Bond vs Bourne

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Comments

  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355


    A point raised in the video above by the interviewer (at 4:14) is that Bond now seems more adapted for our times. Craig even says it wasn't really a conscious decision to do, just to way it fell and happened to turn out.

    I believe the 21st Bond film was always going to be Casino Royale but when, for whatever reason, Bond was recast, the film became what it did due to Craig as EON having found their man wanted to please him and as said before becuase it's the type of film Craig likes to make, with character growth and a slightly damaged lead.

    I honestly think we would have got the Bond films the way they are now whenever Craig was playing Bond as that's who he is as an actor and what he likes to do, be it 1996 or 2006. Bourne was just there at the time to draw comparisons to.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2011 Posts: 15,718
    Yes, well I honestly doubt a rugged, physically fit actor like Craig would have been cast without Bourne... They'd probably have kept the more traditional Bond look. No way Craig would have been cast without Bourne. No way Bond would become Hulk Bond and Statham Bond without Bourne. Sure, Bond #6 would have been a better, more believable actor than Brosnan, but no way it would have been to the level Craig. We owe Craig to Bourne. Craig just doesn't look like the traditional Bond, and there is absolutly no way he would be chosen under more normal circumstances. The reboot happened because the franchise had to strike hard and loud. Without such a need, CR would never have been an origin story, Bond would never have such juvenile behavior, and would look more like the traditional Bond. CR would have been more of a FRWL, a relativly down-to-earth spy thriller, but without the Young Bond, Hulk Bond, broody Bond.
  • When watching Casino Royale, i never, not at all get a bourne-ifield style feel, i always get a classical bond style feel, but with Craig's tougher performance. Sure i get the bourne-ified feeling at times while watching Quantum of Solace, but if they stick to the style of Casino Royale, then they (In my eyes) have got a Bond film, not a 'Bourne' film.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    I won't deny Bourne's influence on the recent Bond outings, as well as Batman Begins' influence for that matter. But I don't believe this influence is as important as often mentioned. Since the 70s, the Bonds have been known to look around, see what's popular in pop culture and what's going on in world politics, and mix it together for the next 007 adventure. CR deals with terrorism and it presents us with an edgier Bond, a Bond who received the Jack Bauer treatment. But the outcome is fairly unique and proved exceptionally successful. So while I recognize certain elements imported from other franchises, they certainly don't bother me.

    As for Craig, I am not so sure we wouldn't have gotten him had it not been for Bourne. I believe that Barbara Broccoli was very enthusiastic about casting him and besides that, yes, he's different, but I don't recognize any Matt Damon quality in him. I agree that Craig's Bond isn't like Brosnan's Bond, but for all I know they decided, after DAD, to simply change direction altogether. I feel that the criticism they got for DAD is an underestimated factor in these discussions, whereas the whole Bourne thing get's too much attention. But that's just me.
  • Posts: 1,492
    I won't deny Bourne's influence on the recent Bond outings, as well as Batman Begins' influence for that matter. But I don't believe this influence is as important as often mentioned. Since the 70s, the Bonds have been known to look around, see what's popular in pop culture and what's going on in world politics, and mix it together for the next 007 adventure. CR deals with terrorism and it presents us with an edgier Bond, a Bond who received the Jack Bauer treatment. But the outcome is fairly unique and proved exceptionally successful. So while I recognize certain elements imported from other franchises, they certainly don't bother me.

    As for Craig, I am not so sure we wouldn't have gotten him had it not been for Bourne. I believe that Barbara Broccoli was very enthusiastic about casting him and besides that, yes, he's different, but I don't recognize any Matt Damon quality in him. I agree that Craig's Bond isn't like Brosnan's Bond, but for all I know they decided, after DAD, to simply change direction altogether. I feel that the criticism they got for DAD is an underestimated factor in these discussions, whereas the whole Bourne thing get's too much attention. But that's just me.
    Has this ever been confirmed with Babs, Mickey G, Purvis and Wade that Bourne was an influence on the Craig era? Or is it just fan conjecture?

    There is no real evidence is there?

    Bond has always ploughed its own furrow. Granted there have been a few pop cultrue references in the sixties and seventies films and one film in particular decided to jump aboard the Sci-Fi bandwagon but it has never followed trends for an entire era. You are giving this Bourne nonsense too much credence. Whenever the Broccolis have looked around for inspiration they went back to the books.

