The Deplorable Sexism of Bond movies DN - TMWTGG

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Creasy47 wrote:
    I just don't really care for Lazenby, and feel that Moore is leagues better than him.
    Oh, of course he is, I was just speaking to the 'rough' aspect that Lazenby could do so well.
    I love LALD, TMWTGG, FYEO, OP & I like TSWLM a whole lot.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,978
    What does "3x???" mean that you posted on the last page?

    Speaking of the sexism, I notice Moore has no issue jumping from woman to woman at all, like keeping Goodnight hidden in the closet for two hours while he has sex with Anders in TMWTGG, or complimenting Naomi's body right in front of Anya in TSWLM.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Creasy47 wrote:
    What does "3x???" mean that you posted on the last page?
    Having site connection issues, for a moment there were 3, then 4 duplicates of my post.
    Creasy47 wrote:
    Speaking of the sexism, I notice Moore has no issue jumping from woman to woman at all, like keeping Goodnight hidden in the closet for two hours while he has sex with Anders in TMWTGG, or complimenting Naomi's body right in front of Anya in TSWLM.
    Yeah, some wacky stuff there. MWTGG - MR definitely had their goofy sexist moments...
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,978
    Oh, okay. Yeah, that's happened to me before, too.

    Oops, apologies! I forgot the thread only currently runs up to TMWTGG. Sorry to jump the gun on the topic.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    This thread is very flexible. :)>-
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,978
    chrisisall wrote:
    This thread is very flexible. :)>-

    Sounds good! I'll just leave it at that until we go from TSWLM onward. Very good thread idea, by the way.
  • Posts: 12,474
    ...I like Lazenby more than Moore...

    He just feels more like James Bond to me, and much more realistic. And I think LALD is better than DAF and TMWTGG, by a considerable amount.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,978
    @FoxRox, Lazenby used to do nothing for me, then I saw OHMSS once again many years back and loved him and the film, but upon my recent rewatching, I think my opinion stands once more that I don't care for him, and I'm just not that big of a fan of OHMSS. I definitely agree with you on LALD being better than those two, though, TMWTGG especially.

    Sorry to take this off topic a bit, @chrisisall. ;-)
  • Posts: 12,474
    Creasy47 wrote:
    @FoxRox, Lazenby used to do nothing for me, then I saw OHMSS once again many years back and loved him and the film, but upon my recent rewatching, I think my opinion stands once more that I don't care for him, and I'm just not that big of a fan of OHMSS. I definitely agree with you on LALD being better than those two, though, TMWTGG especially.

    Sorry to take this off topic a bit, @chrisisall. ;-)

    People will always be divided over Lazenby as Bond; he stands as my third favorite Bond actor, and will likely stay that way. Connery and Craig are at the top for me. LALD has the honor of being in my Top 10 (9 or 10), while TMTWGG is 17 and DAF is 18 right now for me.
  • Posts: 11,189
    The sexism in the early movies I can handle. True the "man talk" scene in GF wouldn't really happen in films now, but I don't think there was anything nasty about it.

    My problem is when the characters become soooo bimbo-ish it becomes excruciating and unbelievable (that's the main reason I can't stand Mary Goodnight in MWTGG).
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Rosie was that way for me in LALD. :-<
  • Posts: 4,622
    chrisisall wrote:
    So, with the settling of the matter of sexism in Bond franchise killings (not much), it comes down to non-death casual sexism in individual movies.
    For Bond's part:
    The biggest one for me was in TSWLM where Bond accepts the slave girl sex. Not cool IMO.
    The Dink slap, however awkward by today's standards, wasn't a big deal.
    Patricia at Shrublands wanted Bond; we all know it... just like Ms. Galore did.
    The various facial slaps were warranted to wake the women up to the seriousness of the situations.
    The arm twisting of Andrea was only a bit creepy due to Roger being uncomfortable playing it rough like Connery would, so he had a sort of inappropriate easy-going-ness to him that actually made him seem all the more sadistic.
    The bikini-top strangle was to a bad girl connected to Blofeld.

    One last note to those offended by Bond's semi-rape of Pussy:
    She was most definitely NOT an idiot. She was incredibly bright, in fact. She HAD to know she couldn't take Bond in a non-lethal 'Judo barn match'. That was her challenging him. Sexually. And she delighted in his 'winning' her. Hehe heh, you don't open your mouth to a man who's clearly not going to hurt you if you don't want to be deeply kissed.

