SKYFALL: Is this the best Bond film?

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Comments

  • edited April 2020 Posts: 3,327
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes, most of it is about the prose. So if you want have the experience of a Bond novel on screen... read a Bond novel. It's not happening.

    This is the the thing though. It has happened before, and not that long ago either. It's why I keep banging on about LTK, because I get a similar experience to that as I do reading a Bond book.

    CR also gives off a similar experience, for me. That was one of the few times in a Bond film were we saw Bond screaming out in pain at being tortured, then in a period of hospitalised recovery, which pretty much occurred in just about every novel (if you can ignore the travesty of DAD's opening torture and Brozza in his Castaway recovery beard).

    We obviously are never going to get the exact same experiences from watching the films, but we do get glimpses of the books occasionally. The quieter moments of Bond travelling reflect the books - Bond arriving at an airport, scouring his hotel room for bugs - actually most times we see Bond in his hotel room evoke the books - one of the reasons why I like Dr. No, LALD, OHMSS and TMWTGG so much.

    I am encouraged by some of the shots we have seen in the NTTD trailer, with Bond in Jamaica. These look like those quieter book moments I describe.
  • zebrafishzebrafish <°)))< in Octopussy's garden in the shade
    Posts: 4,341
    Sorry if this has been asked before, but what was the point of having Patrice shoot the buyer of the stolen painting? Obviously Severine got hold of the painting and showed it to him, probably to sell it. The fact that Patrice was to be paid in the casino suggests that she employed him. If she wants money for the painting, why shoot the buyer? If she wanted to have the buyer killed in the first place and the painting is just to lure him to the hotel room, why not shoot him there? Is anything of this explained in the film?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    zebrafish wrote: »
    Sorry if this has been asked before, but what was the point of having Patrice shoot the buyer of the stolen painting? Obviously Severine got hold of the painting and showed it to him, probably to sell it. The fact that Patrice was to be paid in the casino suggests that she employed him. If she wants money for the painting, why shoot the buyer? If she wanted to have the buyer killed in the first place and the painting is just to lure him to the hotel room, why not shoot him there? Is anything of this explained in the film?

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2020 Posts: 16,382
    zebrafish wrote: »
    Sorry if this has been asked before, but what was the point of having Patrice shoot the buyer of the stolen painting? Obviously Severine got hold of the painting and showed it to him, probably to sell it. The fact that Patrice was to be paid in the casino suggests that she employed him. If she wants money for the painting, why shoot the buyer? If she wanted to have the buyer killed in the first place and the painting is just to lure him to the hotel room, why not shoot him there? Is anything of this explained in the film?

    Yeah I never understood that: or indeed how he managed not to put a hole in the painting! :)

    Maybe it was some sort of more complicated situation where the people in the room thought she was working as a middle person, putting the buyer in touch with them who owned the painting, and when the buyer gets killed they get scared off so she can take the painting? I don't know, but there must be some reason for him not to be in the room which suggests she's not working with the others in the room. I don't quite get it myself.

    It is fun that it reappears very briefly in Madeline's room in Spectre though! :D
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    mtm wrote: »
    It is fun that it reappears very briefly in Madeline's room in Spectre though! :D

    I never noticed that before!
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited April 2020 Posts: 7,547
    zebrafish wrote: »
    Sorry if this has been asked before, but what was the point of having Patrice shoot the buyer of the stolen painting? Obviously Severine got hold of the painting and showed it to him, probably to sell it. The fact that Patrice was to be paid in the casino suggests that she employed him. If she wants money for the painting, why shoot the buyer? If she wanted to have the buyer killed in the first place and the painting is just to lure him to the hotel room, why not shoot him there? Is anything of this explained in the film?

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool

    Also known in some circles as a "rad herring" :))
    mtm wrote: »
    It is fun that it reappears very briefly in Madeline's room in Spectre though! :D

    I never noticed that before!