    After the OTTness of the Brosnan era they had a stroke of luck to have Casino Royale be avialable. That is the inspiration for the Craig era and Daniel Craig himself. Craig is not going to do a jokey louche Bond. He is not that kind of actor. He comes from the British school of realism. He is naturally going to be a tougher grittier Bond then Pierce who comes from TV glamour.

    To be honest, like Rog and Tim, Dan took the role, got it in a stranglehold and marched it in a direction he wanted.



  • LudsLuds MIA
    Posts: 1,986
    Has this ever been confirmed with Babs, Mickey G, Purvis and Wade that Bourne was an influence on the Craig era? Or is it just fan conjecture?

    There is no real evidence is there?
    There's as little confirmation from EON yet as much evidence that Bourne/MI's success affected CR than there was about Star Wars over Moonraker. You won't hear EON confirm either one, but it's no secret that Bond has followed suit to ensure survival. They set trends initially with the Connery era, but had to adapt to passing trends to survive. This isn't a problem as long as they mainly remain true to Bond's nature and satisfactory to their core audience.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    This isn't a problem as long as they mainly remain true to Bond's nature and satisfactory to their core audience.
    Which isn't us...
  • Posts: 1,492

    There's as little confirmation from EON yet as much evidence that Bourne/MI's success affected CR than there was about Star Wars over Moonraker. You won't hear EON confirm either one, but it's no secret that Bond has followed suit to ensure survival. They set trends initially with the Connery era, but had to adapt to passing trends to survive. This isn't a problem as long as they mainly remain true to Bond's nature and satisfactory to their core audience.

    So without evidence to back it up it is just conjecture?

    Bourne could have as much influence on Craigs Bond as The Wind in the Willows or Doctor Who and the Silurians..

    Its just hypothesising....

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2011 Posts: 15,718
    So without evidence to back it up it is just conjecture?

    Bourne could have as much influence on Craigs Bond as The Wind in the Willows or Doctor Who and the Silurians..

    Its just hypothesising....
    Bourne is an action film trilogy, a direct competitor to Bond, while Doctor Who poses no threat whatsoever, and isn't in the same genre. Why would Dr Who influence Bond ?? :-? Bourne on the other hand is much closer to Bond.

    Sorry @actonsteve, but your examples are well off course... ;-)
  • I won't deny Bourne's influence on the recent Bond outings, as well as Batman Begins' influence for that matter. But I don't believe this influence is as important as often mentioned. Since the 70s, the Bonds have been known to look around, see what's popular in pop culture and what's going on in world politics, and mix it together for the next 007 adventure. CR deals with terrorism and it presents us with an edgier Bond, a Bond who received the Jack Bauer treatment. But the outcome is fairly unique and proved exceptionally successful. So while I recognize certain elements imported from other franchises, they certainly don't bother me.

    As for Craig, I am not so sure we wouldn't have gotten him had it not been for Bourne. I believe that Barbara Broccoli was very enthusiastic about casting him and besides that, yes, he's different, but I don't recognize any Matt Damon quality in him. I agree that Craig's Bond isn't like Brosnan's Bond, but for all I know they decided, after DAD, to simply change direction altogether. I feel that the criticism they got for DAD is an underestimated factor in these discussions, whereas the whole Bourne thing get's too much attention. But that's just me.
    I think DarthDimi nails it. I still don't see the whole Bourne influence on Casino Royale (I refuted point-by-point someone's assertation that it did on another thread). But I would say that Casino Royale owes more to Batman Begins - if it owes anything to *any* one film. Given the number of times that the Bond films have changed, and the fact that they have often "gone back to basics" after a REALLY over-the-top film I think CR owes more to OHMSS, FYEO, or LTK than Bourne. Or it owes more to the year 2005 when it was being planned...

    As for Craig I think he got the role on his own merits and his performance has shown that. The people who complain that Craig doesn't look like "Fleming's Bond" should also be complaining about Moore then - with his light brown hair and lack of "cruel looking eyes and mouth". As for Craig being a "hulk Bond" (WTF?) or not sophisticated enough I really see him as a modern version of Connery - can wear a suit well but is also a two-fisted man's man.
  • edited June 2011 Posts: 1,492

    Bourne could have as much influence on Craigs Bond as The Wind in the Willows or Doctor Who and the Silurians..