    That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
    Yes, very well put regarding the Rog strong-arming of Andrea. That's it in a nutshell. It creeps IMO because Rog can't pull it off with authority for the reasons you present.
    The other slappy scene that I don't think quite works is the one where Sean slaps Tiff poolside. I only say this because Tiff is established as a sympathetic character already.
    We know that she is not a villain. But its a small quibble, because Sean does it to jar her to the reality of Plenty floating in the pool, and the deadly turn that events have taken, that now directly involve her.
    In fact, the poolside scene is very reminiscent of the Orient Express slap of Tatiana, after Kerim is found dead- again to wake the girl to the seriousness of what is going on.
    Although in the FRWL scene, Bond is trying to wake Tania out of her naivete, and also assure himself, once and for all, that she is indeed a dupe.
    With Tiffany, he is trying to dispel her of her mixed-loyalties and duplicitous self-serving ways, and wake her to the deadly seriousness of the situation.
    But still, as an audience, I do find both the Tatiana and Tiffany slaps to somewhat jar, because I know both girls to be "good" girls. Neither are villains. Rather they are pawns of villainy, both in need of a reality check that Bond delivers. It's how he delivers that jars.
    I think it is significant though that we got no more good-girl slappy, post TMWTGG. Maybe because Rog couldn't pull it off, or maybe society was just waking up to the notion that violence against women was a serious issue, so better not to have Bond hitting any girls, whose villainy wasn't already firmly established.

    The lesson of the Dink bum slap, is don't engage unwanted bum-slapping. Dink was fair game, as she and Bond had that kind of relationship. Dink's bum positively screamed slap me.
    What doesn't work is the bum-slapping of girls who aren't receptive to it, and I don't think much has really changed there. Even 1964-era Bond, I don't think could bum-slap on the first date, just out of the blue. Then again maybe he could get away with it. Sean-Bond could overwhelm women with his pure dangerous, but charming animal magnetism.
    A girl that dated Bond would probably be aware of his potential for such behaviour.

    Re Pussy, I think she might have thought she could best Bond in judo. She was very sure of her own skills. She knew Bond had skills, but I don't think she could be sure for sure, that he could match her judo. She had to play to find out.
    Anyway they were naturally attracted. The flirting started on the plane. It was just a matter of playing out the dance. It all came together in the barn.

    The Rog and the harem scene does creep, but only because Rog and Mr. Sheik are both so randy. Combine that with the girls being so exaggeratedly compliant and you've got cringe city.
    The two extremes clash. The scene seems to be utterly removed from reality, even within a Bond context.
    Compare with, Bond and Tiger and the geisha girls in YOLT. Those scenes seemed to ring much truer. The whole scenario was better developed.
    TSWLM harem scene I think was a bad imitation of the YOLT scene. The movies did have the same director.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    timmer wrote:
    The Rog and the harem scene does creep, but only because Rog and Mr. Sheik are both so randy. Combine that with the girls being so exaggeratedly compliant and you've got cringe city.
    The two extremes clash. The scene seems to be utterly removed from reality, even within a Bond context.
    Compare with, Bond and Tiger and the geisha girls in YOLT. Those scenes seemed to ring much truer.
    The big difference is that Tiger's girls were employees, and the Middle Eastern girls seemed, well, not-so-much so.
    Good comments @timmer!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited May 2014 Posts: 17,804
    sexiful double post
  • Posts: 2,341
    @timmer and @chrisisall
    I agree with you. The scenes in TSWLM versus the YOLT geisha scenes. The geishas are being paid for their services but that harem scene is glorifying slavery. Those girls are obviously victims of white slavery. Probably kidnapped by the likes of those characters in "Taken" and sold to the Arab sheiks (worthless motherfuckers)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    OHMSS69 wrote:
    the likes of those characters in "Taken" and sold to the Arab sheiks (worthless motherfuckers)
    Now now, we must be culturally sensitive here, @OHMSS69! The extreme subjugation of females is a time-honoured tradition in some cultures. Who are WE to make a moral judgement on this?

    *dark sarcasm*
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    chrisisall wrote:
    00Beast wrote:
    Political correctness is a joke.
    The partial point of my thread.