    That is actually very cool, and I had never noticed it before.

    https://www.thebondbulletin.com/the-paintings-in-spectre/

    Very interesting read. Maybe Blofled stole many priceless paintings such as 'woman with a fan' and 'le pigeon aux petits pois' and uses them to lure prospective wealthy buyers, and their money, into positions where he's able to assassinate them and take the money. Just another revenue stream for Spectre.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    mtm wrote: »
    It is fun that it reappears very briefly in Madeline's room in Spectre though! :D

    I never noticed that before!

    Yes I had to have it pointed out as it's extremely blink-and-miss-it. But it is a lot of fun, and a very nice little easter egg to make the 'author of pain' stuff slightly more plausible :)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2020 Posts: 16,382

    Very interesting read. Maybe Blofled stole many priceless paintings such as 'woman with a fan' and 'le pigeon aux petits pois' and uses them to lure prospective wealthy buyers, and their money, into positions where he's able to assassinate them and take the money. Just another revenue stream for Spectre.

    Heh! Fantastic: I didn't know about the Picasso. Lovely touch.

    Yeah there's something there, isn't there? I'd like to know what the idea is behind the con. It's actually quite Fleming-ish to have a little almost self-contained side story in there which ends with murder. You could imagine him spending a few paragraphs describing how the plan has worked over time. Plus of course Patrice's assassination method has its routes in Bond's first or second kill from the Casino Royale novel.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    Well if anyone is bored during quarantine and would to watch or share my Skyfall edit that would be great :D :D

  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited April 2020 Posts: 4,585
    zebrafish wrote: »
    Sorry if this has been asked before, but what was the point of having Patrice shoot the buyer of the stolen painting? Obviously Severine got hold of the painting and showed it to him, probably to sell it. The fact that Patrice was to be paid in the casino suggests that she employed him. If she wants money for the painting, why shoot the buyer? If she wanted to have the buyer killed in the first place and the painting is just to lure him to the hotel room, why not shoot him there? Is anything of this explained in the film?

    This is pure speculation on my part: but Patrice was being played by Silva as much as MI6. He was a pawn. The job in Shanghai wasn't necessary, and neither was the stealing of the hard drive; Silva had the means to hack into MI6--even off a laptop in Istanbul--and get that list. Instead, Patrice is sent off to Shanghai on a red herring so someone in MI6 will chase after him. Just like they did in Istanbul. Notice that Tanner knew where Patrice would be. Hard to fathom that an assassination attempt and Patrice's movements would be that easy to uncover. But they were.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I think the key thing to bear in mind is not to dig too deep into the SF plot as very little of it stands up to scrutiny. Having said that, this plot point is one of those that doesn't bother me. Bond follows him. Patecie is on a job. Who cares really. It doesn't really matter.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think the key thing to bear in mind is not to dig too deep into the SF plot as very little of it stands up to scrutiny. Having said that, this plot point is one of those that doesn't bother me. Bond follows him. Patecie is on a job. Who cares really. It doesn't really matter.


    And the result is one of the best scenes in the franchise
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think the key thing to bear in mind is not to dig too deep into the SF plot as very little of it stands up to scrutiny. Having said that, this plot point is one of those that doesn't bother me. Bond follows him. Patecie is on a job. Who cares really. It doesn't really matter.

    Once it's established that Silva is a point-and-click villain, who thinks all that "running around is so dull," then all of it not only stands up to scrutiny, but makes it a fascinating film to dissect. Silva's motives and methods negin to make sense.
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 11,425
    TripAces wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think the key thing to bear in mind is not to dig too deep into the SF plot as very little of it stands up to scrutiny. Having said that, this plot point is one of those that doesn't bother me. Bond follows him. Patecie is on a job. Who cares really. It doesn't really matter.

    Once it's established that Silva is a point-and-click villain, who thinks all that "running around is so dull," then all of it not only stands up to scrutiny, but makes it a fascinating film to dissect. Silva's motives and methods negin to make sense.

