bond film also has an affect on the amount of discourse surrounding it, I'd have to think.
    The fans of Skyfall seem to really, really think it succeeds in a big way, and the detractors seem to think that Skyfall's failings are enormous and unforgivable. For whatever reason, Skyfall seems to be 'extreme' in this way, and the resulting opinions of it are also quite extreme.
    I don't know how to articulate what I'm trying to say well, I feel.

    It's the most divisive film in the canon.

    I don't think the detractors necessarily thinks its the worst film in the series. It's just that we feel it's nowhere near as good as it has been made out to be.

    I am pretty sure that within a few years it will have dropped down the rankings. Look how Brosnan's films have fallen from grace.

    I agree with you. I don't believe it to be a 'top tier' Bond film personally. It's feels experimental and I applaud some of the risks they took with it, but I don't think it resides at the the apex of the series. I think it has elements that are top tier, including the cinematography, some brilliant direction at points, great acting at points and some great moments of dialogue. As a package I think it still falls some way short of CR, to compare it to another Craig entry.

    I love CR as much as SF. For me, though, even CR isn't exactly a perfect film. I found the Miami airport chase and action sequence to be way toooo long. I skip over it on DVD.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    TripAces wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    It being the most recent Bond film also has an affect on the amount of discourse surrounding it, I'd have to think.
    The fans of Skyfall seem to really, really think it succeeds in a big way, and the detractors seem to think that Skyfall's failings are enormous and unforgivable. For whatever reason, Skyfall seems to be 'extreme' in this way, and the resulting opinions of it are also quite extreme.
    I don't know how to articulate what I'm trying to say well, I feel.

    It's the most divisive film in the canon.

    I don't think the detractors necessarily thinks its the worst film in the series. It's just that we feel it's nowhere near as good as it has been made out to be.

    I am pretty sure that within a few years it will have dropped down the rankings. Look how Brosnan's films have fallen from grace.

    I agree with you. I don't believe it to be a 'top tier' Bond film personally. It's feels experimental and I applaud some of the risks they took with it, but I don't think it resides at the the apex of the series. I think it has elements that are top tier, including the cinematography, some brilliant direction at points, great acting at points and some great moments of dialogue. As a package I think it still falls some way short of CR, to compare it to another Craig entry.

    I love CR as much as SF. For me, though, even CR isn't exactly a perfect film. I found the Miami airport chase and action sequence to be way toooo long. I skip over it on DVD.

    I don't think any are perfect, but for me there are potentially five or six that possess a certain magic that elevates them. I feel CR has that, but I don't believe SF does. I felt the same after watching it for the first time at the premiere. I enjoyed it, but I didn't walk out thinking, 'I've just seen a classic'.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Getafix wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    It being the most recent Bond film also has an affect on the amount of discourse surrounding it, I'd have to think.
    The fans of Skyfall seem to really, really think it succeeds in a big way, and the detractors seem to think that Skyfall's failings are enormous and unforgivable. For whatever reason, Skyfall seems to be 'extreme' in this way, and the resulting opinions of it are also quite extreme.
    I don't know how to articulate what I'm trying to say well, I feel.

    It's the most divisive film in the canon.

    I don't think the detractors necessarily thinks its the worst film in the series. It's just that we feel it's nowhere near as good as it has been made out to be.

    I am pretty sure that within a few years it will have dropped down the rankings. Look how Brosnan's films have fallen from grace.

    I agree. For me, the way SF was praised was as if people hadn't seen or didn't know CR existed. The way many people, fans and the media were talking was as if SF was Craig's first Bond movie and a movie that came right after DAD.

    Sure, SF is a good movie but it wasn't that great. I have a hard time watching the movie past the point of Silva's island.