    Its just hypothesising....
    Bourne is an action film trilogy, a direct competitor to Bond, while Doctor Who poses no threat whatsoever, and isn't in the same genre. Why would Dr Who influence Bond ?? :-? Bourne on the other hand is much closer to Bond.

    Sorry @actonsteve, but your examples are well off course... ;-)
    Thats the point of them.

  • LudsLuds MIA
    edited June 2011 Posts: 1,986
    Has this ever been confirmed with Babs, Mickey G, Purvis and Wade that Bourne was an influence on the Craig era? Or is it just fan conjecture?

    There is no real evidence is there?
    If you don't believe there's any truth to the fact that the Bond franchise was influenced by Bourne, explain this:

    Alexander Witt, who was a second unit director for Bourne Identity, a highly popular and critically acclaimed action/spy series rival was hired as second unit director for Casino Royale. Coincidence? Unlikely but possible.

    Dan Bradley, a second unit director for Bourne Supremacy (and later Ultimatum) was then hired as second unit director for Quantum of Solace. Coincidence again? Really?

    Listen, obviously Bourne wasn't the only reason the Bond franchise made massive changes after Die Another Day. Brosnan's salary demands, his age, his attitude, the criticism about DAD being over the top, getting the rights to make Casino Royale and it being the first novel and thus a perfect opportunity to hire a new actor and start fresh all played a role, no question, but to claim that since there's no acknowledgement from EON regarding Bourne's influence in CR and QOS, that it didn't play a role is ridiculous, even if only for the editing and action, is simply burying your head in the sand!

    The Bond franchise has always had to be reactionary towards popular trends, and popular films to survive. The drastic change towards a more believable and intense style is just the latest, before that were many others, like the Star Wars influenced Moonraker, or the Martial Arts / Jackie Chan type casting of Michele Yeoh in TND. There's nothing to be ashamed by this, Bond has always had to adapt itself to the times in order to survive!

  • edited June 2011 Posts: 1,492
    If you don't believe there's any truth to the fact that the Bond franchise was influenced by Bourne, explain this:

    Alexander Witt, who was a second unit director for Bourne Identity, a highly popular and critically acclaimed action/spy series rival was hired as second unit director for Casino Royale. Coincidence? Unlikely but possible.

    Dan Bradley, a second unit director for Bourne Supremacy (and later Ultimatum) was then hired as second unit director for Quantum of Solace. Coincidence again? Really?
    You know what Hollywood is like. When a star or director is "hot" he is in demand. I suspect they were hired because they were the best of the bunch. Until Mickey and Babs admit they were copying/influenced by Bourne I am not buying it. And they are the ones who have the final say.

    Casino Royale has an old style elegance that Mr Damon and his bunch could not hope to match.
    Listen, obviously Bourne wasn't the only reason the Bond franchise made massive changes after Die Another Day. Brosnan's salary demands, his age, his attitude, the criticism about DAD being over the top, getting the rights to make Casino Royale and it being the first novel and thus a perfect opportunity to hire a new actor and start fresh all played a role, no question, !
    I suspect these are the real reason to change direction rather then a slavish desire to copy Bourne.

  • LudsLuds MIA
    Posts: 1,986

    Casino Royale has an old style elegance that Mr Damon and his bunch could not hope to match.
    That's because they are Bond movies, and the returning Martin Campbell which was already proven to provide such class and elegance.

    You know what Hollywood is like. When a star or director is "hot" he is in demand. I suspect they were hired because they were the best of the bunch. Until Mickey and Babs admit they were copying/influenced by Bourne I am not buying it. And they are the ones who have the final say.
    Obviously until Bourne is dead and buried they'd never do it or it could be used against them. But 2 second unit directors in a row from Bourne, that's more than being "hot". These lads were hired to replicate the action they directed in Bourne.
  • Posts: 1,492

    Obviously until Bourne is dead and buried they'd never do it or it could be used against them. But 2 second unit directors in a row from Bourne, that's more than being "hot". These lads were hired to replicate the action they directed in Bourne.
    I often wonder if Bourne is more important and popular in North America then it is over this side of the pond. Its barely mentioned here and generally only on Bond sites. Is it really a cultural phenomenon? Star Wars was...back in 1977. It changed the face of cinema. But Bourne?