    PC is not a joke. It is about going along with any radical project the powers that be have up their sleeve at any given time, and the media make damn sure it works. People are so gullible it hurts.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited May 2014 Posts: 17,804
    When PC began, it was a backlash against actual insensitivity & ignorance, and I was loving it. Then it rather quickly turned into just one more tool to push agendas.
    Most movements get co-opted like that. :-<
  • There was a similar scene to TSWLM in FRWL, where Bond's heroics are rewarded with two Balkan lasses, presumably for sex, though as this is 1963 you can't be sure. There isn't the icky 'delve into its treasures' line though, and anyhow it's a young, handsome Connery rather than leathery old guy Moore. And it is a 'reward' rather than offered up like a free minibar. Nuances, nuances. TBF, Moore played Bond as a joke in many respects, so getting offended is a bit like complaining about Austin Powers' lechery.
  • Posts: 4,622
    There was a similar scene to TSWLM in FRWL, where Bond's heroics are rewarded with two Balkan lasses, presumably for sex, though as this is 1963 you can't be sure. There isn't the icky 'delve into its treasures' line though, and anyhow it's a young, handsome Connery rather than leathery old guy Moore. And it is a 'reward' rather than offered up like a free minibar. Nuances, nuances. TBF, Moore played Bond as a joke in many respects, so getting offended is a bit like complaining about Austin Powers' lechery.
    For sure, the depiction of women as rewards or spoils for men in both FRWL at the gypsy camp and in YOLT at the geisha house, fed into the whole Bond mystique and were both lifted very much from Fleming's writing. Plus there was the ethno-cultural patriarchy that both scenarios were rooted in. The scenarios were given a more developed context.
    However by the time we get to Rog's visit to the Sheik tent, its just icky. The scene comes out of the blue, and the Sheik seemed more Brit than Arab. I guess they were harem girls conscripted to hang around the tent and do the harem girl thing, but still there seemed no context. Rather it seemed like just a cheap attempt to replicate the old Connery-era macho mystique. IMO the scene went over like a lead balloon, but yes it is a bit like complaining about Austin Power's lechery.

  • Posts: 11,189
    Now I feel bad about smiling at Roger's comment about delving into Egypt's treasures.

    To be honest I got a slightly sour taste from Andrea and the scene when he pushes the child into the canal in MWTGG (even Rog has said he doesn't like that bit now he's a member of UNICEF).
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    BAIN123 wrote:
    the scene when he pushes the child into the canal in MWTGG (even Rog has said he doesn't like that bit now he's a member of UNICEF).
    The way I see it, the kid was a player, and good at surviving. The push over the side was in keeping with Bond's assessment of the kid's abilities in that way. Plus: no time to be nice to him.
    The Andrea thing, yeah, not so cool with that, but hey, Bond is a bastard at times, eh?
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    chrisisall wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    the scene when he pushes the child into the canal in MWTGG (even Rog has said he doesn't like that bit now he's a member of UNICEF).
    The way I see it, the kid was a player, and good at surviving. The push over the side was in keeping with Bond's assessment of the kid's abilities in that way. Plus: no time to be nice to him.
    The Andrea thing, yeah, not so cool with that, but hey, Bond is a bastard at times, eh?
    I'd be mad too If I was assigned to hangout with Mary Goodnight, though I wouldn't twist Andrea's arm. I'd say F it and lets go back to the USA. Solex? Who cares. :))

  • Posts: 7,653
    chrisisall wrote:
    She treated you like a sex object... 8-|

    Like I said she made my day.
    :D ;) :!!
  • edited May 2014 Posts: 512
    In some ways, TSWLM does not let up on the sexism. At the time it seemed laudable that Triple X is a smart, competent, cool Russian agent and not some Goodnight bimbo. But rewatching it, it seems Moore's Bond is very sexist, putting her down all the time like he just can't get to grips with the idea of a woman equal at all. The idea seems so amusing to him.

    Latterly, when on board the sub, the guy in charge offers the use of his shower. Anya's nostrils flare: "It is not necessary for you to show me special favours!" Quite right too. He replies: 'All the same, it might be better if I did...'. Now, I dunno. Is that funny? Is he saying, it would be better cos then I get to see you starkers in the shower... Or is it a mistimed joke, like she is being all bossy and rude, and he responds with only half-mock deference. Then, hey, it's okay, cos we get to see her tits in the next scene. I mean, can you imagine any such scene occurring today?