    As for the Brosnan era, apart from GE and a few scenes here and there, that era was complete trash overall but the one thing that's hard to dispute about Brosnan is, out of tge 6 actors, he joins Connery, Moore and possibly Lazenby as the Bond I'd definitely enjoy being and I think that's the main problem with the Craig era. Sure, he's a great Bond, he ranks number 2 for me but out of the 6, he's the Bond I'd least like to be if we look at the old saying of Bond being the man all men want to be.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I'd want to be Brosnan in GE perhaps, because shacking up with Natalya (without the incessant nagging about boy with toy & being alone) would make my year, but quite frankly I'd personally be embarrassed to be him in either DAD or TWINE.

    I'd rather be Connery or Moore any day of the week and twice on Sunday though. Those two just had so much fun working for her Majesty's Secret Service, and saved the world a couple of times while at it too. My heroes.

    I do get your point about the Craig era being a bit of a downer, from an aspirational fan's point of view.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Getafix wrote: »
    .

    I don't think the detractors necessarily thinks its the worst film in the series. It's just that we feel it's nowhere near as good as it has been made out to be.

    I am pretty sure that within a few years it will have dropped down the rankings. Look how Brosnan's films have fallen from grace.

    Spot-on on Skyfall. I am an outspoken critic of that movie because I was very disappointed of the final result. But it is my No 13 Bond which makes it far from the least good (I don't like to say worst).

    Absolutely not spot-on on Brosnan. Where did he fall from grace???
    Goldeneye pops up everywhere in Top 5 lists of about anybody.
    TND and TWINE are mostly somewhere in the middle of lists.
    Only DAD finishes mostly last.
    If Brosnan has fallen from grace then Moore has too after your logic.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited August 2015 Posts: 4,585
    I will say this about SF and then let it be fuel for further fire. :D

    The 75 minutes, from the beginning of the PTS to the moment Silva escapes, are the best 75 minutes of film slapped down in any Bond film. After that, the plot goes downhill a bit. But those 75 minutes are so damn good that they keep the movie afloat. It's in my top 4 on that alone.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,551
    TripAces wrote: »
    I will say this about SF and then let it be fuel for further fire. :D

    The 75 minutes, from the beginning of the PTS to the moment Silva escapes, are the best 75 minutes of film slapped down in any Bond film. After that, the plot goes downhill a bit. But those 75 minutes are so damn good that they keep the movie afloat. It's in my top 4 on that alone.

    I can really get on board with this. The exact moment of the shift for me would be as Silva begins to laugh in his cell.
  • edited August 2015 Posts: 12,837
    Getafix wrote: »
    I also meant rushed in that they introduced two new "old" characters - Q and MP - as well as a new M in one movie. Why cram all those intros into one movie?

    It would have been nice if MP or Q had been held back for the next film. Just my feeling.

    There is tremendous warmth for both characters and it would have been a real draw for SP if we knew it was going to be the movie where me meet Q for the first time, again, if you know what I mean.

    I couldn't disagree more with this. If anything they should have been introduced them sooner imo, I didn't like how they dragged out the origin story over three movies, felt pointless to me. There was absoloutely no reason that Moneypenny couldn't have been in CR, already a secretary. She could fill Villiers' role easily. But no because of the whole Bond Begins thing we have to introduce her in the third film and show her origin story instead.

    Actually I don't think this applies to Q though, thinking about it. He wasn't needed in CR and QoS and I like his introduction in SF: no needless origin/backstory, it's just (literally, even in the context of the film) he's the new Q. I was really worried about Q in SF with the hacker angle and everything but I was really pleased in the end, they did a great job staying true to the character while also making it a fresh take, and Wishaw was brilliant.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    TripAces wrote: »
    I will say this about SF and then let it be fuel for further fire. :D

    The 75 minutes, from the beginning of the PTS to the moment Silva escapes, are the best 75 minutes of film slapped down in any Bond film. After that, the plot goes downhill a bit. But those 75 minutes are so damn good that they keep the movie afloat. It's in my top 4 on that alone.

    Skyfall has a running time of 143 minutes.
    If a bit over half the movie is great and the rest is mediocre to awful then it just can't be in a Top 5 or even Top 10. That's just not enough.