    I tend to think it has been forgotten already. And its importance overstated,

  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    I often wonder if Bourne is more important and popular in North America then it is over this side of the pond. Its barely mentioned here and generally only on Bond sites.
    I think you've only got to look at it's non US Box Office results to find out the answer is yes. Internationally, as far as the takings go, Bond is twice as big.
  • LudsLuds MIA
    edited June 2011 Posts: 1,986
    You may be on to something there steve, the main market to convince is always the US when it comes to Bond, the International market does better.

    Looking at those numbers, Babs & Mikey knew where to go. MI2 and Bourne has shown that the US public wanted believable and fast paced action.

    US Domestic Gross (Int'l Gross)

    2000-05 MI II 215.4M (331.0)
    2002-06 Identity 121.7M (92.4M)
    2002-11 Die Another Day 160.9M (271.0M)
    2004-07 Supremacy 176.2M (112.3M)
    2005-10 - Craig announced as Bond
    2006-05 MI III 134.0M (263.8M)
    2006-11 Casino Royale 167.4M (426.8M)
    2007-08 Ultimatum 227.5M (215.4M)
    2008-11 Quantum of Solace 168.4M (417.7M)

    In other words, the Bourne Franchise is just as significant as Bond in the states. Cultural phenomenon? No. But still, MI and Bourne have proved just as significant if not more than Bond in US box office, much more at peaks.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2011 Posts: 15,718
    Going past the Box Office revenues between Bond and Bourne, TWINE and DAD had 51% and 59% of positive reviews, while Identity and Supremacy had 83% and 81% of positive reviews, so evidently EON had to do something about it.

    Yes, CR was going to be B21, yes, Brosnan was not going to come back... But the whole reboot thing was done in answer to Bourne. EON would have prefered to simply recast and change the tone of the films had Bourne not posed a threat. The whole reboot thing was an extreme decision, and it wasn't decided out of thin air. EON would not make such risky decisions as rebooting and casting Craig just for the heck of it. There was a thread to Bond's believability, and Bourne was a serious contender, so something big had to happen.
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited June 2011 Posts: 4,521
    Casino Royale have the uncredit editor of Mi2. There should have hired him already for DAD, but insteed there hired Christian Wagner the first credit editor of Mi2.

    Dutch Box Office results over the whole year:

    () The position of the year list. For example Batman Begins 37 means the 37th place of the year 2005.

    Feb 2002 Spy Game $924,335 (40)
    Sep 2002 Identity $2,016,953 (19)
    Aug 2002 Jack Ryan: The Sum of All Fears $1,141,337 (33)
    Oct 2002 Triple X $2,411,188 (15)
    Jan 2003 DAD $7,348,890 (4) Ticket prices: € 7,70-8,25
    April 2003 Johnny English $4,235,689 (11)
    Aug 2003 Tomb Raider 2 $1,431,757 (34)
    Oct 2003 Bad Boys 2 $3,577,612 (13)
    Sep 2004 Supremacy $2,202,967 (24)
    Nov 2004 The Incredibles $5,708,600 (6)
    Apr 2005 Triple X Next Level $503,525 (73)
    July 2005 Mr. & Mrs. Smith $4,585,304 (8)
    July 2005 Batman Begins $1,404,056 (37)
    May 2006 Mi3 $2,739,424 (15)
    Nov 2006 CR $10,559,951 (2) Ticket Prices: € 9,00-€9,50
    June 2007 Die Hard 4 $3,192,702 (16)
    Sep 2007 Ultimatum $3,812,124 (13)
    Oct 2007 Kingdom $1,133,257 (44)
    Jan 2008 Kite Runner $7,147,285 (6)
    May 2008 Jones 4 $6,858,076 (7)
    July 2008 TDK $7,220,399 (5)
    July 2008 Mamma Mia $9,812,663 (1)
    Nov 2008 Body of Lies $1,097,269 (54)
    Nov 2008 QOS $8,856,996 (2) Ticket Prices: € 10,00

  • Posts: 2,491
    how Mamma Mia can be in same list with all the action movies?
  • edited June 2011 Posts: 1,492

    Yes, CR was going to be B21, yes, Brosnan was not going to come back... But the whole reboot thing was done in answer to Bourne. E.
    Well, I would say the whole reboot thing is because CR became available and Pierce was too old to play a man being welded inro his job.