    In fairness, context is a lot, and Bond is goading Anya not necessarily because she is a woman, but because she is a Russian, and a KGB agent at that, not nice people at all, so she kind of has it coming. But today, while we regard Putin as a bad guy, it is just him, we don't really stereotype nations in that negative way so much. It is always assumed that they are just under the cosh of some fat-faced, tinpot dictator with an odd hairstyle (have no one particular in mind).
  • edited May 2014 Posts: 6,396
    In some ways, TSWLM does not let up on the sexism. At the time it seemed laudable that Triple X is a smart, competent, cool Russian agent and not some Goodnight bimbo. But rewatching it, it seems Moore's Bond is very sexist, putting her down all the time like he just can't get to grips with the idea of a woman equal at all. The idea seems so amusing to him.

    Latterly, when on board the sub, the guy in charge offers the use of his shower. Anya's nostrils flare: "It is not necessary for you to show me special favours!" Quite right too. He replies: 'All the same, it might be better if I did...'. Now, I dunno. Is that funny? Is he saying, it would be better cos then I get to see you starkers in the shower... Or is it a mistimed joke, like she is being all bossy and rude, and he responds with only half-mock deference. Then, hey, it's okay, cos we get to see her tits in the next scene. I mean, can you imagine any such scene occurring today?

    In fairness, context is a lot, and Bond is goading Anya not necessarily because she is a woman, but because she is a Russian, and a KGB agent at that, not nice people at all, so she kind of has it coming. But today, while we regard Putin as a bad guy, it is just him, we don't really stereotype nations in that negative way so much. It is always assumed that they are just under the cosh of some fat-faced, tinpot dictator with an odd hairstyle (have no one particular in mind).

    With regards to the put downs, Anya gives as good as she gets. In fact, she gets one over on Bond more often than most of the Bond girls in the series.

    Captain Carter offers Anya the use of his private bathroom because the alternative would be to use the communal showers along with the other sailors. I've never watched that scene and thought any different to be honest.
  • Oh, and regarding Andrea in Golden Gun, well, Moore's Bond is like the school prefect who, upon his promotion, fancies he can now act like the School Bully. Except, the school bully does at least have some natural authority, albeit according to the law of the jungle, that gets some respect. The school prefect is appointed, and that is how Moore's Bond comes across; Connery had to own the role and make it stellar, whereas Moore is the Chosen One and you know how that can work out.

    Talking of which, did anyone catch Ian 'Return of the Saint' Ogilvy in the Pythonesque Ripping Yarns on BBC4 a while back? Ogilvy played School Bully in this sendup of public school life, and did it well. It seems odd that at the time I saw Ogilvy as a second-rate Moore due to his Saint stint and TV prescence, he didn't quite break into movie stardom like Moore. Yet of course, Ogilvy was surely the better actor even if he didn't have Moore's physical stature. I mean, you have Ogilvy in the BBC classic I, Claudius co-starring George 'Sir Hilly' Baker, John Hurt, Derek Jacobi et al and you could not cast Moore in that. He was also in classics like The Witchfinder General with Vincent Price, nothing in Moore's portfolio matches those two, notwithstanding stuff like The Man Who Haunted Himself and The Rape of the Sabine Women...
  • Fair enough, WG, the point about Anya's shower arrangements might have been better made if there had been some lechy looking sailors looking on, then again it depends how long they'd been at sea, maybe Moore should have been the one in a private shower...

    I agree Anya puts one over Bond, it is just presented as if, wow, imagine a woman doing that! Though I should say, maybe I am going through a disgruntled phase, as it is only recently these objections have come to mind.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    In some ways, TSWLM does not let up on the sexism. At the time it seemed laudable that Triple X is a smart, competent, cool Russian agent and not some Goodnight bimbo. But rewatching it, it seems Moore's Bond is very sexist, putting her down all the time like he just can't get to grips with the idea of a woman equal at all. The idea seems so amusing to him.
    So, in other words, he is acting like the majority of the male population in the 1970's.
  • Jimmy Savile, Stuart Hall, Rolf Harris (allegedly)...

    But yeah, it is a product of the times, but some of this stuff comes out better than others. Personally I don't find much of the Connery stuff too risible, though it's a decade earlier (though having young gals making eyes at his creaky old self in NSNA was his wtf? moment for me).
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