    Point and click villains are inherently dull. That's the point at which the film loses its way IMO. Up until the death of Berenice it's reasonably okay. I find the whole London part really underwhelming. The final act is an interesting idea but I just don't get grabbed by it. And since it's been pointed out I can't get Home Alone out of my head.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Getafix wrote: »
    And since it's been pointed out I can't get Home Alone out of my head.

    That's definitely your problem.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited April 2020 Posts: 6,296
    TripAces wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think the key thing to bear in mind is not to dig too deep into the SF plot as very little of it stands up to scrutiny. Having said that, this plot point is one of those that doesn't bother me. Bond follows him. Patecie is on a job. Who cares really. It doesn't really matter.

    Once it's established that Silva is a point-and-click villain, who thinks all that "running around is so dull," then all of it not only stands up to scrutiny, but makes it a fascinating film to dissect. Silva's motives and methods negin to make sense.

    IMHO, it's too easy to explain the many plot holes that have already occurred throughout the story in that manner.
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 7,507
    TripAces wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think the key thing to bear in mind is not to dig too deep into the SF plot as very little of it stands up to scrutiny. Having said that, this plot point is one of those that doesn't bother me. Bond follows him. Patecie is on a job. Who cares really. It doesn't really matter.

    Once it's established that Silva is a point-and-click villain, who thinks all that "running around is so dull," then all of it not only stands up to scrutiny, but makes it a fascinating film to dissect. Silva's motives and methods negin to make sense.

    I am a passionate fan of Skyfall, but to claim Silva's plan makes sense is a stretch too far.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited April 2020 Posts: 4,585
    jobo wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think the key thing to bear in mind is not to dig too deep into the SF plot as very little of it stands up to scrutiny. Having said that, this plot point is one of those that doesn't bother me. Bond follows him. Patecie is on a job. Who cares really. It doesn't really matter.

    Once it's established that Silva is a point-and-click villain, who thinks all that "running around is so dull," then all of it not only stands up to scrutiny, but makes it a fascinating film to dissect. Silva's motives and methods negin to make sense.

    I am a passionate fan of Skyfall, but to claim Silva's plan makes is a stretch too far.

    Give me time. I'll convince you. It all makes sense. LOL
    echo wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think the key thing to bear in mind is not to dig too deep into the SF plot as very little of it stands up to scrutiny. Having said that, this plot point is one of those that doesn't bother me. Bond follows him. Patecie is on a job. Who cares really. It doesn't really matter.

    Once it's established that Silva is a point-and-click villain, who thinks all that "running around is so dull," then all of it not only stands up to scrutiny, but makes it a fascinating film to dissect. Silva's motives and methods negin to make sense.

    IMHO, it's too easy to explain the many plot holes that have already occurred throughout the story in that manner.

    Actually, no. It's not.

    The entire motor of the film boils down to Severine's line: "It's amazing the panic you can cause with a single computer."

    It seems like a throwaway line. But it is the key to the film's plot and theme.

    There is a sad irony in Silva's need to humiliate M through cyber warfare, but yet kill her in a way that is personal. He has the means to do the former but not the latter, and he is too narcissistic to realize it. SF deals with this theme perfectly: note Q's discusson about "sooner or later a trigger has to be pulled" and that Bond's Walther makes more of a "personal statement."




  • Posts: 1,680
    TripAces wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think the key thing to bear in mind is not to dig too deep into the SF plot as very little of it stands up to scrutiny. Having said that, this plot point is one of those that doesn't bother me. Bond follows him. Patecie is on a job. Who cares really. It doesn't really matter.

    Once it's established that Silva is a point-and-click villain, who thinks all that "running around is so dull," then all of it not only stands up to scrutiny, but makes it a fascinating film to dissect. Silva's motives and methods negin to make sense.

    I am a passionate fan of Skyfall, but to claim Silva's plan makes is a stretch too far.

    Give me time. I'll convince you. It all makes sense. LOL
    echo wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think the key thing to bear in mind is not to dig too deep into the SF plot as very little of it stands up to scrutiny. Having said that, this plot point is one of those that doesn't bother me. Bond follows him. Patecie is on a job. Who cares really. It doesn't really matter.