    For me the movie is near perfect up to the point when Silva appears which is I think approx. 65 minutes into the movie.
    Silva practically ruins the movie, he is a joke, a bad copy of The Joker.
    And the end sequence in Skyfall is the worst and most stupid written piece of Bond ever.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    TripAces wrote: »
    I will say this about SF and then let it be fuel for further fire. :D

    The 75 minutes, from the beginning of the PTS to the moment Silva escapes, are the best 75 minutes of film slapped down in any Bond film. After that, the plot goes downhill a bit. But those 75 minutes are so damn good that they keep the movie afloat. It's in my top 4 on that alone.

    I can really get on board with this. The exact moment of the shift for me would be as Silva begins to laugh in his cell.

    I'm strangely in agreement. Brilliant first half or so. For me "it's called a radio" is the the beginning of the end.
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    I will say this about SF and then let it be fuel for further fire. :D

    The 75 minutes, from the beginning of the PTS to the moment Silva escapes, are the best 75 minutes of film slapped down in any Bond film. After that, the plot goes downhill a bit. But those 75 minutes are so damn good that they keep the movie afloat. It's in my top 4 on that alone.

    I can really get on board with this. The exact moment of the shift for me would be as Silva begins to laugh in his cell.

    I'm strangely in agreement. Brilliant first half or so. For me "it's called a radio" is the the beginning of the end.

    I've been saying it since the film came out. It builds nicely until they leave Silva's Island and then it all falls apart.

    It's like two separate movies. One is not bad and the other really pretty mediocre.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    I will say this about SF and then let it be fuel for further fire. :D

    The 75 minutes, from the beginning of the PTS to the moment Silva escapes, are the best 75 minutes of film slapped down in any Bond film. After that, the plot goes downhill a bit. But those 75 minutes are so damn good that they keep the movie afloat. It's in my top 4 on that alone.

    I can really get on board with this. The exact moment of the shift for me would be as Silva begins to laugh in his cell.

    I'm strangely in agreement. Brilliant first half or so. For me "it's called a radio" is the the beginning of the end.

    I've been saying it since the film came out. It builds nicely until they leave Silva's Island and then it all falls apart.

    It's like two separate movies. One is not bad and the other really pretty mediocre.

    That sounds like the same thing (?).
  • Posts: 12,473
    It seems to be generally regarded as mediocre, but I personally loved the finale to Skyfall. The last half hour was very enjoyable to me. My least favorite part is the section in London in between leaving Silva's Island and going to Scotland. Thought that was average. Otherwise I love the movie myself.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited August 2015 Posts: 4,585
    OK , since a breakdown may be needed on Skyfall's segments:

    Pre-title sequence: B-
    Titles: A+
    M and Mallory/MI6 explosion: A
    Bond in Turkey: A
    New Digs and Museum: A+
    Shanghai: A+
    Macau: Shaving scene and casino: A
    On board Chimera / Island: A
    Silva's capture and computer hack: B-
    Chase through London underground: C+ (Whishaw helps here)
    Shootout at the hearing / Bond's plan: C
    Driving to Skyfall / Preparations: B+
    Skyfall shottout / M's death: C-
    Bond on the roof / Moneypenny and M reveal: A



  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,551
    Agree with the above, except on board chimera and island is A+ with honours, and I'd bump up hearing shoot out / bonds plan and sky fall shootout / Ms death
  • MansfieldMansfield Where the hell have you been?
    edited August 2015 Posts: 1,263
    FoxRox wrote: »
    It seems to be generally regarded as mediocre, but I personally loved the finale to Skyfall. The last half hour was very enjoyable to me. My least favorite part is the section in London in between leaving Silva's Island and going to Scotland. Thought that was average. Otherwise I love the movie myself.
    I share this sentiment with the addition of the courtroom scene. The weakest part of the film for me is his escape and the subsequent chase barring a few moments like "He's keen to get home" and "Open the door." That part is where Silva displays his uncanny foreknowledge by planting explosives in the tube and Q's unnecessary explanation of how Silva was "years in the planning."