    You have also to remember that Eon is based in Mayfair. Babs and Mickey are over here for alot of the year as most of the auditioning and hiring and firing is done over here. Let alone the script. I am sure they looked at the market share and I am sure MGM executives pointed it out to them but I am not convinced it was a major thing with them.

    But Bourne isnt very big over here. Bond has the primetime Saturday afternoon spot on the major terrestrial channels at the moment. Bourne pops up once every blue moon on a digital channel.

  • Posts: 5,767
    This isn't a problem as long as they mainly remain true to Bond's nature and satisfactory to their core audience.

    Hmm, I think neither was the case with CR, yet it was a massive hit.

    If Bourne inspires Bond to a new perspective at action sequences I´m fine. If Bourne inspires Bond to get hunted all the time by his own bosses, or if Bond should lose his memory in a different way than described in the TMWTGG novel, I´m not gonna be happy.
  • LudsLuds MIA
    Posts: 1,986
    This isn't a problem as long as they mainly remain true to Bond's nature and satisfactory to their core audience.

    Hmm, I think neither was the case with CR, yet it was a massive hit.

    If Bourne inspires Bond to a new perspective at action sequences I´m fine. If Bourne inspires Bond to get hunted all the time by his own bosses, or if Bond should lose his memory in a different way than described in the TMWTGG novel, I´m not gonna be happy.
    :-)) I don't think that we have to worry about EON going full tilt and making Bond amnesic ;)
  • edited June 2011 Posts: 5,767
    :-)) I don't think that we have to worry about EON going full tilt and making Bond amnesic ;)
    Well, I admit I was a little worried when Eon spoke about the ball beating scene being in CR, shortly after Ethan Hunt got maltreated in MI:3. Luckily, they completely turned it around and, instead of masochistic voyeurism, made it into a massive shot of testosterone, with Bond asking Le Chiffre to scratch his little itch down there.
    As for amnesia, I´d say it´s a little late for that now, but something like in the TMWTGG novel could be very intriguing.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2011 Posts: 15,718
    Adapting the amnesia featured in TMWTGG novel would be a huge error. No-one has read this novel, or even heard of it's existence !! So obviously most of the audience would think Bond is copying Bourne, and every media stunt by EON to try and explain the TMWTGG novel came first will be futile.
  • edited June 2011 Posts: 5,767
    Very much so.
    But still the idea how Fleming described it was good. Maybe in 15 years or so ;-) .
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2011 Posts: 15,718
    Well I mean, who has ever read or even heard of the Fleming novels ? I think it would be a mistake to adapt something that will be interpreted as copying another franchise instead of coming from the original material that no-one has read or even heard of.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    Well I mean, who has ever read or even heard of the Fleming novels ?
    More people than you think. Many even casual fans have heard of Fleming and know he wrote Bond novels.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2011 Posts: 15,718
    Well I mean, who has ever read or even heard of the Fleming novels ?
    More people than you think. Many even casual fans have heard of Fleming and know he wrote Bond novels.
    Doubt it. The majority of the audience are every Joe's, casual moviegoers, who have never read or heard of Fleming. Bond films are not made for us, made a little bit for casual Bond fans, and mostly made for the masses, who, I'm sorry to say, have never read or heard of the Fleming novels. Bond films are made for people who don't know the names of the 2 actors that made 1 and 2 films (Lazenby and Dalton), and cannot name their 3 movies. They only can name Connery, Moore, Brosnan and Craig, and there are movies from these 4 actors that the majority can't remember the titles.

    Honestly, barely no-one hangs around on niche-group forums like this one.

  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Movie making evolves. It changes. Movie makers who are born to be led will copy styles, incorporate the changes into their own natural ways. Directors who are born to lead will create their own styles (as Ternece Young did).

    The problem has always been that Bond in the 60s pioneered the action/adventure film and everyone copied it. Eventually talented film makers like Speilberg did such good copies that they improved the genre, until the day came when the Bond makers began to play catch up.

    However now its nip and tuck. Bond still shows it can be influenced by other films, and equally is still capable of creating moments of cinematic magic that people talk about for years after (Craig emerging from the sea is an iconic movie moment regardless of what anoracs think about it).

    Why does it bother some people so much? I agree with thelordflasheart, Craig is the nearest we have had to Connery, and if people think Craig isn't good enough for Fleming's legacy, then neither was Connery.

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