    Once it's established that Silva is a point-and-click villain, who thinks all that "running around is so dull," then all of it not only stands up to scrutiny, but makes it a fascinating film to dissect. Silva's motives and methods negin to make sense.

    IMHO, it's too easy to explain the many plot holes that have already occurred throughout the story in that manner.

    Actually, no. It's not.

    The entire motor of the film boils down to Severine's line: "It's amazing the panic you can cause with a single computer."

    It seems like a throwaway line. But it is the key to the film's plot and theme.

    There is a sad irony in Silva's need to humiliate M through cyber warfare, but yet kill her in a way that is personal. He has the means to do the former but not the latter, and he is too narcissistic to realize it. SF deals with this theme perfectly: note Q's discusson about "sooner or later a trigger has to be pulled" and that Bond's Walther makes more of a "personal statement."




    Or not pulled. Which does on the bridge with oberhauser
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    TripAces wrote: »
    zebrafish wrote: »
    Sorry if this has been asked before, but what was the point of having Patrice shoot the buyer of the stolen painting? Obviously Severine got hold of the painting and showed it to him, probably to sell it. The fact that Patrice was to be paid in the casino suggests that she employed him. If she wants money for the painting, why shoot the buyer? If she wanted to have the buyer killed in the first place and the painting is just to lure him to the hotel room, why not shoot him there? Is anything of this explained in the film?

    This is pure speculation on my part: but Patrice was being played by Silva as much as MI6. He was a pawn. The job in Shanghai wasn't necessary, and neither was the stealing of the hard drive; Silva had the means to hack into MI6--even off a laptop in Istanbul--and get that list. Instead, Patrice is sent off to Shanghai on a red herring so someone in MI6 will chase after him. Just like they did in Istanbul. Notice that Tanner knew where Patrice would be. Hard to fathom that an assassination attempt and Patrice's movements would be that easy to uncover. But they were.

    That's pretty cool, yeah I'd not thought of it like that.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    Tuck91 wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think the key thing to bear in mind is not to dig too deep into the SF plot as very little of it stands up to scrutiny. Having said that, this plot point is one of those that doesn't bother me. Bond follows him. Patecie is on a job. Who cares really. It doesn't really matter.

    Once it's established that Silva is a point-and-click villain, who thinks all that "running around is so dull," then all of it not only stands up to scrutiny, but makes it a fascinating film to dissect. Silva's motives and methods negin to make sense.

    I am a passionate fan of Skyfall, but to claim Silva's plan makes is a stretch too far.

    Give me time. I'll convince you. It all makes sense. LOL
    echo wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think the key thing to bear in mind is not to dig too deep into the SF plot as very little of it stands up to scrutiny. Having said that, this plot point is one of those that doesn't bother me. Bond follows him. Patecie is on a job. Who cares really. It doesn't really matter.

    Once it's established that Silva is a point-and-click villain, who thinks all that "running around is so dull," then all of it not only stands up to scrutiny, but makes it a fascinating film to dissect. Silva's motives and methods negin to make sense.

    IMHO, it's too easy to explain the many plot holes that have already occurred throughout the story in that manner.

    Actually, no. It's not.

    The entire motor of the film boils down to Severine's line: "It's amazing the panic you can cause with a single computer."

    It seems like a throwaway line. But it is the key to the film's plot and theme.

    There is a sad irony in Silva's need to humiliate M through cyber warfare, but yet kill her in a way that is personal. He has the means to do the former but not the latter, and he is too narcissistic to realize it. SF deals with this theme perfectly: note Q's discusson about "sooner or later a trigger has to be pulled" and that Bond's Walther makes more of a "personal statement."