    Skyfall was possibly the best cinema experience I can remember having. The qualities I feel it succeeds in are important to me in a good film. With that being said, I will always hold Skyfall in high regard. The general audience may not maintain their opinion of Skyfall over time. The jury is still out on its final standing and even that can't be truly gauged on the pulse of this community alone, which only accounts for a diminutive focus group of a much broader fan base.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    Skyfall was a great film, the story not enough on it's own, but what is to come on Spectre, Skyfall was necessary. The Two back to back I feel are going to be a fine evenings viewing again, and again, and again. I can understand why some hardcore fans did not like Skyfall it is dark, the setting of grey London, its a far cry from the exotic locations were used to in a Bond movie. But I would still take dreary grey London and Skyfall over Space with Sir Roge or Iceland with Brosnan.
  • edited August 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Skyfall was a great film, the story not enough on it's own, but what is to come on Spectre, Skyfall was necessary. The Two back to back I feel are going to be a fine evenings viewing again, and again, and again. I can understand why some hardcore fans did not like Skyfall it is dark, the setting of grey London, its a far cry from the exotic locations were used to in a Bond movie. But I would still take dreary grey London and Skyfall over Space with Sir Roge or Iceland with Brosnan.

    It's primarily the story/plot and all over the place 2nd half I have issues with. I had wanted to see a Bond movie featuring extensive London locations for years but for me SF did not deliver what I wanted. Having Lived in London I did not feel SF exploited London very well and neither did it suggest the parts of London that I'd expect Bond to inhabit - Whitehall, Mayfair, Pall Mall, St James's etc. and the Tube chase was pretty lame.

    Better than DAd bit I'd actually prefer to watch MR tbh.
  • RC7RC7
    edited August 2015 Posts: 10,512
    Skyfall was a great film, the story not enough on it's own, but what is to come on Spectre, Skyfall was necessary. The Two back to back I feel are going to be a fine evenings viewing again, and again, and again. I can understand why some hardcore fans did not like Skyfall it is dark, the setting of grey London, its a far cry from the exotic locations were used to in a Bond movie. But I would still take dreary grey London and Skyfall over Space with Sir Roge or Iceland with Brosnan.

    I like the fact SF has a distinct feel, it doesn't need to offset the general dreariness with exoticism, but I feel it could have gone a little further in showing Bond living it up. There's little respite from the general psychological malaise that consumes most of the movie. Most of Fleming's darker moments were countered by moments of indulgence, we get a little time out, time to see the perks of the job. Bond just doesn't enjoy himself enough SF.

    I'd take MR any day.
    Getafix wrote: »
    I had wanted to see a Bond movie featuring extensive London locations for years but for me SF did not deliver what I wanted. Having Lived in London I did not feel SF exploited London very well

    Totally agree. I've discussed this in detail previously. They also didn't make the most of showing the other side of London, or the 'real' London as you might call it. It would have been nice to see the grubbiness of parts of South East London countered with the more lavish establishments in Mayfair and St. James's.

    I like the fact they shot at Rules for SP. I've been a few times and always thought it would be the kind of place 'M' would've eaten.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2015 Posts: 23,883
    One of the best parts of SF for me is the interaction between Severine and Bond in the casino, particularly this exchange:

    Severine: "Can you kill him?"
    Bond: "Yes"
    Severine: "Will you?"
    Bond: "Someone usually dies."

    Brilliant and gets me every time. It's a very non-committal answer (giving us insights into Bond's character), and you can tell she doesn't fully buy it, but she still takes the chance (no choice perhaps?) and leads him to Silva, thereby sealing her fate.

    It's the little character exchanges like the above that I enjoyed the most about SF, outside of the cinematography.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    I watched QOS yesterday and have only Skyfall to watch in my Bondathon.

    QOS slipped down to No. 22 in my list (before No 19) I explained it in detail.

    I wonder where Skyfall will end up in my ranking, having seen it only three times, two times at the cinema, once when the Blu-ray was released.
    Currently my No 13 Bond.
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