    Or not pulled. Which does on the bridge with oberhauser

    Yes, that theme continued in SP. M makes mention of it with C.
  • edited June 2020 Posts: 4,409
    Roger Deakins has some rather cutting comments to make about the Bond series here:


    I get that he isn't a Bond fan. He's clearly someone who likes the type of movies he shoots, which are often more thoughtful, elegant character-based pieces. All the fuss and 'silliness' (his word, not mine) of Bond probably felt too frivolous. I suppose he thought the franchise wasn't known for it's artistic merits or in-depth characters (maybe he had just watched DAD...lol).

    Though he does come across as a bit of a sourpuss. Channelling his inner Professor Yaffle.

    Nonetheless, SF is bloody gorgeous

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited June 2020 Posts: 8,183
    Even if he wasn't a fan, I'm glad he gave it a crack with SF and didn't phone it in. He took the job and worked on it like the professional he is. It also clarifies why he didn't come back. At the time it was said he simply didn't want to repeat what he did with SF, which I guess indicates that he thinks of Bond no differently than a lot of filmmakers think of Marvel films.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited June 2020 Posts: 4,585
    Roger Deakins has some rather cutting comments to make about the Bond series here:


    I get that he isn't a Bond fan. He's clearly someone who likes the type of movies he shoots, which are often more thoughtful, elegant character-based pieces. All the fuss and 'silliness' (his word, not mine) of Bond probably felt too frivolous. I suppose he thought the franchise wasn't known for it's artistic merits or in-depth characters (maybe he had just watched DAD...lol).

    Though he does come across as a bit of a sourpuss. Channelling his inner Professor Yaffle.

    Nonetheless, SF is bloody gorgeous

    EQucLjQWoAApW1L?format=jpg&name=large
    EQucLjLWkAAhTOv?format=jpg&name=medium
    EQucLjQX0AEQuGL?format=jpg&name=medium
    ETl957EWkAIw1Rl?format=jpg&name=large
    CsloDfFWAAESmr2?format=jpg&name=large
    EZZMsOCXkAEW5-F?format=jpg&name=large

    There is a separate thread, asking whether or not Casino Royale is a masterpiece. In my mind, it can't be considered such when two Bond films later, Mendes and Deakins showed what masterful filmmaking looks like. CR is arguably the better story, with a better Bond. It's a fantastic script. But SF is the better film. In the video below, Mendes explains how he convinced Deakins to come on board. He also gives some credit to Campbell for his recreation of Bond that he was able to then play around with.

  • Posts: 1,394
    Skyfall is a great looking movie il give it that.

    But its just a poor film otherwise with a laughable screenplay.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Skyfall is a great looking movie il give it that.

    But its just a poor film otherwise with a laughable screenplay.

    imho, it's the best original screenplay in the series.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    TripAces wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Skyfall is a great looking movie il give it that.

    But its just a poor film otherwise with a laughable screenplay.

    imho, it's the best original screenplay in the series.

    I agree, I do wish though they had tightened up the story regarding Silva's "years in the planning" escape.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited June 2020 Posts: 5,970
    TripAces wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Skyfall is a great looking movie il give it that.

    But its just a poor film otherwise with a laughable screenplay.

    imho, it's the best original screenplay in the series.

    I agree, I do wish though they had tightened up the story regarding Silva's "years in the planning" escape.
    That's where the script loses me too, but to me apart from Casino Royale, Skyfall is the only film that could and should be applauded for its writing. From thematics to dialogue, it's one of the best, if not the best - with Casino Royale being its biggest competitor.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Deakins is supercool, I didn't realise until I saw him pop up at the Oscars what a complete dude he is.

    I think it's rather refreshing to hear someone who's worked on one not trot out the old 'oh wow I've been a Bond fan since I was a kid!' story! :)
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited June 2020 Posts: 5,970
    mtm wrote: »
    Deakins is supercool, I didn't realise until I saw him pop up at the Oscars what a complete dude he is.

    I think it's rather refreshing to hear someone who's worked on one not trot out the old 'oh wow I've been a Bond fan since I was a kid!' story! :)
    It can feel like people just say that sometimes. If I was ever to get the chance to work on a James Bond film in the future, I would not be able to keep my cool.
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